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Romance, whatever it is - from falling in love to sexuality and beyond, it's just part of life. Just like the other wants, food or drinks. Or wanting that cool armor, legendary weapon, magic skill, treasure, and everything else.
All these can go wrong. Not the subject is bad in itself, just how it is implemented in a game. That can go wrong.

Love is just like food, isn't good when it's forced. You have to want it first. Then have to be cooked properly, unless you that hungry, because otherwise you get sick and won't feel it as a joy. That's why there has to be a teasing first and an easy way to refuse that. Nothing wrong at this point, just take it a a compliment. You may become hungry later. Or not.

Depends on the food as well: a tasty cookie could be always tempting. It's up to those laws of attraction. These make a game more rich, even if we just react with some kind of "no". Don't have to end in a complicated a scene. Just a single line of teasing, from a character you encouraged to do so, goes deep.

So I don't think a toggle needed, as in option & settings. Just to be well written, and allow for a refusal, from a simple one, to a polite or even threatening one "don't even try this again with me", including the "maybe later" leaving the door open. These won't make a game feel cheep or creepy. They will actually add a lot, they make sense and nothing to be afraid of.

We can't just keep censoring the most important parts of our humanity; that is falling in love, from the fear of doing something weird. These parts just need a better writing than games get usually. Still, props for those trying, considering the "western" world we live in 2020 is still ashamed of sexuality and feelings, and how can one learn a proper way (of writing) without trying and failing, making corrections, trying again, doing better and in the end, getting it right. Just try it in real life, if you haven't yet, and see that "romance" it's never a 100% success story smile

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Originally Posted by LoneSky
Romance, whatever it is - from falling in love to sexuality and beyond, it's just part of life. Just like the other wants, food or drinks. Or wanting that cool armor, legendary weapon, magic skill, treasure, and everything else.
All these can go wrong. Not the subject is bad in itself, just how it is implemented in a game. That can go wrong.

Love is just like food, isn't good when it's forced. You have to want it first. Then have to be cooked properly, unless you that hungry, because otherwise you get sick and won't feel it as a joy. That's why there has to be a teasing first and an easy way to refuse that. Nothing wrong at this point, just take it a a compliment. You may become hungry later. Or not.

Depends on the food as well: a tasty cookie could be always tempting. It's up to those laws of attraction. These make a game more rich, even if we just react with some kind of "no". Don't have to end in a complicated a scene. Just a single line of teasing, from a character you encouraged to do so, goes deep.

So I don't think a toggle needed, as in option & settings. Just to be well written, and allow for a refusal, from a simple one, to a polite or even threatening one "don't even try this again with me", including the "maybe later" leaving the door open. These won't make a game feel cheep or creepy. They will actually add a lot, they make sense and nothing to be afraid of.

We can't just keep censoring the most important parts of our humanity; that is falling in love, from the fear of doing something weird. These parts just need a better writing than games get usually. Still, props for those trying, considering the "western" world we live in 2020 is still ashamed of sexuality and feelings, and how can one learn a proper way (of writing) without trying and failing, making corrections, trying again, doing better and in the end, getting it right. Just try it in real life, if you haven't yet, and see that "romance" it's never a 100% success story smile


You, like most others on the forums, seem to be misunderstanding those that have voiced concerns over the intended sex scenes; no one is asking for relationships and romance to be removed from the game. I won't speak for everyone else on the specifics, but IMO the sex scenes are too far, unnecessary, and are a big detractor from the game. I'm all for keeping in all the relationship/romance dialogue but I wish they would cut the softcore porn scenes that add nothing to the game.

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Yeah, I like romance when it is well written and provides role playing opportunities to define my character, and I’m not even inherently opposed to sex scenes. But watching animated video game characters entwine themselves in each other always looks like crap. Cringeworthy and embarrassing. They remind me of the sex scene in Team America: World Police, but played straight instead of for laughs.

There is a way to do it tastefully, and this ain’t it. I’ll just end up skipping the sex scenes, so it isn’t a huge deal. Just disappointing. If you ever see video game sex scenes discussed anywhere online the pervading opinion seems to be that they are rubbish. I don’t know why Larian wasted resources on this, but oh well.

Last edited by Warlocke; 27/09/20 06:01 PM.
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I didn't know there will be sex scenes, this gonna be interesting (or not, I don't know yet, depends how they look like and what happens in there).
These likely need a skip options, certainly. Even if someone likes them, sometimes just needs to happen fast, I skip many cutscenes I like, in many games, after I watched them many times and don't need to watch them anymore, skip has same effect already.

