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I really debated replying to this thread but this is a subject I feel very strongly about.

The gaming community has always held its hand out with a smile. It is possibly the most accepting and inclusive community you can find despite how many times society has dragged us into the forefront of it's problems and make us responsible for it's issues. Despite the countless media hit pieces. Despite the endless path of compromise where we give half and get nothing in return. We are currently going through the throes of this process yet again and while I do not want to take a side I will say that I am against any and all kind of censorship and despite my flaws, outbursts and aggravations everybody has something to say and everybody has the right to say their piece.

I have removed the name from the quotes with the specific attention of drawing attention away from who said it and draw attention to what was said and this will be a trend of this post. I do not care who you are. I only care about what you have said. Be advised that I am a confrontational and blunt person but I am making an active effort to tone myself down despite not always managing to do this. If I describe a behavior in a negative way I am describing the behavior, not the person.

Quote
I don’t see why somebody calling me n***** or f** in a competitive game should be discounted. At what point did we decide there is ever a time or place when that is an okay way to treat a stranger?

https://www.aclu.org/other/bill-rights-brief-history
You may also enjoy
https://www.un.org/en/sections/issues-depth/human-rights/
I am not American and I do not live in America FYI.

Quote
I'm still sure the majority is fine, and the vocal minority of haters shouldn't define a "community" of any kind, they will always be there, just like the dirt in the house; both needs continuously cleaned up, fought back and ignored until the time is right.

The only people that can be called dirt are those who have violated basic human rights and civil liberties of others. Serial killers, rapists, pedophiles. Outside of these instances no one is dirt and everyone has something to say. Calling someone dirt because they hurt your feelings in an online conversation is infantile and arguably petty. I am not directing this at someone, I am stating it as an observation.

Quote
It doesn’t. That was a side conversation about the nature of the gaming community and had nothing to do with BG3 or single player games.

There is no side nature to the gaming community. There is the gaming community. If it is not directly related to games then it has no place in the gaming community. The gaming community has been dragged kicking and screaming into the forefront of societies problems since puritans and D&D and even before that and it has been exemplar in compromise and accommodation. If these groups where people we would consider it an abusive relationship.

Quote
The insults people use online are not targeted. Plenty of gamers use the terms n***** and f** without knowing anything about the person they are insulting.

I have felt prejudiced on this board for being straight and for being an adult. Please stop acting as if this is a one way street and not an experiment in absurdity. Much like everywhere in life you cannot survive by having thin skin.

I think that is enough for my basic point to have come across so if you aren't interested in what I have to say the next section will be of no interest to you.

The community is not responsible for the actions of anyone in the gaming community. Our community exists by it's shared theme of gaming, everything else comes from outside of this community and should be addressed in such a way. Just because there are certain types of people in the gaming community does not mean that it is okay to throw the accusation towards the entire community or expect it to take responsibility. Many people hold the misinformed view that this is generalization, it is not, it is conflation. You are conflating the gaming community with another community with which you have misgiving's due to reasons that are not gaming and yet you choose the gaming community with which to attack them. What you say sounds good on paper but I will direct you again to the links under the first quote.



I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Argonaut


1. The gaming community has always held its hand out with a smile.

Quote
I don’t see why somebody calling me n***** or f** in a competitive game should be discounted. At what point did we decide there is ever a time or place when that is an okay way to treat a stranger?


2. https://www.aclu.org/other/bill-rights-brief-history
You may also enjoy
https://www.un.org/en/sections/issues-depth/human-rights/
I am not American and I do not live in America FYI.

3. I have felt prejudiced on this board for being straight and for being an adult. Please stop acting as if this is a one way street and not an experiment in absurdity. Much like everywhere in life you cannot survive by having thin skin.

4. The community is not responsible for the actions of anyone in the gaming community. Our community exists by it's shared theme of gaming, everything else comes from outside of this community and should be addressed in such a way. Just because there are certain types of people in the gaming community does not mean that it is okay to throw the accusation towards the entire community or expect it to take responsibility. Many people hold the misinformed view that this is generalization, it is not, it is conflation. You are conflating the gaming community with another community with which you have misgiving's due to reasons that are not gaming and yet you choose the gaming community with which to attack them. What you say sounds good on paper but I will direct you again to the links under the first quote.



