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Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
If my selected character simply looks in a different direction the entire team 8 time out of 10 decide to,

1) Run round in circles
2) Climb a ladder
3) Jump off or up something
4) set off a trap I am trying to disarm
5) Wiggle about looking all over the joint

On occasion one character will stop dead somewhere because,

1) There is fire that requires a slight detour
2) Astarion sees a puddle
3) two people try and climb a ladder at the same time
4) They get stuck in dialouge with an NPC for some reason
5) They are required to jump but cannot figure out the path

This having the secondary consequence of either running your entire team back to the "walt disney" (frozen solid) character or pissing about with the chanining shite in the hope it works and doesn't send everyone auto-pathing to each other, getting stuck again......pfft

When chaining/unchaining or reordering the team,

1) It will refuse to move the 1st position character unless you totally unchain and rechain but sometime this requires many attempts
2) Moving a character from the 3rd position to first is practically impossible without doing the chain dance.
so on and so forth.

I have read hundreds experiencing these ^^^^^ issues on these forums, discord and reddit, HUNDREDS. So at some point "opinion" ceases being relevant and the word "objective" can be used. As a statement of fact this system and the auto-pathing is abysmal.

I don't understand how a very select few are having no issues when the vast majority of players are reporting the exact same issues?

This. This right here. All of it. 100%. Especially the slight turn crap. I slightly turn and everyone repositions. Boom! Trap spring or clicking on accident on one of the party members or someone decides to climb down a cliff, or JUMP INTO LAVA AT GRYMFORGE. Bye bye SH. You stupidly jumped into lava because I turned around.

Sounds like a pathing issue of follower AI, rather than UI issues. No matter how you interact with UX what kind of UX design it would have, if followers walk into dangerous areas on their own through following, well... Pathing issue. I'd rather fix that, than having to move four characters individually to circumvent it, no matter how intuitive or efficient it may be.

That's not really the issue, the main issue when this happens is that your followers position is not fixed on a position, but a relative position to the character you have selected. So if you turn around, all others will position themselves relative to the new position. If every party member got a fixed position when moving, turning around would not cause an issue. It would also solve the climbing issues, as instead of trying to find a relative position to your selected character, it will simply move to it's designated coordinates. If every party member moved independently to a position, instead of "stay 2 feet behind and to the right of chain-leader", all the odd quirks would disappear.

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Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Black_Elk
It definitely makes me curious about the Stadia experience...

I use Stadia over a browser. No controller, just my mouse.

The chaining is smooth as butter for me.
It doesn't cost a series of clicks or anything. I swipe right, and I'm on the character I selected. I swipe left, and that character is chained back in and still selected.

I'm not clicking and unclicking and reclicking, nothing like that.

*

I remember having some issues in earlier patches when I was still playing over Steam. (I bought the game twice, once on Steam and once on Stadia.) Back then I had a delay, as if the mouse didn't want to click onto the picture. It wouldn't "grab" it easily, if you know what I mean, and that was frustrating.

But I noticed those issues got smoother as patches released, and now it's like second nature for me on Stadia over my browser. It grabs it every time and the slide is as smooth and simple as can be.

*

And I suspect that it will continue to get more and more smooth as it's optimized. Patch after patch, hotfix after hotfix, all the way until full release.

I honestly considered signing up for Stadia just to see if it was any better. I certainly purchased BG1 enough times, probably like half a dozen, whether from scratched or lost discs or the beamdog redux, so I'm not a stranger to recklessly blowing gold on Baldur's Gate games lol. I was also interested in how this game might play with a UI geared for a controller, but then I read that the game doesn't fully support controller on Stadia either so that lost my interest. I also have a sort of fraught attitude towards Google too, as I've worked for them on occasion, and they now rule the place where I grew up like a medieval fiefdom or something on the price out. I've already given Valve my loot, and so I expect Larian to make this thing hum on Steam. Ideally if they're going to make a game like this I'd just as soon plug in an X box controller and use thumbsticks. It's definitely kind of a betrayal of where I began in this thread though, because even though I can acquiesce to that direction for the game, I still find it pretty disappointing. I really wanted a BG3 more in the spirit of BG1, right down to the command and control, but somehow I don't think I'll be getting that here. Alas.

