Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Oct 2020
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
I would say that most spells should not create a "surface", unless they are AOE, and even then it should be limited.

A fireball might cause a fire surface if there was an accelerant (like grease), but most of the time it would explode and fizzle out while maybe catching some dry wood or papers on fire. Casting fireball should not ignite a stone surface, and if cast on ice should make a water surface. Acid/poison should only make a surface if it's an AOE... and should disipate within a small handful of turns. AOE ice spells could create an ice surface on stone or water surfaces (probably not on dirt), but should quickly change to a water unless the environment is cold.

Joined: Oct 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
From Fireball "The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried." so yes, Fireball may leave a burning area.

My point is yes, the higher level spell can do terrain effects but not the cantrips or arrows. Save the fancy surface effects for higher level spells to make them special.

Adding to this.

About grease:

Jeremy Crawford
@JeremyECrawford
If the grease spell created a flammable substance, the spell would say so. It doesn't say so. #DnD

Well, that cancels casting grease then lighting it on fire with firebolt.

Now, Web could be fun.

The webs are flammable. Any 5-foot cube of webs exposed to fire burns away in 1 round, dealing 2d4 fire damage to any creature that starts its turn in the fire.

I really do want the surface effects for the higher level spells, it is in the rules, hope they use them.

Last edited by Merry Mayhem; 10/10/20 04:36 AM.
Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
As I said in another thread, I think a game mode more in line with 5e would solve the issue. No surfaces from cantrips, arrows etc, no bonus action disengage or shove and similar stuff. I do not think removing the surface effect from firebolt and making it a D10 again would require much work on Larians part. And those of us who prefer to play something that is closer to what we play with our friends at the table, would be happy.

Last edited by Ascorius; 10/10/20 04:54 AM.
Joined: Oct 2020
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
Having cantrips only create surfaces if targeted at the ground seems like a fair middle ground. Firebolting an enemy is a normal 1d10. Firebolting the ground leaves a little flame patch. I'd also be fine with full 5e, no surfaces from cantrips at all, but different behavior for targeting ground vs enemies seems like a compromise.

Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
I've thought about this. "Save or Suck" style cantrips make sense. Essentially thats what you are doing with a dex save, you are getting out of the way of something hitting where you are at. However Fire Bolt needs to be designed how it is in DND. Ignite where applicable (oil puddles) but balanced around just hitting hard. Produce Flame / Create Bonfire can fill the void of surface effect generators. In fact just rename the current iteration of Firebolt to Produce Flame, and make the D10+lights oil Flame Bolt for the sake of balance and choices.


I feel like there needs to be a lot more cantrips and they need to balance them better. but I do see value in some of them leaving surface effects. I would like to see as much of the pencil and paper game in this as possible. That includes Green-Flame blade, Booming Blade, Thorn Whip (which is pretty much in game mechanically as Lae'Zels Illithid power move). I'd even like to see poison surface effects if they just use the same mechanics as DND (disadvantage on checks and saves rather than damage)


Honestly if dex saves where more involved with surface effects, I think balance would be less of an issue. Part of the overtuned feeling comes from the effects just automatically hitting and/or doing so for full damage.

Last edited by pill0ws; 10/10/20 03:36 PM.
Joined: May 2014
D
member
Offline
member
D
Joined: May 2014
+1

Joined: Oct 2020
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by crabsmack
Having cantrips only create surfaces if targeted at the ground seems like a fair middle ground. Firebolting an enemy is a normal 1d10. Firebolting the ground leaves a little flame patch. I'd also be fine with full 5e, no surfaces from cantrips at all, but different behavior for targeting ground vs enemies seems like a compromise.


I love this compromise, and this idea reminded me of a certain druid cantrip. "Produce Flame" would be a perfect cantrip that allows you to make a fire surface, in PnP it kinda sucks. You take an action to make fire, and then you have to spend another action to hurl it, which is really firebolt that costs two actions to use. Now creating fire surface would be interesting.




Joined: Aug 2014
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Aug 2014
I agree that the cantrips are too loaded now. But I wouldn't completely the remove the surface effects since they do add tactical depth and fun choices to the game. The most elegant solution would be to..

1) Keep cantrips exactly as they are in 5e

2) Add the option of targeting the ground instead of a creature.

With Firebolt you would have a choice: 1d10 to character OR target ground to create small fire surface (1d4, Dex save).

Same with Ray of Frost: normal effect OR target ground to potentially create an ice surface.

