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Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675527
22/09/20 03:47 PM
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Nope, a DnD game does not need sensetivity readers. DnD grew into a beloved and inclusive space for gamers and fantasy enthusiasts of all stripes. It does not need a team of nannys to guard everyones feelings.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675529
22/09/20 03:49 PM
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Oh yeah, fallacy man.

Crybullying is a term. Look it up, it has a meaning, this thread is the definition of it.
It doesnt mean you literaly bully someone. It means you use your tears as a moral leverage to bully a company into complying with your demands.

And yes im making the demand that people stop using moral outrage to push agendas.

Last edited by Sordak; 22/09/20 03:52 PM.
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Warlocke] #675530
22/09/20 03:57 PM
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The reason it can be discounted is that being called names in online games is hardly something exclusive to minorities. If you go play League of Legends for a week it doesnt matter who you are, you will have been called nasty names by someone. If they know some aspect about you they will try to attack that, if they dont it will just be random insults hoping that something will stick.
This behavior is not fun or good or excusable, but it is not a problem steming from racism. Trashtalking is older than video games.

Also if your bad experience is with other people calling you names, that problem will not be solved by trying to shove sensetivity readers into the studio making the game, that random troll you play with online is still going to call both you and me names, trying to rile us up.

If you are really concerned about racist material available for purchase I suggest you focus on trying to get Amazon to pull mein kampf off their store. If the source of racism in society is what books and media people have acess to then surely mein kampf is a much bigger problem than some DnD game?

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Skallewag] #675534
22/09/20 04:10 PM
22/09/20 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Skallewag
The reason it can be discounted is that being called names in online games is hardly something exclusive to minorities. If you go play League of Legends for a week it doesnt matter who you are, you will have been called nasty names by someone. If they know some aspect about you they will try to attack that, if they dont it will just be random insults hoping that something will stick.
This behavior is not fun or good or excusable, but it is not a problem steming from racism. Trashtalking is older than video games.

Also if your bad experience is with other people calling you names, that problem will not be solved by trying to shove sensetivity readers into the studio making the game, that random troll you play with online is still going to call both you and me names, trying to rile us up.

If you are really concerned about racist material available for purchase I suggest you focus on trying to get Amazon to pull mein kampf off their store. If the source of racism in society is what books and media people have acess to then surely mein kampf is a much bigger problem than some DnD game?


A few things here:

A) The insults people use online are not targeted. Plenty of gamers use the terms n***** and f** without knowing anything about the person they are insulting. I absolutely think this is bigoted behavior. Does that make the person a bigot? Not necessarily. It just makes them a jerk. They could actually be a racist or could not, but that is immaterial to the question of whether or not the gaming community is generally open and inviting.

B) The sensitivity training wasn’t my idea. That was the OP’s suggestion to deal with how Larian handles LGBTQ issues. That is a separate conversation from people using bigoted insults online.

C) I’m not concerned about racist material for purchase, and I’m not in favor of censorship, especially with important historical documents, but also in general.

Last edited by Warlocke; 22/09/20 04:11 PM.
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675541
22/09/20 04:58 PM
22/09/20 04:58 PM
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If repeated, bigoted behavior doesn’t make someone a bigot, then what does?

Imagine that there are two strangers who keep calling me racial slurs. One is doing it because he genuinely hates people of my race. The other is doing it because he thinks it gives him a slight competitive edge. Should I treat these situations any differently? Is one more “inclusive” than the other? And how am I supposed to tell them apart, knowing (given both the internet and human nature) that the former will claim to be the latter every time?

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Apocynum] #675542
22/09/20 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Apocynum
If repeated, bigoted behavior doesn’t make someone a bigot, then what does?

Imagine that there are two strangers who keep calling me racial slurs. One is doing it because he genuinely hates people of my race. The other is doing it because he thinks it gives him a slight competitive edge. Should I treat these situations any differently? Is one more “inclusive” than the other? And how am I supposed to tell them apart, knowing (given both the internet and human nature) that the former will claim to be the latter every time?


I’m actually pretty much on board with all of that.

I do think that somebody who exhibits racist behavior because they are immature and think it is cool or edgy or useful isn’t necessarily a racist, but I also think it is a distinction without a difference. Whether they truly have genuine hatred for others or not has no bearing on the appropriateness of their actions, so the question of what is in their heart isn’t even really all that interesting to me. It’s equally gross either way.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Apocynum] #675543
22/09/20 05:08 PM
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The difference lies in who is being targeted and why. A troll in an online game who repeatedly targets whoever is in the game with derogatory comments then the person isnt targeting people based on identity. Its just someone being a jerk.

