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Joined: Aug 2020
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journeyman
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Originally Posted by Annyliese
I hope I cleared that last thing up, I'm not totally satisfied with how I worded it. I'm notoriously bad at conversing frown


Annyliese,

For starters for my part, please allow me to respond with a resounding 'on the contrary' here - I actually had intended to make a reply to your original response myself (and doing so below), but wanted to wait until I got back home instead of via mobile to try and do so. But the thing above all else I wanted to say before bringing my thoughts to the table, was to just give you a huge thanks for making such a demonstrative constructive and reasoned approach to presenting possible differing perspective or opinion on a subject like this. Your post/response IMO should be the poster child example of the right way to attempt to interject a different viewpoint, and I just wanted to say I for one appreciated it very much.


Originally Posted by Annyliese
if someone buys the game under the impression that the game will come out as it has currently be seen, they may end up disappointed with the purchase when the finished version of the game is patched in, or even just on one of the larger EA updates. This is a level of uncertainty that makes it a risky (even if only to a small degree) consumer decision.


I would agree with this point, if Larian (or any company in similar shoes) had not or were not also doing their due diligence to temper and manage expectations for the potential customer/consumer base going in. Any ethical company selling a product should bear a responsibility to properly convey in truth and transparency the nature of their product and what they're selling, and I and most feel Larian not only has demonstrated that sort of character, but has publicly stated (as Raze has already interected already before I got around to responding) numerous times that EA isn't. Swen himself has actually answered the question of EA more than once by immediately leading in with something along the lines of (paraphrasing), 'Well, I'll tell you what EA is not' or 'I'll tell you who we *don't* want participating in EA', etc.

So, that leads to the other side of the equation, and something that's equally important to bear out: the responsibility in the mix of all this is not solely/100% on the company alone - the consumer also bears some measure of responsibility themselves as well to read/study and educate themselves about what they're buying, or not...and if the consumer doesn't do their due diligence in that regard and purchase blindly, its totally unfair to blame the company at that point. I say that because, its entirely possible there's some poor soul that buys early before release thinking its just a true 'demo' of the first part of the game when its in unfinished state, or worse, thinking they're getting the full game at that point....but with all of the interviews and material out there to be clearly read and understood on the matter, at that point the fault lies squarely at their feet, and certainly not Larian's. And this same premise ^ is true for any product, gaming or otherwise - there's responsibility involved on both sides of the fence.


Originally Posted by Annyliese
Many people understandably view it in the same light as paying to access a beta. Is it new? No, but for some it does come off as a greedy motion. A way to tease players with some early time with the game while Larian profits off of it, instead of spending time, money and other resources on getting playtesting done without EA.


None of us can scientifically prove the ratio breakdown of perspectives for those of us who will likely be pre-ordering and being actively involved in the EA process, so that should be understood going in before I say this...but I'd feel very confident in making an strongly educated guess that the majority of those who have no qualms about Larian's BG3 EA at all are going to be those who are already emotionally invested, who already trust the quality of both Larian's work and the company's character/actions to date, and thus would already be buying the full release game anyway. And, as has already been shown as fact, purchasing now vs. purchasing after release has no differential involved, save the ability (should one choose to) to pre-order and thus be able to participate in EA. Those same people are also likely viewing the prospect as a team effort - especially if they either participated in Larian's past EA periods, or read the numerous detailed experiential posts from those who did of what occurred therein. You referenced it in reply to someone else as 'money up front', but its almost certainly not money they wouldn't have gotten regardless.

Beyond the above more likely majority scenario however, we should just be blunt here and not dance around things: For anyone else, from what I've observed over the past few months, its only perceived as 'greedy' or touted as such by those who, for whatever reason, either don't have the same confidence in the company as the first pool, or are simply predisposed to be skeptical by nature....but yet obviously have an intense interest in the game regardless - and bottom line, can't figure out how to reconcile between their skepticism and their interest, and are wanting (begging in some cases) to be incentivized to make their internal reconciliation process easier. Simply put, no one that had no interest in the game would spend that much time trying to argue for a discounted or free EA period. Some of them also try and tout other games or developers and what they did, but Larian should not be unfairly held to someone else's standard...and especially not when they've already proven their way of doing things is a very successful approach, not just for company and the company's product, but the consumer as well. And ultimately, as nothing is going to change from Larian's perspective, those that fall into this 2nd classification/pool simply have to somehow make that reconciliation on their own.

It really is very, very simple for them though: if someone is unsure about anything to do with the game or Larian as the developer, as Raze pointed out earlier and as Larian as a whole is stating, they should simply wait until 1.0 release, purchase and try out the game within the refundable timeframe allotted at that point, and if not convinced, they should get a refund at that point. Or, they can (in their eyes) gamble on it by pre-ordering and participating in EA period and let the proverbial dice roll as they may - and I for one hope if they decide to take the risk, they roll a 20 on it.


“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do. But it takes character and self control to be understanding and forgiving.”---Dale Carnegie.
Joined: Aug 2020
journeyman
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I feel bad for posting what is to be such a short response to your well-written and eloquent post, but I feel as though all I can say is that I personally agree on most fronts. Larian has done all they really can under the circumstances to present the situation as honestly as possible, and it's why I don't share the thoughts I posted.

I think all I can really add is that I do disagree with the sentiment that EA is a pre-order with benefits. I personally take it as an early purchase of the game, like what we've seen with other highly successful early access games - Minecraft, for example. Larian's EA period is just a considerably smaller period than these other games, so I think it shifts perspective a lot.

And thank you for the kind words. I doubt my ability to communicate pretty often. ^^

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Originally Posted by Tyndaleon
I stand by my prior post. I analyzed and explained why the content of the Steam post you made & referenced was reacted to as it was, since you brought the comments made to you over here.
I would not have to bring anything over here if you had not brought a steam discussion over here, which I said before, I don't really see the point in doing.

