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I asked a lot during the last stream, on reddit AmA some months ago but really wanna know.

  • Will have a single summon limit?
  • Necromancy is among the weakest wiz specialization on 5e. Any changes to improve necromancy and make more like 2e or 3.5e?
  • Option to "concurrent turns" so having 666 undeads will not slow down the combat?


The third is a "strategy" that many DM's uses to handle necromancers with undead armies on P&P. Instead of rolling 666 dices, if they have 50% chance of hitting the enemy, assume that half of the mob will hit and each one will deal half of damage. However, computers can handle huge armies in a instant. So IDK what is the point of one summon limit that so many games has.

Necromancy is my second favorite type of magic on RPG's, losing only to water/cold based magic but really few games did a good job with that type of magic. Only Gothic 3(the most criticized of trilogy) and Might & Magic VI made being a water mage amazing. Necromancy in other hands, is great is so many games. Mainly old school games. Arcanum, BG2, Might & Magic, Ultima Online... Not so much on modern games which often has a lot of boring mechanics like cooldowns, single summon limit and stat sticky itemization. But I expect that I will be able to make a necromancer in BG3.

The single summon limit kinda kills all the point of being a necromancer specialized wizard. Spell fixes, the most popular mod for NWN2 removes the one summon limitation. Warlock reworked too and there are TONS of skyrim mods focused on making necromancy good and aligned with TES lore. People enjoy necromancy but there are so few games with decent necromancy.

If you check the pre alpha results from Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, the mythic path of the Lich is the SECOND most popular. And we don't have a good lichdoom in a game since might & magic 8 - day of the destoryer(2000)

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source https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder...er_update_per_alpha_ad_astra_alpha_test/

I an not suggesting Lich PC's on a low level campaign(BG3). Just saying that necromancy is popular and underrepresented. On Gothic 2 - RETURNING 2.0, the most popular class is necromancer. If you put in youtube "gothic 2 retuyrning 2.0", the first result is a walktrough of Sinitar, as a necromancer. And all modern mainstream RPG's are doing AWFUL necromancy. ESO? Awful. DA:I? Awful.

5e already heavily nerfed necromancy by removing wail of the banshee, making finger of death infinitely weaker and limiting the hit dice of created creatures. My sixty circle necromancer on ret 2.0 can raise a demoniac army and slay an orc army easily.

Screenshots on spoiler


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And one last thing. I rather NOT having necromancy specialization and not having spells like animate dead instead of having a awful thing like single summon limit or DA:I style of necromancy.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 12/09/20 05:40 AM.
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BG3 is not based on Pathfinder, or Dragon Age Inquisition, or Gothic 2.
How the Necromancy class works in these games is irrelevant.


BG3 is based on D&D 5e.
Animate Dead in 5e works as below:

Quote
Animate Dead

3rd-level necromancy

Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 10 feet
Components: V, S, M (a drop of blood, a piece of flesh, and a pinch of bone dust)
Duration: Instantaneous

This spell creates an undead servant. Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life, raising it as an undead creature. The target becomes a skeleton if you chose bones or a zombie if you chose a corpse.

On each of your turns, you can use a bonus action to mentally command any creature you made with this spell if the creature is within 60 feet of you (if you control multiple creatures, you can command any or all of them at the same time, issuing the same command to each one). You decide what action the creature will take and where it will move during its next turn, or you can issue a general command, such as to guard a particular chamber or corridor. If you issue no commands, the creature only defends itself against hostile creatures. Once given an order, the creature continues to follow it until its task is complete.

The creature is under your control for 24 hours, after which it stops obeying any command you’ve given it. To maintain control of the creature for another 24 hours, you must cast this spell on the creature again before the current 24-hour period ends. This use of the spell reasserts your control over up to four creatures you have animated with this spell, rather than animating a new one.

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you animate or reassert control over two additional undead creatures for each slot level above 3rd. Each of the creatures must come from a different corpse or pile of bones.



D&D 5E allows you to have multiple undead but they are low level and can be blown away by a fireball or turned by an opposing cleric.
Should you specialize as Necromancer it's 6th level feature Undead Thralls makes your summons tougher with extra health and gives them better attacks.