Also just as a passing aside, there are definitely a lot of personalities on these boards. Some regulars lean one way or another and have different hot buttons I've found. Over time you just sort of get used to the people kicking about and their various perspectives on the big issues du jour. I mean you get a sense of what their interests are, where they're coming at it from, and what sort of archetypal player group they probably represent. I think most opinions here are pretty valid. While it may appear that some voices monopolize the conversation, it's really just that they are still contributing pretty actively on a recurring basis, so I try to credit the energy required for just sticking around this long hehe. People do stop through make a post and dip, maybe never get heard from again, but when I see the same voices return to keep it going week in and week out that's kind of a positive for continuity in the conversation in a way. Sometimes they have better days, sometimes off ones. It's hard to even remember half the feedback or who it was given by anymore, but I take note when somebody's launched a big feedback thread or delved into an interesting conversation, or chained around a bunch of the threads for a few weeks.

Whenever I sense a breakdown in concord, I tend to blame Larian for not really curating their own boards, or taking on the EA experience and participation a bit more actively via engagement. Who Larian is and what plans they have in the offing, what they think about the game's development so far and what feedback they're after, it's all like a big perpetual mystery here. It has a way of setting up weird arguments by proxy either in their defense or contra, and really sort of galvanizing the forums denizens against themselves pointlessly. I find it frustrating, cause it's like they've just absconded and left us to mull about without much direction. When things get dicey here, I just try to recall that everyone who has made the effort to sign up and post here probably cares somewhere deep down in their heart, because these boards are definitely pretty unwieldy hehe.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 22/11/21 11:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
It definitely makes me curious about the Stadia experience and whether that is indeed different.


+1

Maybe the forum could attempt to dig deeper into the experiences of those who use Stadia compared to the rest of us to see if indeed there is a difference.

Until you mentioned this I had a hard time understanding just how JandK could think this movement system was good when it seems so obviously flawed. My experience is like yours, the best way I can describe the chain is that it feels "sticky" or slack when it should be tight and responsive (which is how JandK tends to describe it). I also find it much less precise and less responsive compared to how it worked in DOS II where I found it curious but not unworkable.

Last edited by Ranxerox; 22/11/21 11:57 AM.
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Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I know. It is like talking to a wall.

No. It's more like this:

American's Got Talent. Contestant gets up in front of the judges and sings like a dying harpy. Judges say, "Stop. Sorry. You're bad."

Contestant yells at the judges saying they're wrong and they think they're awesome and they don't need more vocal training, and what do the judges know anyway.

If all the judges are telling someone they are bad, wouldn't that kinda mean that they're bad?

Now, that said, your opinion is that the movement mechanics are not bad. Fine. I get it. But if lots and lots of people are frustrated with it, and some even saying it's totally ruining the game for them, and it's SO bad that they want Larian to fix it and revamp it before they do anything else, and they're not alone, shouldn't Larian take that feedback seriously and do something like overhaul their movement mechanics?

We're talking die hard fans here. We're not talking people just out here complaining and trolling just for the sake of trolling. We genuinely want the game to be better. Just because you don't have a problem with the system doesn't mean that they shouldn't fix it. A lot of other people are struggling with it. So why fight us on it?

Go take a break please. You sound agitated.

I'm sorry. You're right. I am agitated, and I do need a break. When someone says, "Sigh. Cognitively, it's like talking to a wall. Seriously.". That is insulting, and it is hard to not be agitated in return.

But I will walk away now. I think I'm done anyway with arguing with people out here about this game. I obviously care a little too much about it. At the end of the day, it's just a game. Sometimes I wonder why I even like it so much. Is it really that great?