What words we call things matter. I agree that racism is a bad thing, but if we cant separate between people being jerks and people being racist we just hurt our ability to fight against racism. If you try to fight against racism by figting against people who are just trying to be jerks all you are doing is signalling "hey other person who is trying to rile me up, here is something you can use that is extra effective."

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Skallewag] #675544
22/09/20 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Skallewag
The difference lies in who is being targeted and why. A troll in an online game who repeatedly targets whoever is in the game with derogatory comments then the person isnt targeting people based on identity. Its just someone being a jerk.

What words we call things matter. I agree that racism is a bad thing, but if we cant separate between people being jerks and people being racist we just hurt our ability to fight against racism. If you try to fight against racism by figting against people who are just trying to be jerks all you are doing is signalling "hey other person who is trying to rile me up, here is something you can use that is extra effective."


Hmmmmm, no. Sorry. It’s always wrong to call a stranger on the internet n***** regardless of the intent, and the reason it is wrong is because the term is deeply racist. Whether they are racist in their heart or not doesn’t matter. We can only judge people by their actions and how they choose to present themselves, not what is in their heart. We can never truly know that. People who act like racists deserve to be judged accordingly.

Last edited by Warlocke; 22/09/20 05:24 PM.
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675545
22/09/20 05:36 PM
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If one can distinguish a “genuine racist” from a “trolling jerk” based on who they target, and if we treat “trolling jerk” as harmless, acceptable malice, then it seems to me that the most effective tactic for “genuine racists” to establish themselves in communities would be for them to use racial slurs as much as possible and then claim, when confronted, that they’re only trolling.

This does not seem to me to be a desirable outcome.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675546
22/09/20 05:39 PM
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If someone is comfortable enough to use racism as a weapon, even if their intention is just to be a jerk, it doesn't matter. They are displaying racist behaviors and if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck....

Last edited by DrunkPunk; 22/09/20 05:39 PM.
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675547
22/09/20 05:40 PM
22/09/20 05:40 PM
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I am going to sleep (well okay, in theory). Everybody please be excellent to each other and don't give me nightmares. Thank you.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675548
22/09/20 05:40 PM
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OP quote "how a narrative responds to the representation of marginalized communities" - that's why we have more and more low quality products, like the Star Wars and Dragon Age among others, because instead focusing on artistic freedom, the inclusion of "variety" must be forced into the narrative, doesn't matter if fits or not, just because sheer political pressure.

As long as my character(s) can answer properly, I won't mind any lines, insults included. That's realistic depiction of a situation. Including everyone everywhere, just dilutes a narrative, and what's the point when soon all are just carbon copies of each other?

Sensitivity is fine, we all have that to a point... In the real world we don't live in a bubble, abuse happens at every step, sometimes is a way of life, sometimes it's just misdirected anger, but we always have to be ready to react properly. There are no safe spaces out there, and turning a game into one, just downgrades it to a plastic feel. Unless it's something made for little kids, which isn't the case here.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675550
22/09/20 06:00 PM
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Pretty much.

On the other issue: you wont eliminate mean people, its not gonna happen.
There is a difference between namecalling and discrimination.

one of them is illegal and the other one isnt and shouldnt be.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675551
22/09/20 06:10 PM
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What are you talking about with “safe spaces”? In the very real world of employment and labor, if I call my coworkers racial slurs, I will be fired even if I don’t “mean it.” If I start yelling obscenities in a restaurant, I will be asked to stop and then asked to leave. Is this false? And are you arguing that it should be changed?

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Warlocke] #675554
22/09/20 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Skallewag
The difference lies in who is being targeted and why. A troll in an online game who repeatedly targets whoever is in the game with derogatory comments then the person isnt targeting people based on identity. Its just someone being a jerk.

What words we call things matter. I agree that racism is a bad thing, but if we cant separate between people being jerks and people being racist we just hurt our ability to fight against racism. If you try to fight against racism by figting against people who are just trying to be jerks all you are doing is signalling "hey other person who is trying to rile me up, here is something you can use that is extra effective."


Hmmmmm, no. Sorry. It’s always wrong to call a stranger on the internet n***** regardless of the intent, and the reason it is wrong is because the term is deeply racist. Whether they are racist in their heart or not doesn’t matter. We can only judge people by their actions and how they choose to present themselves, not what is in their heart. We can never truly know that. People who act like racists deserve to be judged accordingly.


Lol, Im not saying it isnt wrong. It is absolutely shitty to call people names online or anywhere. Im simply pointing out that there is a difference between being racist towards someone and being a jerk towards someone, and if you intent to fight racism you will not succeed in doi g so is that the problem you are having with someone is them being a jerk as opposed to them being racist.