As Early Access only gets you to level 4 we won't be able to see this in action until after launch sometime in late 2021.



As of last update only the Evocation and Abjuration Arcane Traditions will be available at the beginning of Early Access.
It is unknown when Larian will be adding more.

Last edited by Alodar; 12/09/20 09:00 AM.
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If they apply the spell following the rules of 5e you summon more undead minions at higher levels, but they´re still the same creature. Unlike in previous editions you do not animate stronger creatures, you just summon more. You also need to spend your bonus action in your turn to order them to do something and it takes one minute to cast it, so you cannot use it in combat. As said in previous posts, a strong enemy group or a cleric would make a number on them easily.

The spell is only useful in the long run if you are a necro, because they improve the hp and hit rate of the creatures when you level up. Wizs and Warlocks have better summoning spells (summon fiend spirit, conjure fay, etc). Strangely enough, they give the necros the "Animate dead" spell for free at level 6, but you can learn it at level 5 ¿?
Zombies are good meatshields if the enemy does not have radiant damage, because they keep coming back unless you kill them for good with a crit or radiant damage. The spell has a very long duration and you can recycle the same creature the next day, so you do not have to look for more corpses.

You just have to remember to kill the creature or recast the spell or the zombie will attack you the next day. Also you may not want to create a zombie apocalypse animating a lot of corpses every day and set them free. Lathander is going to frown upon it XD



If they include the school of necromancy I think you´re going to have fun with them if they use the spell in the game the same way it´s in PNP.

Last edited by _Vic_; 12/09/20 11:19 AM.
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168 Undead
You will need:

A level 20 sorcerer able to cast Animate Dead.
A Ring of Spell Storing.
Someone other than you who can cast Animate Dead.
Animate Dead raises 2×(spell level)-5 or maintains control over 2×(spell level)-2 undead. We would have problem where we are forced to use a whole spell slot to maintain control over a single zombie because if we create another one instead, we lose control over the old one. By using Ring of Spell Storing with our helper we won't have a problem of growing our horde, so we can concentrate on controlling it.

Using all available spell slots per day we will be able to control:

3rd level: 3×4 = 12 undead
4th level: 3×6 = 18 undead
5th level: 3×8 = 24 undead
6th level: 2×10 = 20 undead
7th level: 2×12 = 24 undead
8th level: 1×14 = 14 undead
9th level: 1×16 = 16 undead
For total of 128 zombies or skeletons.

After that we use class features to improve our army.

A Sorcerer can turn all his 1st and 2nd level spell into 10 more spell points and create 4 more 5th level spell slots per day with Flexible Casting for 4×8 = 32 more undead.
If we would have to stick to a single short rest, we would have to ditch creating a single 5th level spell slot and create two 4th level slots instead for total of 3×8 + 2×6 = 36 undead.
If we would be able to take at least 2 short rests per day, we would accumulate enough sorcery points with Sorcerous Restoration to create another 5th level spell slot for total of 40 undead.

A necromancer wizard can use Arcane Recovery to restore 2 5th level slots per day, make Animate Dead one of his Arcane Mastery spells and use it daily and use Command Undead feature to bind one more undead to his will for total of 2*8+4+1 = 21 more controlled undead.


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dragonuff , remember that we will not reach lv 20.


Alodar , I mentioned this games only to show that necromancy is popular in those games.

And Vic, I strongly agree. Older editions allowed you to have way cooler pets. Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous will allow you to reanimate bosses to serve you... Having only skeletons and the lack of OHK spells is why IMO 5e has the worst necromancy(don't know about 4e)

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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
dragonuff , remember that we will not reach lv 20.


Alodar , I mentioned this games only to show that necromancy is popular in those games.

And Vic, I strongly agree. Older editions allowed you to have way cooler pets. Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous will allow you to reanimate bosses to serve you... Having only skeletons and the lack of OHK spells is why IMO 5e has the worst necromancy(don't know about 4e)

Mine is mostly how to mid max the most bodies on the field as possible in 5e alot you might not be able to do due to limits in BG3 such as not being able to get to level 20 or finding a ring of spell storing which is 50/50 if its in the game


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Originally Posted by dragonuff
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
dragonuff , remember that we will not reach lv 20.