But then again, I still wouldn't be against them, there can't be innovation without failures. I would need to think a lot how to make them, if I had to direct such scenes... Maybe like the one I remember from Witcher 2, Geralt and Triss in rose garden or bath. That was a beautiful place and that scene was just really fitting there.

As for wasting resources... could look like, if it's about scenes I would just skip. But then these kind of games seem boring to many, no offense, but dice & and stuff isn't what an action gamer or even a non-gamer would want. Just think for a moment from their perspective as well. Add a bit of color & tease, without turning it into "adult" content of course, and may become interesting and worth going through the "boring parts" to get a rewarding romance scene. Why don't attract more people to the smart parts of the game? Even if the main audience already likes it, more money will allow more games and with even more features, since all they are about cost as well.
I'm here for example just for the RPG part & story (that's part of RPG but still, one could role play on the go and invent stories, I won't).

There is always opposition when it comes to sex in games, even if "skip" is the default. The standards of our society are still like of a medieval cloister; rotten to the core, but still keeping the "façade" appearance of a "holy" institution. I remember the posts against the Witcher 1 "Sex" cards. Just silly. Things may need a proper packaging and implemented in a tasteful manner, but they need to be there, to allow life-like reactions.

More options are always better, if they are useful options. Many would like alternative ways of playing through games, other than just killing. Being a "murder hobo" is the golden standard, since crusades and before, but isn't better way than just sneaking through stealth, using diplomacy from friendly arguments to subtle mind control, and maybe now using that special charm "Casanova" or even being more subtle about it, like that happens in our real world.

How much graphics details for all these? I'm not making the game, but somehow I'm afraid that the most bloody killing scene would be "enjoyed" without any "skip" button, but even a mild sex scene would cause heart attacks. So I guess we don't want players dying during gaming and "skip" is needed, like those training wheels mounted parallel to the rear wheel of a bicycle that assist learners.

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We have a pretty good idea what the sex scenes will look like. They showed a bit in the last community update video. You should probably watch that before trying to join the conversation about it.

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All we've seen are a few seconds from a few scenes being developed, scenes that were put into the context of a story about a group of people who wouldn't normally associate with one another asking themselves if their common experiences have caused them to forge common bonds. I was kinda impressed by the author they interviewed. I saw some wine glasses being clanked and some facial expressions that made me giggle.

Like all the "we the we have a pretty good idea" statements I don't think we have enough info -- we will on the 6th.

But, with what we do have, I agree with @LoneSky when I compare the (lack) of reaction to the (much longer) pulling the-brain-out-of-the-skull scene and the negative reactions to some story boards. I'm reminded of the horror / erotica double standard. If an exposed breast gets a knife through it, that earns the movie a R rating / if an exposed breast is gently stroked the movie gets an NC17. Will no one think of the children?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Association_film_rating_system

Last edited by KillerRabbit; 27/09/20 09:02 PM.
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To me it is more a question of how dynamic the relationship interactions really are in play.

Time after time, video game "relationships" are these choose-your-own-adventure style games of connect the dots that end in the "requisite" sex scene. They are as formulaic and cringe worthy as they come. Nudity itself isn't the issue, centrally, but it is indicative of the patterns we've seen in games in the past that send questionable vibes. Add to that Larian's generally tongue in cheek way of approaching everything, it is difficult to imagine what an actually seriously approached relationship might look like from them.

Sex doesn't have to be explicit to be meaningful in a narrative. It doesn't even have to be present, necessarily, as there is an entire literary function called allusion that can often do a better job of reflecting the interpersonal emotions involved in the intercourse than "show and tell".

This was the first update that gave me real pause about the game, but I am still looking forward to seeing how this is managed.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
All we've seen are a few seconds from a few scenes being developed, scenes that were put into the context of a story about a group of people who wouldn't normally associate with one another asking themselves if their common experiences have caused them to forge common bonds. I was kinda impressed by the author they interviewed. I saw some wine glasses being clanked and some facial expressions that made me giggle.

Like all the "we the we have a pretty good idea" statements I don't think we have enough info -- we will on the 6th.

