Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Sep 2017
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
Joined: Sep 2017
Okay, I've seen this covered a few times but it's big enough a deal to me that I want to put it in its own feedback thread for me.

Right now, the dice is absolutely terrible and shows up at awkward moments. Being a longtime DnD player, when the dice is used is usually an indicator of the kind of GM we have running things, but it's usually newer ones that try to make people roll for literally everything - you just got up from bed? Roll to see if you rose too quickly and got dizzy. You just ate your sandwich? Roll to see if it gives you heartburn. Etc, etc. A good GM will lean on the dice enough to keep things a little chaotic and fun but not so much that it just gets tedious or slows the game down. A good GM is also a human that can carefully gauge the party and people behind them and then make conscious decisions, more or less ensuring the group is having fun. At least, a good one will. Yeah, some will be rule lords and treat the books like bibles, while others instead ofcus on storytelling and a fun experience and aren't afraid to change things up or fuzz rolls/consequences a bit to keep the game fun and moving or allow for moments of character development/portrayal.

There's no GM here, which is something it seems all developers who translate tabletop games to PC always forget. Right now, dice roll moments feel sort of random and not at all very tied to my character. Some make absolute sense, but some I'm just scratching my head.

The second part is that unlike, say, Bioware games or Dragon's Age, stats alone aren't enough to guarantee an action, since rolls always mean it's really up to chance. When something fails despite building your character to excel at that one thing, it feels terrible, and the lack of varied states of success or failure (as far as I can tell), makes it feel crazy binary.

Now, there's nothing wrong with the dice itself - obviously. It's like, the very core of DnD. But you need to give a better sense when it'll come up and make it more exciting and/or terrifying, other than a fear of blind stupid luck ruining your roleplay or plan. Important decisions should always have varied levels of success or failure. SHOW players their bonuses at the end, after the base roll, so players feel good that their specific character choices are what won them the roll by one point, or whatever. It gives a better feel of player agency.

I hate to say it, but it probably needs to be presented a lot better too, like having the numbers/dice grow green and surge, with a nice sound effect, when a player's bonuses wins them the role, or they just BARELY fail, as well as during extremes (like critical misses). These are moments GMs usually really hang on and build up suspense,and it's completely absent here. I very quickly began to sigh whenever the dice came up and I rarely feel that way in the tabletop.

I know you guys have WoTC breathing down your necks, but you should seriously consider decoupling the game from the tabletop a lot more, imo, and focus on making the game FEEL more like the tabletop instead of trying to make it BE more like the tabletop, because that it will NEVER become. The lack of a true GM already slaps that idea across the face. Some areas that imo need a bit more work:

  • there needs to be more information - you guys seriously need to do active tooltips for new players to explain stuff like Finnese
  • The slower pace of DnD leveling pretty much flat-out doesn't work in the computer game space, and a ton of players will probably not be happy waiting until halfway/near to cap before really becoming their class. I'm not sure what you can do here, but going by interviews, it seems you're aware of this and testing stuff out. Good. I really don't mind and/or care, but a lot of my friends are already planning stuff like they're going to hit level 7 in the first few hours of play, lol, and are mighty disappointed knowing they're going to be, like, level 4 for a third of the game if not more, probably.
  • You need to make dice rolls a thousand and one times more exciting. I seriously think you should consider adding in bonuses and any negatives at the end, all flashy like, to add that extra flair and sense of excitement. Maybe add custom dice you can earn from achievements and stuff in game; custom dice are always cool to bring to the tabletop
  • Any chance there'll be a highlight intractable button? Not a must, but people are already used to having one. Just a suggestion. It's already a little bit tedious scrolling over every desk to spot little scrolls I had a hard time seeing zoomed out.


I haven't played much, so these are mostly my initial thoughts, and I'll put out more as I continue to fiddle around with the game. Overall though, I think you guys really have something here. The game IS fun, flaws aside, and looks and especially sounds beautiful. The standard injection of Larian passion oozes from every bone, vessel, and facet of BG3, and I honestly couldn't think of anyone else - not Obsidian, not Owlcat, not Inxile, not Bioware - I would have preferred to have made this game instead. And you guys DELIVERED. A year of polishing and fixing the subjective player experience (lol), and I honestly think you guys will end up baking 2021's GoTY, easily.

Keep it up!




Last edited by Nightmarian; 07/10/20 07:19 AM. Reason: Typos, Clarity
Joined: Sep 2015
N
old hand
Offline
old hand
N
Joined: Sep 2015
Have you seen any advantage/disadvantage rolls so far? Like are there 2 dice on the screen? How does it work?

Joined: Jun 2014
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2014
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Have you seen any advantage/disadvantage rolls so far? Like are there 2 dice on the screen? How does it work?

I have not

Joined: Sep 2017
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Nyanko
Have you seen any advantage/disadvantage rolls so far? Like are there 2 dice on the screen? How does it work?


I haven't found any examples of it yet, but that's a good point, as I think it would help make the early game feel a lot less like Xcom, lmao, though I guess that's the traditional DnD experience anyway. People complained about low level Pathfinder: Kingmaker, too, and I said the same thing there about needing to make it feel more like a table top game rather than trying to make it be exactly like the tabletop game. A more liberal use of advantage might really help things along.