Alodar , I mentioned this games only to show that necromancy is popular in those games.

And Vic, I strongly agree. Older editions allowed you to have way cooler pets. Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous will allow you to reanimate bosses to serve you... Having only skeletons and the lack of OHK spells is why IMO 5e has the worst necromancy(don't know about 4e)

Mine is mostly how to mid max the most bodies on the field as possible in 5e alot you might not be able to do due to limits in BG3 such as not being able to get to level 20 or finding a ring of spell storing which is 50/50 if its in the game



My point is that back on 3.5e, you had a better progression. Animate Dead(3rd/4th circle) -> Create Undead(6th circle) -> Create Greater Undead(8th circle), so your low level character can only create few weak skeletons, a lv 20 necromancer in other hands can create few Devourers(CR = 11) and an army of weaker undead. https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createGreaterUndead.htm

On pathfinder 1e, they even expanded and you can have undead mammoths.

I love this type of progression.

On Gothic 2 - Returning 2.0, when you do the test and is accepted on circle of darkness, you can only create lowly weak skeletons. Then zombies on circle 2, then skeleton warriors with weapon proficiency that can block and attack on circle 3. On circle 4, you can learn demonology and create demons, by feeding your spell with demonic essences, you can create even tougher demons. On circle 5, you can cast army of darkness which creates 2 skeleton warriors and a skeleton mage armed with spear of darkness, a circle 3 spell.

Being only able to have skeletons from low level to high level isn't something which I personally like...

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 12/09/20 08:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor


Alodar , I mentioned this games only to show that necromancy is popular in those games.



This is a BG3 forum.

How Pathfinder, 3.5E, 4E, The Walking Dead, or Abbot and Costello meet the Mummy handle undead are all irrelevant.

The 5E spell is very straight forward on what it summons.
The Necromancer Arcane Tradition in 5E is very straight forward on what it does. (Grim Harvest (2nd level), Undead Thralls(6th level), Inured to Undead (10th level) and Command Undead (14th level)

Should Larian choose to include the Necromancer as an Arcane Tradition in BG3 those are the guidelines they will be working off.




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The best Necromancer I have ever played was in ADOM. Instead of risking your own precious life you would summon monsters to fight for you. Even Vampires. Then in combat I once hit the Vampire by accident. He got pissed, aggroed and smashed me to bits. Weeks of progress lost. 10/10 I am yet to beat ADOM.

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Originally Posted by Alodar

This is a BG3 forum.


I an just listing things taht are great in other games and saying that the necromancer spells on 5e are very lackluster.

Going from being able to create archdemons in a game, after playing a lot of necromancer on 3.5e and 2e games, soloing BG2:EE on legacy of bhaal as a necromancer, only to be unable to create meaningful undeads and cast powerful spells would be awful. Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Wormerine
The best Necromancer I have ever played was in ADOM. Instead of risking your own precious life you would summon monsters to fight for you. Even Vampires. Then in combat I once hit the Vampire by accident. He got pissed, aggroed and smashed me to bits. Weeks of progress lost. 10/10 I am yet to beat ADOM.


I will check.

I don't get why 5e decided to nerf necro so hard. I mean, is not as if necromancy was the best 2e/3.5e specialization. Why take out all cool undeads which you can create and OHK spells?

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Originally Posted by Alodar
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor


Alodar , I mentioned this games only to show that necromancy is popular in those games.



This is a BG3 forum.

How Pathfinder, 3.5E, 4E, The Walking Dead, or Abbot and Costello meet the Mummy handle undead are all irrelevant.

Discussion about their pros/cons compared to BG3 is still welcome here, however. If something is completely off-topic I'll move it to the appropriate place but while this is related to BG3 (however tangentially) it can stay.


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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Alodar
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor


Alodar , I mentioned this games only to show that necromancy is popular in those games.



This is a BG3 forum.

How Pathfinder, 3.5E, 4E, The Walking Dead, or Abbot and Costello meet the Mummy handle undead are all irrelevant.