These surfaces need to remain small with probably a duration of only 1 round.

edit: I saw this was already discussed.. so +1

Last edited by 1varangian; 10/10/20 09:00 AM.
Joined: Jun 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2020
I find myself wondering if in a game sense they bring some balance - some pretty tough scraps at level 3 in the blighted village - got my ass handed to me in the under dark. With next to no spells cantrips may be there to counter the high level monster abilities ?

Up until this point I agreed whole heartedly - but you get a pack of big boys amongst your characters and things can go sideways real quick.

In saying that getting wiped once makes you think very much more about the second attempt & just reading these forums there are some really good hints & tips

So now I’m in two minds about cantrips ......

Joined: Oct 2020
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by 1varangian
I agree that the cantrips are too loaded now. But I wouldn't completely the remove the surface effects since they do add tactical depth and fun choices to the game. The most elegant solution would be to..

1) Keep cantrips exactly as they are in 5e

2) Add the option of targeting the ground instead of a creature.

With Firebolt you would have a choice: 1d10 to character OR target ground to create small fire surface (1d4, Dex save).

Same with Ray of Frost: normal effect OR target ground to potentially create an ice surface.

These surfaces need to remain small with probably a duration of only 1 round.


this! +1 Don't wholesale remove surface creation, it really adds to the game

Joined: Oct 2020
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
When playing Tabletop, your DM is trying to a specific number of encounters in front of you during your normal daily rest. In a video game (at least BG1&2) I expect that number of encounters to increase dramatically per rest (how easy it is to rest is a completely different subject). As such I do think that Cantrips could use some tweaking because without ability being added to damage, cantrips really fall off as useful tools in tabletop from around level 7 and up (and 11 and up even if you have your attribute adding, it in no way compensates for the extra attacks that melee, ranged and Eldrich Blasters get). In tabletop you effectively have enough spells not to worry about needing to cast a cantrip at this point, you have reached a number of spells you could cast over the course of a normal night of gaming without ever having to rely on a cantrip, cantrips just fill the gap when you don't have something better you could be doing or want to preserve spell slots.

That said the changes made to Ray of Frost seem awfully OP as you scale up your DC to resist the fall down will keep going up.

The changes made to Firebolt seem to make it only useful when explosive canisters are near however. I can't think of a time after 5th level when it's doing 2d6 with no modifier I would want to use it, will the fire damage for the patch of ground the enemy is in go up as well, I don't think so, just like burning a web spell doesn't go up.

Acid Spray on the other hand goes completely against the design of 5e. They wanted to get rid of all the +1, -1, +2, -2 bonuses that plagued 3.5. In 3.5 it was extremely common for someone to add up their attack roll, tell the DM a number and be told they missed, then say "Oh yeah, forgot to count Bless/Bard Song/Prayer/Flank" and add 2 to their number and now it's a hit. Now Bless and Bard Song are dice you have to remember to roll, most other buffs give advantage, Prayer was removed. If you have to add +2 to something, like say dualist or expertise for a rogue, it's an always on thing, it can be factored in and written down on your sheet and you should be able to trust your sheet. Shield of Faith is quite the standout here as it does give a flat bonus but it also requires concentration so a player somewhere is actively remembering to tell the person their AC is increased.

The best debuff you can get out of a cantrip in 5e was the bard's Vicious Mockery and it had to be d4 damage to get the ability to make 1 attack be done with disadvantage. Not even all attacks if say a beast had 2 claw attacks.

I really don't like the direction of Acid Spray and while I don't mind some creative liberty being taken with cantrips (people are stuck at level 4 and below, where these spells are a disproportionally large percentage of your normal spell casts) to make them interesting later. Make sure they stay in the spirit of the 5e rules

Last edited by Koshea; 10/10/20 12:18 PM.
Joined: Oct 2020
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
+1 to removing this and/or reverting to PnP spells.

Cantrips are supposed to be the mechanical equivalent of a non-spellcaster's basic action in combat, spellcasters already have a bunch of other abilities/spells that can have far more exotic effects and adding these into the cantrips seems greatly unbalanced.

I'd still be in favour of effects where they make sense, and where the spell specifically calls for it. Taking Firebolt for example, the PnP spell description states that:

"You hurl a mote of fire at a creature or object within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 fire damage. A flammable object hit by this spell ignites if it isn't being worn or carried."

I think the undelined elements are the most important part here, at the moment Firebolt can set people, stone, rocks, trees and grass aflame with equal capability. If this was limited to cases where it makes sense then I don't think as many people would have a problem with it.