These bits of your posts read like jokes and really bad attempts at trolling.

1. lol

2. These are happening within privately owned, online games. While their speech is often totally legal, it is very, very often not permitted within those privately owned, online games, and grounds for bans. Frequently permanent ones.

3. There is a very clear difference between someone like me disliking and disregarding the opinions of a straight person on topics that don't personally affect them on the forum of a pretendy fun game and someone on aforementioned game using terms that have been used throughout history during targeted acts of oppression and violence. It might be a two way street eventually, but it sure isn't now.

4. Writing off the shitty behavior of people who are actively participating in your community as something "outside / external" is just profoundly lazy and dismissive. You have an extremely narrow minded view of what your community is and anything that does not fit that view is no longer a part of it to you. It's an excellent way to never have to actual confront these issues nor feel any need to do anything about them! If you're going to claim to love and appreciate a community you're apart of, the behavior of people within that community (especially those actively participating in it) reflect directly onto you. Yeah, you might not call me a f*g in a video game, but if someone in the lobby does, you're the kind of person who wouldn't do anything about it or care. Very easy to see where you sit from that.

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Originally Posted by QuietCountryCafe
2. These are happening within privately owned, online games. While their speech is often totally legal, it is very, very often not permitted within those privately owned, online games, and grounds for bans. Frequently permanent ones.

Quite. Larian is not an American company and I am not an American moderator; even if that were the case, we are not beholden to essentially unrestricted free speech as this is a privately-owned medium. In this case we do tend to prioritise free speech and to a large extent most things are not moderated but I will personally intervene if something is written that is likely to cause disruption or other problems, whether or not it is done unwittingly. In the case of e.g. "straight people are being discriminated against", I have already said not to bring it up elsewhere as the topic in question was under review (nobody suggested it be reopened, fwiw) and as it is likely to cause disruption. I will say that this is not the appropriate venue for that discussion and further examples will likely be seen unfavourably and dealt with accordingly.


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Originally Posted by QuietCountryCafe

These bits of your posts read like jokes and really bad attempts at trolling.
1. lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Originally Posted by QuietCountryCafe
2. These are happening within privately owned, online games. While their speech is often totally legal, it is very, very often not permitted within those privately owned, online games, and grounds for bans. Frequently permanent ones.

And? I already gave you two links that clearly demonstrate that there is no actual legal, moral or ethical compunction for these communities to do anything and this act is censorship by default. The community makes these compromises in order to be more accepting and inclusive despite how humorous you seemed to find my suggestion of this previously. Let that sink it. You just said that the gaming community is making compromises and trying to be inclusive and accepting after telling me that I was trolling for saying so.

Originally Posted by QuietCountryCafe
3. There is a very clear difference between someone like me disliking and disregarding the opinions of a straight person on topics that don't personally affect them on the forum of a pretendy fun game and someone on aforementioned game using terms that have been used throughout history during targeted acts of oppression and violence. It might be a two way street eventually, but it sure isn't now.


If you would like I can educate you on the 600 year occupation of most of Europe by the Ottoman empire that was known for taking male children as tribute to train as Janissaries where they endured constant sexual abuse by other men.
I can also tell you about the 800 year serfdom of slavs(where do you think this name comes from? Almost like it's only missing one letter isn't it?).

To close on this point, this is not how it works. We do not invalidate a group of people and consider their oppression or discrimination lesser for any reason. Is the trauma of a victim of assault less important than the trauma of one who was assaulted multiple times?

Originally Posted by QuietCountryCafe
4. Writing off the shitty behavior of people who are actively participating in your community as something "outside / external" is just profoundly lazy and dismissive.

I never wrote it off. I said that holding the gaming community responsible for behaviors and attitudes that stem from everywhere but the gaming community is wrong. I said that pointing accusatory fingers at the gaming community for for attitudes and opinions that stem from outside of the community as wrong. This will become clearer below.

Originally Posted by QuietCountryCafe
You have an extremely narrow minded view of what your community is and anything that does not fit that view is no longer a part of it to you.

community
/kəˈmjuːnɪti/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.a group of people living in the same place or having a particular characteristic in common.
2.the condition of sharing or having certain attitudes and interests in common.

