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Joined: Oct 2020
stranger
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Hi Larian, I thought I would give my feedback from the perspective of someone who was looking forward to a D&D game using the 5e ruleset. However, fit feels more like a thin veneer of D&D over a DOS skin.

I wrote this out many times with lists etc, but in the end, for me, it comes down to 3 major areas:

1) Combat does not feel like D&D 5e and instead feels like DOS
2) Camera/movement very clunky and ruins immersion in the game
3) Roleplay options in dialogue - consistency based on type of person I am

I list some of the reasons below. But, I was wondering... will you continue to shape the game more like D&D and less like DOS or do you envision the game releasing much as it is now, just more polished?

BTW, it is a beautiful game and I appreciate all the work you put into it.



EXAMPLES:

1) Combat does not feel like D&D
- You have the action economy (action, bonus and reaction). This is good, but not fully correct yet (like spells with bonus weapons)
- Weapons have abilities, like pin with bow or smash with hammer. Not a D&D thing, feels like DOS
- Environmental effects everywhere all the time. Not really a D&D thing (maybe rarely). REALLY feels like DOS
- Class abilities not formed (ie no choice for fighter at 1st lvl to be good at archery or dual wielding etc. Thief Sneak attack only selectable instead of just on)


2) Camera/character movement clunky
- I am trying to move the camera around to get the best look and it is all over the place. Completely removes me from the experience. I would LOVE to have the ability to have the camera follow the character as I move them with the wsad keys. Then when combat occurs and initiative starts, be able to swap to a top down view. Even a grid option would be cool.

3) Roleplay
- I find it very fun in games like this to come up with a personality for my main character, like sarcastic, happy/nice, angry/mean, power hungry etc. Having consistent dialogue choices for that thematically plays well with the game and what I envision in my mind.


Joined: Oct 2020
enthusiast
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fingers crossed some of the things you listed will get fixed as the classes are fleshed out.

action economy and what uses what kind of action definitely needs an overhaul at the moment.

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stranger
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I am a bit torn on the weapon abilities. On one hand, you are right; They aren't in the 5e ruleset. On the other hand, I actually really like them; They help making the weapons feel different from each other

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I feel like I should chime in here and say that environmental effects absolutely should be a thing in 5e, and Larian has helped me to see that.

Ever since playing DivOS I started incorporating environmental effects into my 5e and other TTRPG games and they have greatly improved because of it.

Joined: Mar 2020
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Originally Posted by SUATTACK

2) Camera/character movement clunky
- I am trying to move the camera around to get the best look and it is all over the place. Completely removes me from the experience. I would LOVE to have the ability to have the camera follow the character as I move them with the wsad keys. Then when combat occurs and initiative starts, be able to swap to a top down view. Even a grid option would be cool.

Considering how hard Sven was pushing the semi-3rd camera view, I am shocked they don't have anything of that sort already. PoE2:Deadfire's "smart camera" was rather neat - while it didn't have WASDa controls, it can "follow the coursor" option and it centered on your party which made for a very enjoyable exploration control scheme.

D:OS2 had "keep mouse buttom pressed and characters will keep walking", no?

Last edited by Wormerine; 07/10/20 04:20 PM.
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I agree with a majority of this, but like Prima I do like some of the DOS integrations. The one thing I would LOVE to see is the top down grid view during combat and the follow behind camera! Also, to provide like a Chaotic background and have corresponding dialog choices for those would be fantastic.

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Originally Posted by King Qyote
I feel like I should chime in here and say that environmental effects absolutely should be a thing in 5e, and Larian has helped me to see that.

Ever since playing DivOS I started incorporating environmental effects into my 5e and other TTRPG games and they have greatly improved because of it.


environmental effects ARE a think in 5e. But you get a save against them, and not all spells create them, but lots of things clearly state they set things on fire. Right now, as implemented, too many things make them, and the lack of save against the effects makes them a bit out of place

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Originally Posted by King Qyote
I feel like I should chime in here and say that environmental effects absolutely should be a thing in 5e, and Larian has helped me to see that.

Ever since playing DivOS I started incorporating environmental effects into my 5e and other TTRPG games and they have greatly improved because of it.


Environmental effects are a thing in 5e. There are numerous spells and abilities that create effects within the environment, and those effects have rules for how to overcome them, and then of course there's the theater of the mind aspect in which the DM can rule "yeah your acid splash melts through the lock" or something like that.

The problem is that the environment effects are just frankenstein stitched over from DOS2 and it feels like I'm not even playing 5e anymore. It feels like I'm playing DOS2: The Baldur's Gate Mod.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by SUATTACK

2) Camera/character movement clunky
- I am trying to move the camera around to get the best look and it is all over the place. Completely removes me from the experience. I would LOVE to have the ability to have the camera follow the character as I move them with the wsad keys. Then when combat occurs and initiative starts, be able to swap to a top down view. Even a grid option would be cool.

Considering how hard Sven was pushing the semi-3rd camera view, I am shocked they don't have anything of that sort already. PoE2:Deadfire's "smart camera" was rather neat - while it didn't have WASDa controls, it can "follow the coursor" option and it centered on your party which made for a very enjoyable exploration control scheme.

D:OS2 had "keep mouse buttom pressed and characters will keep walking", no?


