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Originally Posted by kanisatha
I thought the good companions will only be introduced after the EA period, so if that is not correct and we will see them later within the EA, then okay.

Also, I said the game runs the risk of becoming evil default, not that that's how it has been designed. So evil path unintentionally becoming the default because that's what everyone did during EA, and may be even posted a lot of videos and streams. But like some of you seem to believe, even with Swen's desire for people to play evil playthroughs in EA, maybe many EA players will refuse and opt for good playthroughs. These are all possibilities. For me this is just yet another worry about the game because I will not touch a game where the evil path is how you're supposed to play the game (even if other paths are possible). That's why, as much as I love Obsidian RPGs and Tyranny has received strong reviews, I will never ever play that game.


I took/interepreted what Swen has been saying as more of an attempt at balance on both sides, not an attempt to skew the game towards 'evil' choice playstyle. It's kind of the same vein as in the June gameplay session where he knew the masses would cry for showing off Underdark, but he was trying to sell the idea/notion that hey, there's this other encounter which is pretty interesting that you'll miss (for now) if you choose that instead. You also have to keep in mind, him saying that was in direct response to a pointed question of something along the lines of 'without spoiling anything, what's the one thing you'd suggest someone to try in EA' - so it's not like Swen just has been pushing the 'evil' ideology arbitrarily necessarily either. So in that sense, I take it as he's just doing his job as the Larian frontman to show off how much work they've put in all around on permutation and let people know that do tend to like the more evil route that, hey, we actually have something for you guys and you may be surprised at the depth you find.

I'd have to go back and try and find the source, but I'm fairly sure I remember at some point, he even made the comment that usually in these games there isn't a fleshed out path or rewards for playing that way. I read another post, can't remember if it was here or on Reddit, within the last couple of days, but it did point out with the original BG games even, you didn't often have truly evil-rewarded path or options....you often would miss out on certain desired gear/items if you didn't play the good-leaning path or approach. Also, I do think more people from a big picture/universal standpoint tend to play good leaning angles than evil/nefarious ones typically anyway, so again...I just think its more to try and balance things that are being played through as part of the EA process.


“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do. But it takes character and self control to be understanding and forgiving.”---Dale Carnegie.
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Originally Posted by NinthPlane
Larian now has NO WAY OF COLLECTING RELIABLE DATA in EA concerning player preferences.

If Swen never asked people to play evil and EA showed that very few people did then they could make better decisions on where to focus resources. At this point they can show data that justifies more evil options, but only because they've skewed the results.

In the very same stream he also multiple times pushed people not to intimidate crusher again like then they did in previous stream, and previously he tried to have the audience choose goblin camp instead of the underdark. He didn't succeed in any of those.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
And flipping their alignment for their first EA play through?

I usually play my protagonists Neutral Good: well intentioned and empathetic but pragmatic realists, rough around the edges but with a heart of gold.

My philosophy for my EA warlock will be more Neutral Evil: doesn’t go out of his way to cause misery but is ultimately selfish, duplicitous, and dishonorable. I don’t think I could play an entire game that way without deciding to have the hero undergo a redemption arc, but I’ll try it for EA.

Yep

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
I thought the good companions will only be introduced after the EA period, so if that is not correct and we will see them later within the EA, then okay.

Also, I said the game runs the risk of becoming evil default, not that that's how it has been designed. So evil path unintentionally becoming the default because that's what everyone did during EA, and may be even posted a lot of videos and streams. But like some of you seem to believe, even with Swen's desire for people to play evil playthroughs in EA, maybe many EA players will refuse and opt for good playthroughs. These are all possibilities. For me this is just yet another worry about the game because I will not touch a game where the evil path is how you're supposed to play the game (even if other paths are possible). That's why, as much as I love Obsidian RPGs and Tyranny has received strong reviews, I will never ever play that game.

My interpretation is that it's just to get enough players to do it from an evil PoV that they get a good range of feedback for all alignments: I mean from feedback here, there's enough players (probably more than enough) who'll resolutely play as good because of previously not enjoying evil. Edit: as Tyndaleon explained rather better than I did.