We do not live in the same space. We do not share certain attitudes. We have the common characteristic of enjoying video games and our common interest is gaming. Everything outside of that is part of other communities whose members are also a part of the gaming community and yet you want to hold the gaming community not only responsible for these attitudes but you accuse them of being responsible for it. Your feelings on the matter are irrelevant. In factual reality this is how it is. These things you don't like come from outside our community, you cannot hold us responsible as if they come from inside and try to grand stand and guilt us.

Originally Posted by QuietCountryCafe
It's an excellent way to never have to actual confront these issues nor feel any need to do anything about them! If you're going to claim to love and appreciate a community you're apart of, the behavior of people within that community (especially those actively participating in it) reflect directly onto you.

Stop presenting your opinion as fact. You believe that the actions of individuals inside of a community reflects you. I do not. I've already explained that I do not support censorship in any way and I 100% support everyone's right to basic human rights and civil liberties which includes freedom of speech.

Originally Posted by QuietCountryCafe
Yeah, you might not call me a f*g in a video game, but if someone in the lobby does, you're the kind of person who wouldn't do anything about it or care. Very easy to see where you sit from that.

If for some reason I didn't automatically /muteall the moment I entered a lobby full of randoms then I would tell you "Hey, just mute him" before I type /muteall. I would then remind you of the /block feature most games or communities have. It's almost like you already have the tools at your disposal to address this behavior without anyone losing their freedom of speech or expression because the community recognizes it is a problem while also respecting human rights.

Originally Posted by vometia

Quite. Larian is not an American company and I am not an American moderator; even if that were the case, we are not beholden to essentially unrestricted free speech as this is a privately-owned medium. In this case we do tend to prioritise free speech and to a large extent most things are not moderated but I will personally intervene if something is written that is likely to cause disruption or other problems, whether or not it is done unwittingly. In the case of e.g. "straight people are being discriminated against", I have already said not to bring it up elsewhere as the topic in question was under review (nobody suggested it be reopened, fwiw) and as it is likely to cause disruption. I will say that this is not the appropriate venue for that discussion and further examples will likely be seen unfavourably and dealt with accordingly.

I have edited my post to remove as much of what you deem disruptive as possible while attempting to address the points and I apologize if I did not snip enough so I will state that it is not my intention to be disruptive but to argue my case and defend my ideas.







Last edited by Argonaut; 21/10/20 12:57 PM.

I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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Free speech does not mean freedom to say what ever you want. That's where moderation comes in. And a bit of common sense.


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@Argonaut

I had already made the decision not to speak to you, as your poor behavior and constant invective in another topic convinced me that you aren’t somebody worth attempting to hold a conversation with. Since you made such an effort to post here, I will take a moment to correct you on a few points.

1) The Bill of Rights is a statement of guarantees provided by the United States government to its citizens. It has nothing to do with what is polite or proper behavior. I never called for any censorship. I never called for any action at all.

2) I never said that there was a side nature to the gaming community. Read the post.

3) I don’t have a thin skin. I just have an intolerance for bullies and I’m damn proud of it.

4) The gaming community has a bad history of treating women, minorities, and queer gamers as second class members. I can’t count how many times I’ve seen a gamer actively harass somebody who falls into one or more of these categories and everybody else ignores it. If you bring it up they just say “name calling is part of the game,” “get over it,” or “mute them.” All of these sentiments have been echoed in this thread. These are all forms of moral cowardice and this acquiescence by the gaming community is not inclusive for people who are targeted by these verbal attacks.

The correct response is a certain level of collective indignation, much as would certainly happen if somebody said these sorts of vile things in a crowded restaurant. There has long been the sentiment that there is a lower standard for social conduct with online behavior. That’s bull shit. If you wouldn’t say it to a stranger in real life, it’s not appropriate to say with the veil of internet anonymity.

Based on your previous childish conduct I still don’t think you are particularly worth talking to, so I probably won’t respond again. I’m just letting you know in case that impacts your decision to respond.