I know Larian designed the game so failure isn't the end, but it still feels bad to constantly fail at the few things you're supposed to be good at, and it's terrible for roleplaying, which is the whole point on the tabletop.

Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
For the dice rolls @nyanko you always roll a 1D20 dice and the roll you need goes down depending on the type of check needed and your proficiency in that skill. also you can reroll the dice in certain situations.


as for the highlight intractable button @ nightmarian I believe the ALT key does what your looking for.


I do agree though nightmarian rolling for everything does feel kinda bad and slows down the gameplay. Plus it promotes save-scumming. At least it does for me. Would like to see it worked on also.

Joined: Sep 2015
N
old hand
Offline
old hand
N
Joined: Sep 2015
Originally Posted by Bray
For the dice rolls @nyanko you always roll a 1D20 dice and the roll you need goes down depending on the type of check needed and your proficiency in that skill. also you can reroll the dice in certain situations.


as for the highlight intractable button @ nightmarian I believe the ALT key does what your looking for.


I do agree though nightmarian rolling for everything does feel kinda bad and slows down the gameplay. Plus it promotes save-scumming. At least it does for me. Would like to see it worked on also.


Yeah, so it's like in combat. I have noticed that if you have a disadvantage, and your normal chance is 75%, it goes down to 56 (0.75 * 0.75 = 0.5625). I think they should have shown two dice for non combat actions. It would have been more visual, adding tension or relief depending on it being a disadvantage or an advantage respectively.

Joined: Jan 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Jan 2020
you should see how many times I missed an ogre that takes up 90% of my screen... FUN TIMES!

Joined: Oct 2020
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
I would love to see the two dice side-by-side, with the affecting dice highlighted somehow. Green for advantage and red for disadvantage? And the dismissed roll darkened?

Regarding the leveling speed, I was actually surprised by the speed at which my party levels up! I think something like 75-80 % of this speed would make it feel like more of an accomplishment. I didn't even have the chance to try out most of my new spells or abilities before gaining new ones!

Joined: Sep 2017
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Emulate
you should see how many times I missed an ogre that takes up 90% of my screen... FUN TIMES!


That's the xcom factor I was talking about - people joke about how often you consistently miss even with 99% chance to hit and the animation having your gun pressed against the gut of this hulking beast 10 times your size, because 99% isn't really 99% in xcom. This is true in both Pathfinder and DnD though, so wiffing isn't exactly unusual, especially in the older editions, but it isn't fun in a PC game and becomes trivialized by endgame anyawys, usually. Fighting against high AC enemies is also super frustrating, as you don't even chip away consistently like in regular (J)RPGs, you just "miss" again and again. Realistic, but again... not fun. It was whined about in Xcom, it was whined about in Pathfinder: Kingamer game, it was whined about in Pillars of Eternity 1/2. It wasn't nearly as bad in either Original Sin game though.


Originally Posted by Bray
For the dice rolls @nyanko you always roll a 1D20 dice and the roll you need goes down depending on the type of check needed and your proficiency in that skill. also you can reroll the dice in certain situations.


as for the highlight intractable button @ nightmarian I believe the ALT key does what your looking for.


I do agree though nightmarian rolling for everything does feel kinda bad and slows down the gameplay. Plus it promotes save-scumming. At least it does for me. Would like to see it worked on also.


Alt just expands tooltips, not sure what that does but it doesn't highlight interactable. You can hover over a character or item and see the outline, but no button does it all at once for everything on screen.




Originally Posted by Nyanko
Originally Posted by Bray
For the dice rolls @nyanko you always roll a 1D20 dice and the roll you need goes down depending on the type of check needed and your proficiency in that skill. also you can reroll the dice in certain situations.


as for the highlight intractable button @ nightmarian I believe the ALT key does what your looking for.


I do agree though nightmarian rolling for everything does feel kinda bad and slows down the gameplay. Plus it promotes save-scumming. At least it does for me. Would like to see it worked on also.


Yeah, so it's like in combat. I have noticed that if you have a disadvantage, and your normal chance is 75%, it goes down to 56 (0.75 * 0.75 = 0.5625). I think they should have shown two dice for non combat actions. It would have been more visual, adding tension or relief depending on it being a disadvantage or an advantage respectively.


If it's there, then it's poorly conveyed to the player. If so, then it can be rolled (no pun intended) into what I've talked about in making dice a better part of the experience and presenting the influence of rolls better.

Originally Posted by pasisti
I would love to see the two dice side-by-side, with the affecting dice highlighted somehow. Green for advantage and red for disadvantage? And the dismissed roll darkened?

Regarding the leveling speed, I was actually surprised by the speed at which my party levels up! I think something like 75-80 % of this speed would make it feel like more of an accomplishment. I didn't even have the chance to try out most of my new spells or abilities before gaining new ones!


Yeah, I'm noticing that it's already stretched out some now. Based on my early progress, I assumed it was going to be the same pace as regular DnD, which is fine on the tabletop, but I think they're already testing a stretched out leveling curve now. I do know they said they would because of this exact issue. DnD players know that 10 really isn't a low level cap, but in a digital genre where you very often hit 10 in like the first few hours, from action RPGs to JRPGs and MMORPGs, and in an age during which everyone seemingly needs a carrot on a stick, I was a little worried.




Last edited by Nightmarian; 07/10/20 09:06 AM. Reason: Typos, Clarity

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5