Racism, thashtalking, sexism and trolling are all different phenomenons.They are not nice, but they are caused by different things and if you fail to differentiate between them properly you will be ineffective at fighting any of them. It is ofc not your job to care about or do something about these problems, but if you actually do care about either of these problems you need to be able to identify what you are dealing with to combat it with any efficency.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Apocynum] #675556
22/09/20 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Apocynum
If one can distinguish a “genuine racist” from a “trolling jerk” based on who they target, and if we treat “trolling jerk” as harmless, acceptable malice, then it seems to me that the most effective tactic for “genuine racists” to establish themselves in communities would be for them to use racial slurs as much as possible and then claim, when confronted, that they’re only trolling.

This does not seem to me to be a desirable outcome.



Who says its acceptable?

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675558
22/09/20 06:38 PM
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Your use of phrases like “just trolling” and “just trying to rile someone up,” as well as saying that trolling is “not nice” imply that you view it as a relatively minor problem, and that the only solution you propose being “a team of nannys to guard everyones feelings” would further suggest that you view it as an acceptable problem—or at least, that you see the cure as worse than the disease.

Is this inaccurate?

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: Skallewag] #675561
22/09/20 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Skallewag
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Skallewag
The difference lies in who is being targeted and why. A troll in an online game who repeatedly targets whoever is in the game with derogatory comments then the person isnt targeting people based on identity. Its just someone being a jerk.

What words we call things matter. I agree that racism is a bad thing, but if we cant separate between people being jerks and people being racist we just hurt our ability to fight against racism. If you try to fight against racism by figting against people who are just trying to be jerks all you are doing is signalling "hey other person who is trying to rile me up, here is something you can use that is extra effective."


Hmmmmm, no. Sorry. It’s always wrong to call a stranger on the internet n***** regardless of the intent, and the reason it is wrong is because the term is deeply racist. Whether they are racist in their heart or not doesn’t matter. We can only judge people by their actions and how they choose to present themselves, not what is in their heart. We can never truly know that. People who act like racists deserve to be judged accordingly.


Lol, Im not saying it isnt wrong. It is absolutely shitty to call people names online or anywhere. Im simply pointing out that there is a difference between being racist towards someone and being a jerk towards someone, and if you intent to fight racism you will not succeed in doi g so is that the problem you are having with someone is them being a jerk as opposed to them being racist.

Racism, thashtalking, sexism and trolling are all different phenomenons.They are not nice, but they are caused by different things and if you fail to differentiate between them properly you will be ineffective at fighting any of them. It is ofc not your job to care about or do something about these problems, but if you actually do care about either of these problems you need to be able to identify what you are dealing with to combat it with any efficency.


I don’t understand how genuine racist remakes could be distinguished from inauthentic remakes, nor why they require different approaches. Ideally neither should be tolerated, and both should be met with the same general reaction of collective disapproval.

I appreciate that you are able to express alternate views civilly, but I’m not persuaded because you keep insisting that a behavior needs to be treated differently based on intent but haven’t explained why or how.

Last edited by Warlocke; 22/09/20 06:57 PM.
Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: LoneSky] #675562
22/09/20 06:56 PM
22/09/20 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LoneSky
OP quote "how a narrative responds to the representation of marginalized communities" - that's why we have more and more low quality products, like the Star Wars and Dragon Age among others, because instead focusing on artistic freedom, the inclusion of "variety" must be forced into the narrative, doesn't matter if fits or not, just because sheer political pressure.

As long as my character(s) can answer properly, I won't mind any lines, insults included. That's realistic depiction of a situation. Including everyone everywhere, just dilutes a narrative, and what's the point when soon all are just carbon copies of each other?

Sensitivity is fine, we all have that to a point... In the real world we don't live in a bubble, abuse happens at every step, sometimes is a way of life, sometimes it's just misdirected anger, but we always have to be ready to react properly. There are no safe spaces out there, and turning a game into one, just downgrades it to a plastic feel. Unless it's something made for little kids, which isn't the case here.


I’m all about inclusivity and diversity and I hated the new Stars Wars films and Dragon Age each for being poorly crafted. Do you have any evidence that they “failed” (neither has failed commercially, even though Episodes 8 and 9 underperformed they still made over a billion dollars each) for diversity and not for just being generally a bit crap?

I don’t remember any diversity narrative in the new Star Wars movies, though I blocked a lot of it out my mind. There was diversity in casting, sure, but where in the narrative?

And asking for a game to have mindful representation isn’t the same as asking for it to be a safe space.

Re: R&D + Sensitivity Readers [Re: MCPolecat] #675564
22/09/20 07:04 PM
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i dont care what you find and dont find acceptable tbh.
The partial anonymity of the internet is what it is and i prefer it to stay that way.

You cannot make a comparison to real life.

Also, this is basically going off track.

A call of duty kid calling you names is irrelevant to baldurs gate 3

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