Last edited by Warlocke; 21/10/20 10:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by The Composer
Free speech does not mean freedom to say what ever you want. That's where moderation comes in. And a bit of common sense.


That is quite literally what freedom of speech and expression mean. Moderation exists for private space, and should never leak into public space. This is only a problem you will come to understand if you ever do have the absolute misfortune of living under an actual oppressive society in which case you will have my deepest condolences.

@Warlocke
1) I've seen you actively calling for censorship and endorsing it.
2) My bad, it turns out your argument was even more delusional than I had initially suspected and everything I said still stands 100% uncontested.
3) You have incredibly thin skin, your entire argument revolves around name calling and you always run away from addressing facts and evidence with ad hominem and shame tactics.
4) Moral cowardice? Like not knowing about 600 years oppression for straight orthodox Byzantine / Greek people by the sadosexual and homosexual ottoman empire or the 800 year serfdom of the white slavs and then saying that these issues do not affect these demographics? Nice double standard.

Moving past that some parts of the gaming community has this reception towards everyone mate. I've been called every slur under the sun and despite my attempts to remain anonymous voice chat and other factors are sometimes a dead giveaway and I get ripped from every angle about my nationality, my voice etc. I just don't have thin skin and don't care. All those demographics have been the ones dragging the community kicking and screaming into the forefront of societal issues while completely ignoring their own problems and detractions and that's why they've suffered backlash. FYI your mentality and what little impact they have had have no only not reduced these attitudes and behaviors but have exasperated them. I'd like to go further on this issue but I've already been made aware of this double standard in moderation so I'll just have to leave it at that.

FYI the reason people will have a reaction in real life is because they can't just walk away from it with zero loss or consequences. It's not a sentiment that there is a lower standard it is an objective reality. I can actively mute anyone I don't want to talk to, block people I don't like and avoid topics I am not interested in and suffer zero consequences where as in real life I have to have a potentially physical confrontation or lose the services or access to an otherwise public domain. These things are not the same, come back to reality. Furthermore, I don't think you'd be willing to treat me the way you are in real life in the same manner as you are with the safety of internet anonymity. Don't outcry a benefit you are actively using.

I also don't care and that is not a threat to me, if you don't want to reply just don't reply.



Last edited by Argonaut; 23/10/20 09:31 AM.

I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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Explain what you think the principle of freedom of speech means then.

The definition I operate by is close to the American constitution interpretation, where even then by the way, has limitations to it. The concept of free speech exists to support the ideal that anyone should be free to express their opinions and ideas without needing to fear retaliation, getting into legal trouble or being censored. If said speech becomes of illegal nature, threatening or a whole list of other sentiments, then freedom of speech isn't something to hide behind any longer. In the real world, law enforcements would get involved with bomb threats - You wouldn't get away with "It's my right to say what I want!".

And Larian is a privately owned company, thus their social platforms aren't the same sort of public space as the park down the street is. Even there, police would wrinkle their noses and have a chat with you if you began being rude or antagonising towards other citizens.

So no, it's as simple as 'behave or be talked to' on most privately owned places on the internet.

Besides, is it really that difficult to be asked to simply behave?



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Originally Posted by The Composer
Explain what you think the principle of freedom of speech means then.


"Freedom of speech[2] is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or legal sanction. The term "freedom of expression" is sometimes used synonymously but includes any act of seeking, receiving, and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used."
"Freedom of speech and expression has a long history that predates modern international human rights instruments.[5] It is thought that the ancient Athenian democratic principle of free speech may have emerged in the late 6th or early 5th century BC.[6] The values of the Roman Republic included freedom of speech and freedom of religion.[7] Concepts of freedom of speech can be found in early human rights documents.[5] England's Bill of Rights 1689 legally established the constitutional right of freedom of speech in Parliament which is still in effect"

You are conflating freedom of speech with freedom of expression. Keep in mind that Freedoms cannot be abrogated. Just to make this a bit more clear it means that freedom of speech supersedes freedom of expression legally and it will do so forever.

Article 10 of the Human Rights Act: Freedom of expression
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

Again, just to clarify, in order to persecute someone under freedom of expression not only must they be in direct violation of other freedoms and rights but they must be attempting to express or impart an idea. Calling someone a fag does not fall under this FYI.