Last edited by praxidicae; 10/10/20 01:17 PM.
Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by praxidicae


Cantrips are supposed to be the mechanical equivalent of a non-spellcaster's basic action in combat, spellcasters already have a bunch of other abilities/spells that can have far more exotic effects and adding these into the cantrips seems greatly unbalanced.

I think the undelined elements are the most important part here, at the moment Firebolt can set people, stone, rocks, trees and grass aflame with equal capability. If this was limited to cases where it makes sense then I don't think as many people would have a problem with it.


+1 to it at least making sense. Firebolt lighting actual flammables instead of everything. Ray of Frost may not seem so broken if it only actually froze water under its target rather than leaving a patch of ice that knocked them prone every time. Similar to the shocking pool mechanic in DoS where two elements create a strong control effect. Acid Splash in Baldurs Gate 3 should have the same radius as Poison Dart in DoS, shift the big radius armor debuff function into a spell slot. They can code the "cleave" mechanic to have it hit a second target within range like in 5e and then they will have the infrastructure to add in Green-Flame blade as melee version of the mechanic wink

Last edited by pill0ws; 10/10/20 04:01 PM.
Joined: Oct 2020
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by 1varangian
I agree that the cantrips are too loaded now. But I wouldn't completely the remove the surface effects since they do add tactical depth and fun choices to the game. The most elegant solution would be to..

1) Keep cantrips exactly as they are in 5e

2) Add the option of targeting the ground instead of a creature.

With Firebolt you would have a choice: 1d10 to character OR target ground to create small fire surface (1d4, Dex save).

Same with Ray of Frost: normal effect OR target ground to potentially create an ice surface.

These surfaces need to remain small with probably a duration of only 1 round.

edit: I saw this was already discussed.. so +1


+1 ;to this

Joined: Oct 2020
V
stranger
Offline
stranger
V
Joined: Oct 2020
no please don't remove this

Joined: Oct 2020
O
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
O
Joined: Oct 2020
I agree with the OP
I have been making posts on this issue myself and once again i would advocate for a simple tagbox in setting thats says 5E correct spells & cantrips on/off

Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
My most current opinion here is to keep surface effects on cantrips but tune the surface effects. Firebolt feels so strong because it hits so many times now; it hits so many times because fire surface does damage on hit.. then at the beginning of the targets turn, then the moment the target tries to move if they dont jump and/or a proc from burning debuff (which was rarely seen in 5e at these early levels). Dex saves should be possible on fire surfaces, like it is for Fireball and other area based effects in 5e. Part of the problem is all of the surfaces need to follow 5e rules, not Divinity rules; and 5e usually does hit rolls for single target effects, and save rolls for area effects. Fire surface is an area effect that is currently only reducible with niche racial/class features whereas the other effects can be avoided with a successful save roll.

Adjust fire surface to 5e rules, give us save rolls against fire, even if its just a "half damage on success" roll


Last edited by pill0ws; 18/10/20 04:10 PM.
Joined: Aug 2014
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Aug 2014
I believe it would please both the "exactly as in PHB" camp and the "surfaces can be good" camp if they would just separate the surface creation from the damage dealing. Choose one, not both.

I think the only problem is that Fire Bolt and Ray of Frost are overpowered when they do both damage AND surface for more damage or prone. And having to spread surfaces as a side effect where you don't want them is frustrating. Like the Web example.

Also Fire Bolt would feel great if it could hit face for 10.

Joined: Jan 2009
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jan 2009
I fought High Priestess Gut in her quarters and I could absolutely not hit her at all. It was miss after miss after miss.

One of the misses was a Firebolt. It completely missed her, and it did 12 damage from the Burning status from the surface effect hitting her immediately, then being re-applied after she runs out of the fire. That's 1/3rd of her total health from a complete miss.

Joined: Oct 2020
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by rfuzzo
Originally Posted by 1varangian
I agree that the cantrips are too loaded now. But I wouldn't completely the remove the surface effects since they do add tactical depth and fun choices to the game. The most elegant solution would be to..

1) Keep cantrips exactly as they are in 5e

2) Add the option of targeting the ground instead of a creature.

With Firebolt you would have a choice: 1d10 to character OR target ground to create small fire surface (1d4, Dex save).

Same with Ray of Frost: normal effect OR target ground to potentially create an ice surface.

These surfaces need to remain small with probably a duration of only 1 round.


this! +1 Don't wholesale remove surface creation, it really adds to the game


I disagree entirely.
Firebolt shouldn't cause any kind of Surface Fire. It would still end up dealing damage to people around if when you ignite the ground below them, and as their turn begins, as it does now.

It's nonsense that Cantrips have been considered to do this at all to begin with at all.

Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5