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As stated in that reply, no one knew of you until that point, all we had to go by was the tone and character of your post in addition to what your Steam history said for you, which was also a rant about EA for another game. And I suggested perhaps a healthier, more mature and constructive way to share your opinion(s) going forward.
Still going to say, let steam discussions be steam discussions, please take them to steam, where they belong.

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To turn your own phrase: if that's what you consider an 'attack', then you and I have very different views on what constitutes an 'attack'.
Taking a discussion from another forum to this forum just to paint a negative image of me is an attack. And why do you continue here? I've asked a couple of times, but if you have problems with a steam discussion, please take it to steam.

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If somehow you misunderstood something of it based on the language differential you brought forth, then I'll be happy to apologize in that instance.
I think my wording might be wrong at times, and not understanding some things also.

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As it relates to EA, different developers/game publishers have different approaches, goals, contexts and history involved in each case.
Yes, and in this case, this developer, this game studios decision to ask full price for an early access is in my opinion too much.

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In the specific case of Larian and BG3, EA vs pre-order is not an either/or proposition but rather one of conjunction of both. A random Google to a Wikipedia article or the like doesn't apply the same in every situation. Regardless if you choose to participate in EA or not, if you purchase BG3 before the official launch date, you are by very definition pre-ordering in this case.
I don't think you understand, it is what Early access and Preorder means, not what opinions people have of the name. A preorder is ordering a game that is fully released and getting that fully released game in the mail (or by other means) on that fully released games realease date (in most cases a Version 1.0 or higher). Early access simply means that, paying to play a game before it's full game release date (before Version 1.0. Maybe Version 0.2 or 0.8) There is a very very big difference. I don't really see the point in arguing what a preorder is, research it if you want to. smile

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As Raze reminded as well, Larian has repeatedly warned the wrong minded sort of consumer away and advised they don't pre-order and play in EA, and instead pay for the game after release.
I did not really understand this, but am I "wrong minded" to think that the price is high? I'm really looking forward to playing the game, and if I can contribute, that would be awesome. The only thing I'm trying to discuss, is the price of early access.

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Essentially, it sounds as though waiting would be the best decision and approach for you, but whatever you decide, my hope is that you come to enjoy the game as much as the rest of us, and I wish you well sir.
I'm not gonna wait, I'm gonna play the game, and hopefully enjoying it as much as I think I will smile
And I'm not doing the quoting thing correctly, I apoligize..

Last edited by Nebbit; 06/09/20 11:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Crowdfunded games have you pay MORE for early access.
This is probably true, I will take your word for it. But on the contrary, a beta is free smile

Originally Posted by Wormerine
Here is the thing: if you are not sure if you won't to buy Baldur's Gate3 - then don't buy it yet. Larian doesn't want to encourage people to buy in early, if they are not already interested in BG3 - they have been vocal about it, and pricing supports it.
I kinda agree, just not the price, but if they only wanted people already interested in BG3, they would not release early access to the entire world. Because many people will pay and play early access just because a friend of them will, they hear good things about it or any other reason, even if they have no idea what they are getting into. Larian knows this.

Originally Posted by Wormerine
You have nothing to gain by buying to EA - you will get the worse experience and you pay the same as if you wait. If you are interested in BG3, however, and want to provide feedback and be a Guinea Pig for their experiments - you can pre-order the game and test it. If you are not interested in it - wait for 1.0.
I agree with this, but I still believe people that does not know what BG3 is,will still buy the game smile

Originally Posted by Wormerine
EDIT. As mentioned before, there are titles that release for full price in EA. It is uncommon, and generally business model wants people to buy in early (aka. we need money to actually work on the game). Not so much in this case (Can't speak about Larian's budget but 1) with that scale it would be silly to count on EA money to finish the project 2) they said it: Buy EA only if you want to make the game better.
Yes and no, If they only wanted feedback to make the game better, they would simply give out beta keys and make people pay for the game after the beta ended. In this case, they are asking for money, indicating that they need it in some way. This is how I understand it atleast smile

Either way, I hope this game is gonna be as good as I hope, even If I have to pay full price.

Last edited by Nebbit; 06/09/20 11:29 AM.
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journeyman
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Originally Posted by Nebbit
why do you continue?


I neither was, nor am 'continuing' in any context. My prior response was final in intent. If you wish to continue to debate your unique perspective on this subject with other members, or with the Larian reps themselves for that matter, then I wish you luck sir.


“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do. But it takes character and self control to be understanding and forgiving.”---Dale Carnegie.
Joined: Sep 2017
old hand
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Sounds like you both want to let that subject to be discontinued. Everyone agrees - Perfect.

Joined: Jan 2018
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Originally Posted by Nebbit
Yes and no, If they only wanted feedback to make the game better, they would simply give out beta keys and make people pay for the game after the beta ended. In this case, they are asking for money, indicating that they need it in some way. This is how I understand it atleast smile

Either way, I hope this game is gonna be as good as I hope, even If I have to pay full price.


Larian has been quite specific about how they use EA to improv the game. It is a longer and more involved process than a typical beta, and this shows by how much DOS2 changed throughout the process of its early access. They also take the money they get from EA and reinvest it back into the game, in order to make a better finished product.

Joined: Mar 2020
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For me, I'll happily pay 60 for early access and provide agreed feedback to make the retail released game better. It's a small price to pay for the long term enjoyment that I will get, knowing that perhaps some feedback I provided changed the game and made it better to include future BG content.


Thanks for reading...

Razorback aka Daevin Aruth
"Nullius Pavet Occursum" = "He fears not meeting with any one"
Gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen, barter is the money of peasants, and debt is the money of slaves...
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