Originally Posted by The Composer
The definition I operate by is close to the American constitution interpretation, where even then by the way, has limitations to it. The concept of free speech exists to support the ideal that anyone should be free to express their opinions and ideas without needing to fear retaliation, getting into legal trouble or being censored. If said speech becomes of illegal nature, threatening or a whole list of other sentiments, then freedom of speech isn't something to hide behind any longer. In the real world, law enforcements would get involved with bomb threats - You wouldn't get away with "It's my right to say what I want!".

Yes, you have conflated freedom of speech with freedom of expression. Look at the definitions above and see that it outlines its own principles very clearly. The only incident in which your freedoms end is when they are in violation of the freedoms of another.

Originally Posted by The Composer
And Larian is a privately owned company, thus their social platforms aren't the same sort of public space as the park down the street is. Even there, police would wrinkle their noses and have a chat with you if you began being rude or antagonising towards other citizens.

Yes I never contested that, merely your understanding of these freedoms. And yes, sometimes official government agencies have agendas and fall under the agendas of government but this is not a discussions of the drawbacks of big government or excessive governing. You can choose to moderate in this manner while another private domain might choose not to and that is their right.

Originally Posted by The Composer
So no, it's as simple as 'behave or be talked to' on most privately owned places on the internet.

Besides, is it really that difficult to be asked to simply behave?

Again, I didn't contest this either. What I have been contesting is peoples understanding of human civil liberties(freedom of expression) and human rights(freedom of speech). I've also been contesting the misguided viewpoint that things are a one way street or other fallacious viewpoints by citing history and evidence(800 year serfdom, 600 year occupation by ottoman empire). You can read this as one side has to behave while the other doesn't or as both sides incite disorder yet only one is held accountable.

Last edited by Argonaut; 23/10/20 11:01 AM.

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
I really debated replying to this thread but this is a subject I feel very strongly about.

The gaming community has always held its hand out with a smile. It is possibly the most accepting and inclusive community you can find despite how many times society has dragged us into the forefront of it's problems and make us responsible for it's issues. Despite the countless media hit pieces. Despite the endless path of compromise where we give half and get nothing in return. We are currently going through the throes of this process yet again and while I do not want to take a side I will say that I am against any and all kind of censorship and despite my flaws, outbursts and aggravations everybody has something to say and everybody has the right to say their piece.

I have removed the name from the quotes with the specific attention of drawing attention away from who said it and draw attention to what was said and this will be a trend of this post. I do not care who you are. I only care about what you have said. Be advised that I am a confrontational and blunt person but I am making an active effort to tone myself down despite not always managing to do this. If I describe a behavior in a negative way I am describing the behavior, not the person.

Quote
I don’t see why somebody calling me n***** or f** in a competitive game should be discounted. At what point did we decide there is ever a time or place when that is an okay way to treat a stranger?

https://www.aclu.org/other/bill-rights-brief-history
You may also enjoy WorkTime cloud based employee monitoring
I am not American and I do not live in America FYI.

Quote
I'm still sure the majority is fine, and the vocal minority of haters shouldn't define a "community" of any kind, they will always be there, just like the dirt in the house; both needs continuously cleaned up, fought back and ignored until the time is right.

The only people that can be called dirt are those who have violated basic human rights and civil liberties of others. Serial killers, rapists, pedophiles. Outside of these instances no one is dirt and everyone has something to say. Calling someone dirt because they hurt your feelings in an online conversation is infantile and arguably petty. I am not directing this at someone, I am stating it as an observation.

Quote
It doesn’t. That was a side conversation about the nature of the gaming community and had nothing to do with BG3 or single player games.

There is no side nature to the gaming community. There is the gaming community. If it is not directly related to games then it has no place in the gaming community. The gaming community has been dragged kicking and screaming into the forefront of societies problems since puritans and D&D and even before that and it has been exemplar in compromise and accommodation. If these groups where people we would consider it an abusive relationship.

Quote
The insults people use online are not targeted. Plenty of gamers use the terms n***** and f** without knowing anything about the person they are insulting.