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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
It definitely makes me curious about the Stadia experience and whether that is indeed different.
Well, it surely is: it's worse, and not even by a narrow margin.
Low image quality, artifact compression, input lag, an arbitrary cap to resolution and framerate that may not match what a competent system is capable of.

Frankly there's absolutely no reason to even consider it as an option unless your machine simply struggles A LOT to keep up with the game.
You could somewhat made a half-assed argument about the possibility of "using it in some different place than your home/usual gaming spot", but then again what's a realistic scenario where someone would sit down to play a big-ass game like BG3 for extended periods of time, with low latency bandwidth readily available (that means a cabled connection) and NO computer at hand? Not impossible, but a fringe case for sure.

Originally Posted by Ranxerox
Until you mentioned this I had a hard time understanding just how JandK could think this movement system was good when it seems so obviously flawed.
Funny thing, the aforementioned issues with Stadia are going to make this chain system even more flawed there. There's simply no realistic scenario where adding bad compression, bad image quality and more input lag to an already fairly clumsy control scheme is going to make it feel "completely fine", unless you are willing to lower your standards under sea level and play "make believe" to delude yourself into the idea you are having an optimal experience.

Last edited by Tuco; 22/11/21 01:28 PM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Whenever I sense a breakdown in concord, I tend to blame Larian for not really curating their own boards, or taking on the EA experience and participation a bit more actively via engagement. Who Larian is and what plans they have in the offing, what they think about the game's development so far and what feedback they're after, it's all like a big perpetual mystery here. It has a way of setting up weird arguments by proxy either in their defense or contra, and really sort of galvanizing the forums denizens against themselves pointlessly. I find it frustrating, cause it's like they've just absconded and left us to mull about without much direction. When things get dicey here, I just try to recall that everyone who has made the effort to sign up and post here probably cares somewhere deep down in their heart, because these boards are definitely pretty unwieldy hehe.

+1

It was the worst kept secret that Larian announcing a BG game would attract a high level of interest and scrutiny (Siege of Dragonspear anyone?). To that effect, Larian's engagement has so far been very poor, and personnally, I won't participate in any of its future EAs.

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I think it's fair to say at this point that it is unrealistic to expect Larian to change their toilet chain system. They have not once addressed the feedback so I can only assume they have noticed it and chosen to ignore it; whether because they are adamant it's fantastic, or whether it's because of multiplayer or because there are limitations in their engine...I don't know. Anyway, I can only hazard a guess, from my own ignorance of software development, that rewriting the party control system is something they do not want to sink resources into.

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Yeah, I pretty much gave up on any hope to see it improved a longtime ago.
I’m fairly sure Larian is aware of how largely unpopular the system is at this point, but I’m also fairly sure they are once again adamant that the users must be wrong and it's their fault for not appreciating the value of this mechanic. Or something of that sort.
Basically the same attitude they tend to have about ANY of their unpopular or controversial design decisions. Except maybe admitting the problem at a later date as they did with the now infamous DOS 2 armor system.

But just because I don't think it will ever be fixed, it doesn’t mean that I’m willing to concede on some nonsensical attempt to argue that is “completely fine”, because it really isn’t.

Last edited by Tuco; 23/11/21 11:26 AM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Originally Posted by The Composer
Sounds like a pathing issue of follower AI, rather than UI issues. No matter how you interact with UX what kind of UX design it would have, if followers walk into dangerous areas on their own through following, well... Pathing issue. I'd rather fix that, than having to move four characters individually to circumvent it, no matter how intuitive or efficient it may be.
It is not one or the other. Yes, it is a pathing issue, but the lack of proper party control system makes it worse. For example, as of current patch, I've had companions climb up and down a ladder repeatedly, just because the the character I am controlling has climbed the ladder up and is now standing next to it. Sure, you can try to fix pathfinding, but you could also give the player full party control, so that I could click "hold/stop" on all characters in such a situation. This would also help with another issue that I have observed, when sometimes a companion would run around the character I am controlling, as if the pathfinding couldn't find a place to stop. Quite annoying when you try to buff your party.