But, with what we do have, I agree with @LoneSky when I compare the (lack) of reaction to the (much longer) pulling the-brain-out-of-the-skull scene and the negative reactions to some story boards. I'm reminded of the horror / erotica double standard. If an exposed breast gets a knife through it, that earns the movie a R rating / if an exposed breast is gently stroked the movie gets an NC17. Will no one think of the children?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Association_film_rating_system


No, you still aren’t getting it.

The horror / erotica double standard comes from a conception that depicting violence is more morally permissible than depicting nudity or sexuality.

That isn’t what has been stated in this thread.

People by and large haven’t been saying that don’t like the sex scenes because it is morally wrong. People’s dissatisfaction is that sex scenes between video characters often looks dumb, going off the deep edge into the uncanny valley.

It’s not:

violence = okay
sex = bad

It’s:

Animated sex with video game characters doesn’t look good.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
All we've seen are a few seconds from a few scenes being developed, scenes that were put into the context of a story about a group of people who wouldn't normally associate with one another asking themselves if their common experiences have caused them to forge common bonds. I was kinda impressed by the author they interviewed. I saw some wine glasses being clanked and some facial expressions that made me giggle.

Like all the "we the we have a pretty good idea" statements I don't think we have enough info -- we will on the 6th.

But, with what we do have, I agree with @LoneSky when I compare the (lack) of reaction to the (much longer) pulling the-brain-out-of-the-skull scene and the negative reactions to some story boards. I'm reminded of the horror / erotica double standard. If an exposed breast gets a knife through it, that earns the movie a R rating / if an exposed breast is gently stroked the movie gets an NC17. Will no one think of the children?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Association_film_rating_system


No, you still aren’t getting it.

The horror / erotica double standard comes from a conception that depicting violence is more morally permissible than depicting nudity or sexuality.

That isn’t what has been stated in this thread.

People by and large haven’t been saying that don’t like the sex scenes because it is morally wrong. People’s dissatisfaction is that sex scenes between video characters often looks dumb, going off the deep edge into the uncanny valley.

It’s not:

violence = okay
sex = bad

It’s:

Animated sex with video game characters doesn’t look good.

First off, I agree with @KillerRabbit in general here (that the violence and gore is what is over the top in the game). But @Warlocke I also get what you're saying in making a distinction. But I disagree with you in that IMO, no matter how bad animated sex scenes may be (and keeping in mind that we cannot necessarily compare how they will come out here to past games because the graphics tech level is significantly higher than in any previous similar game), even bad animated sex is -- for me -- way better than fade to black. Fade to black is the stupidest thing ever, and if that is what we get then I'd much rather we get no romance/sex cinematics at all.

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Sure, I get that. It is a matter of preference. Ideally I think that there is a way to portray sex in games without just a fade to black that can work, but it needs to take into account the limitations of the medium and the tech being used.

Violence and gore are easy. Whether it is supposed to be comically or discomforting, it can be over the top and achieve whatever it’s objective may be.

Sex requires a lot more subtlety to be successful in achieving its end. When I see the sex scenes in this game my interpretation is that I’m supposed to be excited or titillated, based on the manner in which they are going about it.

But it just doesn’t work for me. The models and animations are great for their general purposes: showing turn based combat, which is already so abstracted that the presentation doesn’t need to be super realistic, or telling a story. The subtleties of intimacy are not being satisfied, however. Not at least in my estimation. Instead it seems wooden and unintentionally silly, and draws me into confrontation with the uncanny valley.

I just think this is one of those things that if it can’t be done well, it shouldn’t be attempted.

Last edited by Warlocke; 27/09/20 11:59 PM.
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Maybe Cyberpunk will have it better, but I haven't watched their previews either. Still, I'm really trying to be open to new things. BG3 likely won't have motion capture tech helping out these scenes, but then neither for a throwing axe animation. We will still get it, few years ago graphics were far worse and games still were made. I'm more worried about the story side, to fit there and don't feel cheap; less worried about the graphical fidelity this time.

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Yeah, at the end of the day if I don’t like the sex scenes I can skip them. It’s far more important that the narrative interactions are satisfying.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
[quote=Warlocke][quote=KillerRabbit], even bad animated sex is -- for me -- way better than fade to black. Fade to black is the stupidest thing ever, and if that is what we get then I'd much rather we get no romance/sex cinematics at all.


Yes, even bad animated sex is better than none at all, and for some people, it might be all they ever have.

I think in my party, I am going to have one of my characters "fall in love" and "try and have a romance" with every one of the monsters we meet, from the Gelatinous Cube to the Owlbear. I wonder if the game will let me role play this "curse".