It's been a while since I played Tyranny but the actual RP element wasn't overtly evil. I didn't particularly like having to choose between two factions who were a classic case of "can't they both lose?" but that didn't really change how I played my character.

Last edited by vometia; 17/09/20 12:31 AM.

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Quote: "I sincerely doubt that the "evil path" will be the default for the game. It's pretty clear historically and on these forums that players prefer to play the good path. This is a mass market game with a mass market audience, and going with the evil path as default would 1-harm sales, and 2-be very unusual. I think if they were going with an evil default you would hear about it in the marketing, because it would be a fairly unusual narrative choice."

This is by far the darkest start I have seen in this series hands down. I am excited ...don't get me wrong, but there isn't a single bright spot among the player companions...not one.
No naive hometown friend like Imoen. No seasoned paragons of the community such as the Harpers . No Halfling Fighters with aspirations of Paladin Glory (The Amazing Mazzy).

Sure you could build an all evil party, but you had many good party options almost by default. I wish I had a choice here.

Larian has put sooo much effort into the voiced characterization, that I want to experience them, but may not. Sure I have had a priestess of Shar in my group before, but she was an outcast from the Underdark that didn't know any different, and earned her place...a redemption story if you will. This lot all seem like a redemption story to me. I will probably take Lae'zel as she seems pretty essential to the plot and honorable enough. interesting yet drama free. I need a cleric but don't want Shadowheart, and the others haven't made a great first impression, so only one voiced companions for me. I am looking forward to the NPC encounters.

I am a kinda disappointed that the Cleric wasn't some kind of moral center for the group, that really set the dark mood. Had they done that and thrown in one more unselfish character, they would have struck a good starting balance. Good is not in vogue obliviously.


Sarcastic but light-hearted review of cast:

Astarion: "What?! A man has to eat." ~OK the spawn of Straad is an interesting touch i'll give you that, just not a good fit at my campfire.

Gale: "I love me...don't you love me?"

Wyll: "If only I hadn't cheated to get this job"

Shadowheart: No

Lae'zel: Not everyday you see a Githyanki around...interesting choice.

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Van’tal, there are more NPCs coming. They just won’t be in early access at launch.

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I believe my first playthrough will be evil and second will be good. One will be a magic caster and the other will be more martial, so I can try out different party members.


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Originally Posted by Van'tal
"I don’t think I could play an entire game that way without deciding to have the hero undergo a redemption arc, but I’ll try it for EA."

That's my problem with giving evil "a try". It just never works for me.



You could try starting as an ordinary person, one who tried to do evil in the world, but then gradually, through weakness, falls into good habits, becoming increasingly Good, though he struggles against it. Then, near his lowest moment, he sees the darkness, and remembers his true self. He turns, fights against Good and eventually triumphs in Glorious Evil. At the end he looks back on his life, and he has a quiet satisfaction of having done the Evil thing. In the background though, not far away, is the ominous calling of Good again...

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Originally Posted by Languid Lizard
Originally Posted by Van'tal
"I don’t think I could play an entire game that way without deciding to have the hero undergo a redemption arc, but I’ll try it for EA."

That's my problem with giving evil "a try". It just never works for me.



You could try starting as an ordinary person, one who tried to do evil in the world, but then gradually, through weakness, falls into good habits, becoming increasingly Good, though he struggles against it. Then, near his lowest moment, he sees the darkness, and remembers his true self. He turns, fights against Good and eventually triumphs in Glorious Evil. At the end he looks back on his life, and he has a quiet satisfaction of having done the Evil thing. In the background though, not far away, is the ominous calling of Good again...


This is a fun idea!

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Swen said all of the NPCs announcers so far are evil or neutral. Astarion is probably Evil, possibly Lae’zel (she is certainly mean). We haven’t seen enough of Gale and nothing of Wyll, yet.


I think Shadowheart is evil. Lae'zel I would probably say more neutral though, only concerned about her quest to defeat Illithids, no matter the means. Astarion definitely evil too.

Last edited by Nyanko; 17/09/20 09:56 PM.
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Just remember, being nice or friendly doesn't mean good, being rude or obnoxious doesn't mean evil.

I'm sure a vampire-spawn can be especially charming and friendly, using it as a front to get his meal ready. Or a cleric of Shar, the goddess of darkness, secrets, revenge and hidden plots, can be very helpful and friendly while giving nothing about herself away and use you to her advantage.