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There are a few things that can be improved:

1. Add formations. Otherwise it becomes very tricky in moving the whole group through a field where it is full with traps, for example. Currently you have to micromanage every party member, which can be annoying and time consuming

2. Once the fight is over, the turn mode gets shut down and the characters move randomly. It will be best if they allow the player themselves to shut down the turn based mode (that way tending for fallen comrades, eliminating other potential dangers). It might be also useful to keep your characters at their original positions at least until you click something else.

Last edited by Scales & Fangs; 23/11/21 02:59 PM.
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Originally Posted by Scales & Fangs
There are a few things that can be improved:

1. Add formations. Otherwise it becomes very tricky in moving the whole group through a field where it is full with traps, for example. Currently you have to micromanage every party member, which can be annoying and time consuming

2. Once the fight is over, the turn mode gets shut down and the characters move randomly. It will be best if they allow the player themselves to shut down the turn based mode (that way tending for fallen comrades, eliminating other potential dangers). It might be also useful to keep your characters at their original positions at least until you click something else.

Why would it be easier to move your character in a field full of traps with formations ?

You'll still have to manage them one by one if they're running in line from their previous position to the next.
On top of that, with such a system formations will always be broken as soon as the selected character move so I don't see the point of formations with this chain.

But I have to admit that I don't remember how it worked in DoS.

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Technically it is a few issues that feed off each other.

First issue - Pathing combined with a default position to the selected character. This means if the main character cannot path for some reason and does the wiggle dance at a ladder or something all the companions will try to get to that default position and go nuts jumping/climbing about or re-pathing across the entire bloody map through combat zones. This is even worse when there is a hazard/ladder in the way. You will, as the main character, jump over said hazard and continue to your destination. Meanwhile each companion will try and calculate the best (most retarded) way of avoiding said hazard at the time try and get to your location even if it means one jumps over the hazard but sets on fire anyway, one goes walt disney and looks into the distance and the last one decides to walk 300 miles in a random direction.

At this point you are required to chain and unchain.....You then have to click another character to drag, but the second you do all the other fucking characters will try to path to that guy including from the place you already arrived at. But bacause the chaining is so mechanically broken it may take take a few attempts. At this point you will be in combat with one character, stood in fire with another......

P.S - Don't feed the trolls.

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All I know is Tav jumped off the Nautiloid last night. First jump of the game, and she jumped off instead of landing on the other side. It was like she was trying to jump on the dragon's back.

The controls are bad.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
All I know is Tav jumped off the Nautiloid last night. First jump of the game, and she jumped off instead of landing on the other side. It was like she was trying to jump on the dragon's back.

The controls are bad.

Have you ever thought about streaming this on Youtube to showcase how bad it is?

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Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
Technically it is a few issues that feed off each other.

First issue - Pathing combined with a default position to the selected character. This means if the main character cannot path for some reason and does the wiggle dance at a ladder or something all the companions will try to get to that default position and go nuts jumping/climbing about or re-pathing across the entire bloody map through combat zones. This is even worse when there is a hazard/ladder in the way. You will, as the main character, jump over said hazard and continue to your destination. Meanwhile each companion will try and calculate the best (most retarded) way of avoiding said hazard at the time try and get to your location even if it means one jumps over the hazard but sets on fire anyway, one goes walt disney and looks into the distance and the last one decides to walk 300 miles in a random direction.

At this point you are required to chain and unchain.....You then have to click another character to drag, but the second you do all the other fucking characters will try to path to that guy including from the place you already arrived at. But bacause the chaining is so mechanically broken it may take take a few attempts. At this point you will be in combat with one character, stood in fire with another......

P.S - Don't feed the trolls.


But... this is all very "intuitive". Right?