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Actually just saw the latest update vid "Romance & Companionship" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYD5HHKmVT8
and they have motion capture tech... also the scenes so far are beautiful, though were just small samples in there, but looks like there's nothing to worry about, was nothing explicit, just similar to Dragon Age Origins

The only fear I have is the COVID, they were quite close to each other in that vid. Fingers crossed kind of thing, just hate that damn virus...

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First, they wouldn't put explicit stuff in a trailer; we saw their story boards...they definitely have explicit stuff in the works. Second, the people doing motion capture were young and have a 99.997% survival rate from this virus, I think they'll be fine.

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Originally Posted by deathidge
[quote=LoneSky]

I'm all for keeping in all the relationship/romance dialogue but I wish they would cut the softcore porn scenes that add nothing to the game.


Your nothing is subjective, to me, that adds a level of relatability and realism that I very much want.

Sex is as natural as casting a spell - I'm glad we're seeing both in all their glory in various forms in BG3 laugh

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Originally Posted by deathidge
Second, the people doing motion capture were young and have a 99.997% survival rate from this virus, I think they'll be fine.


a.) Data changes, but last time I checked, the CDC was estimating base mortality rate (i.e., for 18–29 year olds) at somewhere between 0.2%–1.5%, meaning your oh-so-confident 0.003% underestimates the risk by somewhere between a factor of sixty and a factor of five hundred.

b.) Even cases that don’t result in death can cause hospitalization and permanent complications.

c.) Even cases that don’t cause hospitalization, including asymptomatic cases, can infect other people who then are hospitalized or die. Cf the Maine “superspreader” wedding linked to seven deaths, none of whom attended the wedding.

d.) Just because something poses little risk to you yourself doesn’t make it a Cool, Fun, and Consequence-Free Activity. Personally, if all I cared about was myself I’d do a lot more crimes. But I care about other people, so I don’t.

e.) I’d lay money on much of the completed mo-cap, likely including the clips we saw, having been done before the pandemic kicked off.

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Originally Posted by Apocynum
[quote=deathidge]Second, the people doing motion capture were young and have a 99.997% survival rate from this virus, I think they'll be fine.


Originally Posted by Apocynum
a.) Data changes, but last time I checked, the CDC was estimating base mortality rate (i.e., for 18–29 year olds) at somewhere between 0.2%–1.5%, meaning your oh-so-confident 0.003% underestimates the risk by somewhere between a factor of sixty and a factor of five hundred.


Well seeing as only 9% of deaths, in the US, were purely COVID related the number are extremely inflated. There is no way of knowing how many of the other 91% are actually because of COVID.

Originally Posted by Apocynum
b.) Even cases that don’t result in death can cause hospitalization and permanent complications.


And? name a sickness/disease that can't do that.

Originally Posted by Apocynum
c.) Even cases that don’t cause hospitalization, including asymptomatic cases, can infect other people who then are hospitalized or die. Cf the Maine “superspreader” wedding linked to seven deaths, none of whom attended the wedding.


wut. how is this relevant?

Originally Posted by Apocynum
d.) Just because something poses little risk to you yourself doesn’t make it a Cool, Fun, and Consequence-Free Activity. Personally, if all I cared about was myself I’d do a lot more crimes. But I care about other people, so I don’t.


Where tf did I say it was a "cool, fun, and consequence-free activity? stop projecting. And that analogy is utterly senseless.

Originally Posted by Apocynum
e.) I’d lay money on much of the completed mo-cap, likely including the clips we saw, having been done before the pandemic kicked off.


Cool?

There are dozens of known cases, most likely hundreds/thousands of unknown cases, where sterile swabs were sent in and all came back positive. The numbers are massively inflated. There are CONFIRMED cases where poeple have died in accidents, like motorcycle accidents, and, because they 'tested' positive for COVID, COVID was ON THE DEATH CERTIFICATE. If you don't think there is an agenda behind this plannedemic then you need to get your head out of the sand. Covid-19 is a real disease, yes. It has killed people, yes. But not nearly as many as the media is touting. The common cold is just as deadly to seniors and those with pre-existing respiratory problems as Covid.

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Guys, this is not the right forum to discuss politics, and it is especially not right to derail and hijack a thread about it. Reel it in and get back on topic. Also, when you do find the right place to talk politics, try to refer to actual sources if you're going to bring in alleged statistics.

Any posts about covid or related politics in this thread will be removed.

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