I think Gale and Wyl are neutral, Shadowheart and Lae'zel are evil, and I'm not sure what to make of Astarion since he's got his own mind and will back for the first time in what is likely centuries.


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I won't even go near a game like Tyranny, no matter how well is made. Could be good fun for those who can laugh and understand that it's not real, it's just a game, but I can't. Hurting others feels painful, there's no joy in it.
Every time I did something slightly wrong, in an RPG, just by not understanding how that choice turns out, had to stop and was either game over, or had to restart, because no longer was fun.

It's nothing wrong making games were one can role play as evil, but the best is balancing both: that makes a choice really valuable. In most games is really forced to be the "good guy", no matter how sarcastic or evil answers you give, you still have the same ending; this makes having choices pointless.

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It’s been a while since I played Tyranny, but I can’t recall ever feeling like I was forced to be evil or hurt others. That isn’t what the game is like at all.

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I don't know much about Tyranny, just what I could get from different reviews, and those made me avoid it. Maybe in 10 years there won't be everyone afraid of "spoilers" and could explain what that game is about, beyond the usual "you are serving the evil god and there's no other way".
I enjoyed Pillars of Eternity, and that was dark enough, almost hopeless in the end. But at least could say no to those "gods".

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No real spoilers here. So the premise of Tyranny is that a malevolent and immortal despot has already mostly conquered the world, but that was hundreds of years ago (if I recall correctly), and things have become more routine. You are a high level functionary of the government with a lot of authority and autonomy to handle situations as you see fit. Even though the government is cruel and heartless, you don’t need to be. Thee game has some issues, but I thought it was really neat from a role playing perspective to be thrust into this Charlie Foxtrot grimdark world and try my best to be decent.

Also, the major conflict is between factions within the evil government, basically Lawful Evil v. Chaotic Evil, and of course there is a resistance to join if you want nothing to do with either. There is always a resistance to join in these sorts of games. Even before the game was released and people were complaining about being “forced to be evil,” I was saying “just join the resistance.”

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
No real spoilers here. So the premise of Tyranny is that a malevolent and immortal despot has already mostly conquered the world, but that was hundreds of years ago (if I recall correctly), and things have become more routine. You are a high level functionary of the government with a lot of authority and autonomy to handle situations as you see fit. Even though the government is cruel and heartless, you don’t need to be. Thee game has some issues, but I thought it was really neat from a role playing perspective to be thrust into this Charlie Foxtrot grimdark world and try my best to be decent.

Also, the major conflict is between factions within the evil government, basically Lawful Evil v. Chaotic Evil, and of course there is a resistance to join if you want nothing to do with either. There is always a resistance to join in these sorts of games. Even before the game was released and people were complaining about being “forced to be evil,” I was saying “just join the resistance.”

I thought there was a situation where you had to effectively side with one of the factions; though that didn't mean actually having to play an evil character, which is fortunate as that's not something I enjoy. The setting of Tyranny is pretty evil but the PC doesn't need to be; if anything it's a more noble endeavour to try to undermine that evil from within, which is what I did.

My only real criticism of the game (I mean apart from subjective elements such as me not being a fan of very rigid isometric) is that the last chapter is pretty weak and feels quite unfinished, but that's hardly unique to Tyranny; I've played (at least) as many games that are like that as not.


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Van’tal, there are more NPCs coming. They just won’t be in early access at launch.

Understood...just weighing in on what seems to be missing at first glance (In the companion department). Even a single emotionally secure, bright spirited character can lift the mood of a party. It makes having say a neutral like Jan Jansen and an evil (but coming around) in the party much more fun.

I have enjoyed more than one dark adventure, such as Torment, but this is Faerun not Sigil (where the characters are captured anyway). I am trying to nail down what it is I am experiencing when I watch the game reveals, so that I can give usable feedback.

I will enjoy the game either way.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
It’s been a while since I played Tyranny, but I can’t recall ever feeling like I was forced to be evil or hurt others. That isn’t what the game is like at all.