"Realtime" moving with the controller does feel better than longclicking the destination with the mouse IMO. But, yes, I'm sure they might consider shoulder cam, first person view, and not least, photo mode. Damn, but I'd love me a photo mode.

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Environmental effects and surfaces are ok. But they shouldn't rule the game like they did in DOS2.

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I am a 20 year D&D vet and have probably over 10,000 hours in 5e alone as a DM and a player.

I do not expect Baldur's Gate 3 to be a direct copy paste of the 5e ruleset, and would be shocked if it was. That said, I'm pretty happy with how things are currently. I disagree with OP, because combat does in fact feel like D&D to me. Where it doesn't feel like D&D, I feel it is improved, such as heavier emphasis on environment (much like Original Sin 2).

The action economy is pretty well done in my opinion. I fully expect, and am unsurprised to see that some abilities and spells are not direct translations: jumping to disengage being the one that sticks out most firmly in my head. This is a bonus action in Baldur's Gate 3 and a full action by default in 5e. It depowers rogue a fraction of a percent, and empowers all other classes a bit, but I don't believe that it actually changes very much overall. Especially when you consider that rogues get 2 bonus actions as they develop, which is massive.

Keep up the direction you're going in. But also add the toolset, DM client, and ability to host over 50 players at a time please.

Maybe include a real time with pause option for DMs. laugh

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Originally Posted by SUATTACK


1) Combat does not feel like D&D 5e and instead feels like DOS



This one is simple: it's because DOS combat actually feels like D&D

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I agree with this. I was disappointed when I had the rogue join my party and realized cunning action was reduced to dash.... I get they were afraid of making the battles feel too slow, and I respect how they tried to fix that, but it came at the cost of one of the classes core abilities, and frankly I don't see it as an improvement. I feel like Disengaging should be a more tactical desicion, not something everyone is free to do at any time.

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I think those are some fair criticisms although I agree with what people above have said as well. The thing is, it's funny how we're holding this to such a high standard because of all the years of waiting for a BG3. I mean, BG1&2 were considerably different from DnD because they were real-time and not turn-based, yet I don't remember people saying that was a problem. Now some people are saying this should also be RTwP to be like the original games and others are saying it's not enough like actual 5e. You can see what a nightmare it must be for Larian to balance all this out. The camera does really bother me though. When it's locked to your character, edge scrolling doesn't work. So you have to use the arrow keys to unlock the camera THEN you can use edge scrolling - but since you've had to use the arrow keys to begin with, you might as well carry on and not bother with edge scrolling. Doesn't really work.

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Originally Posted by golw
I do not expect Baldur's Gate 3 to be a direct copy paste of the 5e ruleset, and would be shocked if it was. That said, I'm pretty happy with how things are currently. I disagree with OP, because combat does in fact feel like D&D to me. Where it doesn't feel like D&D, I feel it is improved, such as heavier emphasis on environment (much like Original Sin 2).

The action economy is pretty well done in my opinion. I fully expect, and am unsurprised to see that some abilities and spells are not direct translations: jumping to disengage being the one that sticks out most firmly in my head. This is a bonus action in Baldur's Gate 3 and a full action by default in 5e. It depowers rogue a fraction of a percent, and empowers all other classes a bit, but I don't believe that it actually changes very much overall. Especially when you consider that rogues get 2 bonus actions as they develop, which is massive.


I definitely agree that it can't be a one to one translation of 5e, but right now it doesn't feel like I'm playing D&D or Baldur's Gate 3. It feels like I'm playing "Baldur's Gate: The Floor Is Lava Edition." They stripped down some of the 5e complexity and replaced it with just an over-the-top amount of ground effects. I hit a dude with acid globe and he jammed his bow into the acid and shot me to deal more damage? It's just too much.

And the Jump/Disengage is just too strong. It cheapens positioning, and saps even more value from other mobility based abilities. Misty Step? Meh. Waste of a spell slot when I can just bunny hop away.

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- Fighting style is available at Lv2, but yes, should be selected at Lv1 like PHB says
- Sneak Attack only applies to one of your attacks per round - once you get bonus action attacking, having it "just on" would rob the player of deciding when exactly to apply it

Last edited by endolex; 07/10/20 06:33 PM.
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Still in first impressions but it feels like D&D -- I failed every possible roll with the goblin priest and still had a satisfying ending, just like a DM would. Loving getting excited to see how the dice will come out. The writing is also good.

This is probably for another thread but it doesn't feel like the infinity engine at all. The chaining problems are still there. So much harder to get my characters to do what I want them to do than it was with IE or PoE flavored unity engine. Characters walking through fire because they are too dumb to jump over it . . . My character falling off a cliff I because I pulled the lever from the middle of the elevator and the chaining decided I wanted to jump off the cliff instead of staying on the platform.

Joined: Oct 2020
stranger
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This is what I feared when it was announced Larian was making it. Turn based instead of RTWP I can live with. Bastardization of 5E rules isn't fun though.

Joined: Oct 2020
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Agree with the fact that the dialogues we have seen so far are very tasty indeed. VERY tasty,

A closer rendition of 5e and not DOS would make the game more fun and tactical. You have the classes and their unique skill sets to work with in exploration, social encounters and battle.

If I would describe the game as a dish, it would be a dish that at heart seems to have well crafted flavors that could work together - but it is unfortunately very overpowered by the taste of surfaces.


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