Discussion about their pros/cons compared to BG3 is still welcome here, however. If something is completely off-topic I'll move it to the appropriate place but while this is related to BG3 (however tangentially) it can stay.


I mentioned a lot of other games, but is not my fault. I mean, Larian din't awnsered any questions in that regard in reddit AMA or in lives which I watched. And the EA will only cover lv 1~4 and will not have necromancer specialization. I wish that i could make a discussion more focused on BG3 but...

Also, I don't get, Larian said that are encouraging people to be evil at least once on BG3 and see the cool options, have spended a lot of time with talk with the dead, a amazing feature which I never saw in a fully voice acted game and ... No talk about necromancy. A lot of people who enjoy playing as evil also enjoy necromancy

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 13/09/20 03:23 AM.
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Originally Posted by dragonuff
168 Undead
You will need:

A level 20 sorcerer able to cast Animate Dead.
A Ring of Spell Storing.
Someone other than you who can cast Animate Dead.
Animate Dead raises 2×(spell level)-5 or maintains control over 2×(spell level)-2 undead. We would have problem where we are forced to use a whole spell slot to maintain control over a single zombie because if we create another one instead, we lose control over the old one. By using Ring of Spell Storing with our helper we won't have a problem of growing our horde, so we can concentrate on controlling it.

Using all available spell slots per day we will be able to control:

3rd level: 3×4 = 12 undead
4th level: 3×6 = 18 undead
5th level: 3×8 = 24 undead
6th level: 2×10 = 20 undead
7th level: 2×12 = 24 undead
8th level: 1×14 = 14 undead
9th level: 1×16 = 16 undead
For total of 128 zombies or skeletons.

.


That. Was. Amazing

Still you summon 168 CR4 creatures but It would be great if you want to become the new necrolord of Firewine bridge laugh (or if you wanna make a Walking Dead 5e)

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It Gets even better if you have bag of holdings shove some skelly boys in them in load em like expensive grenades and watch that bandit groups horror as you proceed to dump out groups of skeletons apon them

Last edited by dragonuff; 13/09/20 07:13 PM.

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Agreed Victor, I hope necromancers in BG3 are given enough attention and I'd love to know what the devs think. The old progression you described is awesome. And thanks, Vometia.

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Originally Posted by The Drow Warlock
Agreed Victor, I hope necromancers in BG3 are given enough attention and I'd love to know what the devs think. The old progression you described is awesome. And thanks, Vometia.


Yep. 5e necromancers are very lackluster. If Larian is thinking on improving monks(which was regular on 3e and awful on 5e) and rangers, why not make the less powerful wizard specialization useful?

Or even better, picking the "dread necromancer" class from 3.5e and porting it into 5e https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/hakpak/original-hakpak/dread-necromancer-class

But that would require so much effort, that if it comes, should come as a DLC.

Originally Posted by dragonuff

It Gets even better if you have bag of holdings shove some skelly boys in them in load em like expensive grenades and watch that bandit groups horror as you proceed to dump out groups of skeletons apon them


Still only skeletons and zombies.

I wanna have skeletons, zombies, ghosts, ghouls, shadows, shadow mastiefs, nightwalkers, gorgeous vampire brides, etc; raised and under my command.

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Get Total War Warhammer and play as the Vampire Counts. Your necromancer / vampire lords can control 1000s of undead of various kinds at once while blasting away enemies a dozen at a time with dark magic.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Get Total War Warhammer and play as the Vampire Counts. Your necromancer / vampire lords can control 1000s of undead of various kinds at once while blasting away enemies a dozen at a time with dark magic.


But is a strategy games. Strategy games tends to have better necromancy than RPG's. That said, I hope that Larian will do a great job with necromancy, but we will not gonna see animate dead on EA.

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i would love it if they add more id end up role playing lord ainz ooal gown from the great tomb of nazarick


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Originally Posted by dragonuff
i would love it if they add more id end up role playing lord ainz ooal gown from the great tomb of nazarick


Ainz in D&D therms would be a lv 30 wizard specialized on necromancy and BG3 will not even reach close to epic levels. Your char will at best be like Fluder Paradyne on BG3... There are no rules for creating powerful undead nor to epic levels on 5e, so no way to play as a Ainz clone.

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