Anyway, just as Tuco said I've also given up any hope of Larian changing the toilet chain system.
In fact at this point, considering the non existent community interaction, I'm fairly sure that Larian never wanted our feedback in the first place. What they truly wanted was our telemetry. They should just have released the game as open beta instead of charging money for it.

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Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by GM4Him
All I know is Tav jumped off the Nautiloid last night. First jump of the game, and she jumped off instead of landing on the other side. It was like she was trying to jump on the dragon's back.

The controls are bad.

Have you ever thought about streaming this on Youtube to showcase how bad it is?

Lol. Yeah sure. I'll just start recording all my playthroughs just for the purpose of proving that the movement mechanics need fixing.

Or... Larian could simply believe that it needs fixing because there are LOTS of people providing them feedback about it.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by GM4Him
All I know is Tav jumped off the Nautiloid last night. First jump of the game, and she jumped off instead of landing on the other side. It was like she was trying to jump on the dragon's back.

The controls are bad.

Have you ever thought about streaming this on Youtube to showcase how bad it is?

Lol. Yeah sure. I'll just start recording all my playthroughs just for the purpose of proving that the movement mechanics need fixing.

Or... Larian could simply believe that it needs fixing because there are LOTS of people providing them feedback about it.

I'd be really interested in seeing a demonstration of what the problem is. Reading about it is one thing, but seeing it first hand is another. I mean, you're saying your character is jumping off the side of the ship?

I think it would be informative to compare the issues you have in stream to someone else's stream to see where the problem is coming from. I can't imagine it would be anything other than helpful.

Last edited by JandK; 23/11/21 08:07 PM.
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😴... Ain't nobody got time for that. My role in EA is to play the game and offer suggestions, not film my gameplay to prove anything to anyone.

All I'm suggesting is that they need some better move mechanics. Play some other, similar games and see how much easier the movement mechanics are.

Solasta. One click. Everyone sneaks. One click, everyone is in group mode. One click. One character selected to move. One click. Auto jump to destination selected. Camera can move up or down vertically. Characters don't just run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Pathfinder. Pretty much the same.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Solasta. One click. Everyone sneaks. One click, everyone is in group mode. One click. One character selected to move. One click. Auto jump to destination selected. Camera can move up or down vertically.

All of these are points of feedback that I can personally confirm having been forwarded, as I too have personally forwarded it.

With an addition to the party chain, based on a discussion with Tuco a long time ago. Various notes on why it's inefficient and a suggestion of my own, which I believe is the least 'expensive' solution to meet somewhere in the middle. The gist was being able to select multiple character portraits in the current UI with for example a keybind (control + left click for example) and they'd automatically split into their own subgroup and move together that way. And a button for quick de-link and re-link everyone.

While the current system works for me, I think it'd benefit from seeing a couple of changes and alterations to make it more intuitive for power-players (how I refer to minmaxers and positioners, the players who often rearrange parties to position them around individually. It's actually more common for most players to keep the party linked, thus it never becomes an issue for them. Some just separates one character to be combat initiator and the remaining group of 3 stays linked. Actually separating all four party members and positioning them individually in preparation before combat is very rare across the board. However, power-players also tend to be dedicated enough to dedicate spare time to online forums and other communication channels for a particular game. Most players of any game don't do that. That's easy to forget for you and me ^^)

Edit/appendix: However I personally believe those non-powerplayers would likely be indifferent to a couple of changes and improvements to UX and party management / movement, hence while it doesn't bother me I still vouch for and do what I can to at least make sure those ideas and suggestions make their way to the design teams.

Last edited by The Composer; 23/11/21 10:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by The Composer
a button for quick de-link and re-link everyone.
We allready have this ...
And its working perfectly (almost) my only wish would be for this button to respect order of characters i allready have in my party instead forcing its own. -_-

When i have Tav on first position and i have her Tagged ... its bcs i WANT her on first position ... not put her on second position, and put Lae'zel on her place. :-/


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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