I have felt prejudiced on this board for being straight and for being an adult. Please stop acting as if this is a one way street and not an experiment in absurdity. Much like everywhere in life you cannot survive by having thin skin.

I think that is enough for my basic point to have come across so if you aren't interested in what I have to say the next section will be of no interest to you.

The community is not responsible for the actions of anyone in the gaming community. Our community exists by it's shared theme of gaming, everything else comes from outside of this community and should be addressed in such a way. Just because there are certain types of people in the gaming community does not mean that it is okay to throw the accusation towards the entire community or expect it to take responsibility. Many people hold the misinformed view that this is generalization, it is not, it is conflation. You are conflating the gaming community with another community with which you have misgiving's due to reasons that are not gaming and yet you choose the gaming community with which to attack them. What you say sounds good on paper but I will direct you again to the links under the first quote.


Originally Posted by Argonaut
I really debated replying to this thread but this is a subject I feel very strongly about.

The gaming community has always held its hand out with a smile. It is possibly the most accepting and inclusive community you can find despite how many times society has dragged us into the forefront of it's problems and make us responsible for it's issues. Despite the countless media hit pieces. Despite the endless path of compromise where we give half and get nothing in return. We are currently going through the throes of this process yet again and while I do not want to take a side I will say that I am against any and all kind of censorship and despite my flaws, outbursts and aggravations everybody has something to say and everybody has the right to say their piece.

I have removed the name from the quotes with the specific attention of drawing attention away from who said it and draw attention to what was said and this will be a trend of this post. I do not care who you are. I only care about what you have said. Be advised that I am a confrontational and blunt person but I am making an active effort to tone myself down despite not always managing to do this. If I describe a behavior in a negative way I am describing the behavior, not the person.

Quote
I don’t see why somebody calling me n***** or f** in a competitive game should be discounted. At what point did we decide there is ever a time or place when that is an okay way to treat a stranger?

https://www.aclu.org/other/bill-rights-brief-history
You may also enjoy WorkTime cloud based employee monitoring
I am not American and I do not live in America FYI.

Quote
I'm still sure the majority is fine, and the vocal minority of haters shouldn't define a "community" of any kind, they will always be there, just like the dirt in the house; both needs continuously cleaned up, fought back and ignored until the time is right.

The only people that can be called dirt are those who have violated basic human rights and civil liberties of others. Serial killers, rapists, pedophiles. Outside of these instances no one is dirt and everyone has something to say. Calling someone dirt because they hurt your feelings in an online conversation is infantile and arguably petty. I am not directing this at someone, I am stating it as an observation.

Quote
It doesn’t. That was a side conversation about the nature of the gaming community and had nothing to do with BG3 or single player games.

There is no side nature to the gaming community. There is the gaming community. If it is not directly related to games then it has no place in the gaming community. The gaming community has been dragged kicking and screaming into the forefront of societies problems since puritans and D&D and even before that and it has been exemplar in compromise and accommodation. If these groups where people we would consider it an abusive relationship.

Quote
The insults people use online are not targeted. Plenty of gamers use the terms n***** and f** without knowing anything about the person they are insulting.

I have felt prejudiced on this board for being straight and for being an adult. Please stop acting as if this is a one way street and not an experiment in absurdity. Much like everywhere in life you cannot survive by having thin skin.

I think that is enough for my basic point to have come across so if you aren't interested in what I have to say the next section will be of no interest to you.

The community is not responsible for the actions of anyone in the gaming community. Our community exists by it's shared theme of gaming, everything else comes from outside of this community and should be addressed in such a way. Just because there are certain types of people in the gaming community does not mean that it is okay to throw the accusation towards the entire community or expect it to take responsibility. Many people hold the misinformed view that this is generalization, it is not, it is conflation. You are conflating the gaming community with another community with which you have misgiving's due to reasons that are not gaming and yet you choose the gaming community with which to attack them. What you say sounds good on paper but I will direct you again to the links under the first quote.




Wow
your answer makes me wonder

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in high school in your experience were gamers the exclusive clique and anyone could join the jocks and cool kids? That wasn't the case back when parents were being warned that playing D&D probably meant their children had joined a satanic cult.

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