There might be as well a kind of misconception of what evil is for some people. I guess most players think evil is being a sadistic narcissistic killer or a demon who wants to destroy everything and that's about it. That's what actually D&D is essentially about with its alignment system. But evil is much more complex than that.

There are so many other driving forces which can lead to its path: revenge, coercion, ambition, curse, mental illness, to name a few. And as I hinted in another post, some players play evil without even noticing they do. To some extent, it's also a cultural thing. In some places, some act might be considered evil, but if you cross the border, they are not anymore. And once again, D&D fails in addressing this, making it a universal concept.

So I hope Larian will explore more gray areas. With Avernus and the act of dealing with devils, it would be an interesting thing to do in my opinion.

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It is our everyday life as well, can be different by a lot. The brain can become tired and crave a change.

If all is well, a bit of naughty trick and biting here and there means just fun, and I can agree with that, as long that happens just inside the game or with people who can take it well in real life.
Same if we see many sad things and surrounded by pain, we wish to help, but rarely things can be changed by a lot in real life, though we never give up trying... With this mindset, going into the game, the bliss will be, being able to help, inspire and do what - so much - we would to do around us, in real world.

There could be a balance of wishing a bit of both, or not. If we can do both, then likely we in a good spot. A bit of laugh helps, and I wish everyone would be so happy in life, that they would need the fun of doing "evil" in games. Only in games of course smile

I don't expect every game to be made for everyone, just avoid it if can't enjoy it. I played the Sith Inquisitor in SWTOR, just wanted to see the other maps as well, and surprisingly I could be a maximum light side character, though still limited by the main scripts, I guess in the way Tyranny allows, but was still sad in the end, because I had no options to do more and I actually made the evil side stronger.

I guess I'm not looking to have fun in games, but do "good". That's likely wrong, because games are for fun. Just some of us are broken and can't. That's on us of course.

I still was glad when watched Swen playing in that gameplay presentation, he really enjoyed it. I could agree with "evil" that way, just letting someone else do it, because my joy would be seeing that other person enjoying it. Only in games of course. Who knows, maybe still there's hope, and we can become "evil"? smile

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Originally Posted by Languid Lizard
You could try starting as an ordinary person, one who tried to do evil in the world, but then gradually, through weakness, falls into good habits, becoming increasingly Good, though he struggles against it. Then, near his lowest moment, he sees the darkness, and remembers his true self. He turns, fights against Good and eventually triumphs in Glorious Evil. At the end he looks back on his life, and he has a quiet satisfaction of having done the Evil thing. In the background though, not far away, is the ominous calling of Good again...

Seriously?! This would be an awful character to play for me.
Originally Posted by Nyanko
I think Shadowheart is evil. Lae'zel I would probably say more neutral though, only concerned about her quest to defeat Illithids, no matter the means. Astarion definitely evil too.

I see Shadowheart and Astarion being the evil characters for sure, and Lae'zel being the question mark (evil or neutral).
Originally Posted by LoneSky
Could be good fun for those who can laugh and understand that it's not real, it's just a game, but I can't. Hurting others feels painful, there's no joy in it.
Every time I did something slightly wrong, in an RPG, just by not understanding how that choice turns out, had to stop and was either game over, or had to restart, because no longer was fun.

I am exactly the same way. I also will rather restart my game than continue on in the face of having made a choice that resulted in something awful happening later on.
Originally Posted by Warlocke
No real spoilers here. So the premise of Tyranny is that a malevolent and immortal despot has already mostly conquered the world, but that was hundreds of years ago (if I recall correctly), and things have become more routine. You are a high level functionary of the government with a lot of authority and autonomy to handle situations as you see fit. Even though the government is cruel and heartless, you don’t need to be. Thee game has some issues, but I thought it was really neat from a role playing perspective to be thrust into this Charlie Foxtrot grimdark world and try my best to be decent.

Also, the major conflict is between factions within the evil government, basically Lawful Evil v. Chaotic Evil, and of course there is a resistance to join if you want nothing to do with either. There is always a resistance to join in these sorts of games. Even before the game was released and people were complaining about being “forced to be evil,” I was saying “just join the resistance.”

This is interesting and useful information. Thanks for sharing. Maybe I'll keep an open mind about possibly playing Tyranny in the future.

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