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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by The Composer
a button for quick de-link and re-link everyone.
We allready have this ...

I'm refering to past-tense events.

Originally Posted by The Composer
[...] a long time ago

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by The Composer
a button for quick de-link and re-link everyone.
We allready have this ...
And its working perfectly (almost) my only wish would be for this button to respect order of characters i allready have in my party instead forcing its own. -_-

When i have Tav on first position and i have her Tagged ... its bcs i WANT her on first position ... not put her on second position, and put Lae'zel on her place. :-/

Do we have a button or a hotkey ? This is really not the same.
If there's a button, please tell me where smile

Last edited by Maximuuus; 23/11/21 10:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by The Composer
It's actually more common for most players to keep the party linked, thus it never becomes an issue for them. Some just separates one character to be combat initiator and the remaining group of 3 stays linked. Actually separating all four party members and positioning them individually in preparation before combat is very rare across the board.
This completely matches my expectations but I'm curious; where does this data come from? Did Larian share party linkage metrics from BG3 somewhere? Or just with you? Or is this from (public or otherwise) DOS1&2 data?

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Originally Posted by The Composer
I'm refering to past-tense events.
Okey ... even tho you would not be first one who missed that, if that would be the case ... but okey, my misstake ...
Lets say i was providing feedback for what we have now then. laugh

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Do we have a button or a hotkey ? This is really not the same.
If there's a button, please tell me where smile
In that case no, its synonyms in my language. smile

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 23/11/21 10:26 PM.

Short coment on my English. smile

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Originally Posted by The Composer
It's actually more common for most players to keep the party linked, thus it never becomes an issue for them. Some just separates one character to be combat initiator and the remaining group of 3 stays linked. Actually separating all four party members and positioning them individually in preparation before combat is very rare across the board.

Well, I don't know where this data comes from, but I'd be incline to find the notion utterly unsurprising. Both because micro-managing has never been the casual user's cup of tea AND especially because the game currently goes out of its way to make any attempt at it something excruciatingly cumbersome to go through.
While playing Pillars of Eternity or Wrath of the Righteous I can reposition six characters in six specific spots in a matter of seconds, literally with two clicks for each one (select and move), a fraction of the time it would take me to pull the most basic party maneuver in DOS 2 or BG3. And that's with a party of four and assuming that I'd have to unchain, move and regroup a single character in the process.

That's precisely where subjectivity goes out of the window: I'm sure there are even masochists who enjoy being repeatedly stabbed in their chest, but it's hard to make a reasonable case about how that's great for your health.

Last edited by Tuco; 23/11/21 10:43 PM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Well, while I agree that throughout most of the surface I do not unlink my group, the Underdark and Grymforge have several painful areas that require it. Sneaking past the arcane turrets, getting to the forge, the traps on the wall, if you want to do any scouting or sneaking anywhere, suddenly the clumsy chain system becomes a very big pain point as does pathing.

Let's not forget the accursed statues in the secret tunnels. Each and every person has to be sneaking at all times or everybody dies.

Last edited by GM4Him; 23/11/21 11:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Well, I don't know where this data comes from, but I'd be incline to find the notion utterly unsurprising. Both because micro-managing has never been the casual user's cup of tea AND especially because the game currently goes out of its way to make any attempt at it something excruciatingly cumbersome to go through.
While playing Pillars of Eternity or Wrath of the Righteous I can reposition six characters in six specific spots in a matter of seconds, literally with two clicks for each one (select and move), a fraction of the time it would take me to pull the most basic party maneuver in DOS 2 or BG3. And that's with a party of four and assuming that I'd have to unchain, move and regroup a single character in the process.

Oh I don't disagree personally. While I've mentioned to you before that I'm fine with how it is, that doesn't mean I don't think it could be better. I've explained it before, but foremost the point is to illustrate how it may look from development point of view. After all, it's Larian you and I and a bunch of others would want to convince/inspire into change, right? Doesn't really matter if we argue enough with any one in particular on the forums to have them change their mind or realize something could be better.

So if you have any particular issue that is a non-issue or minor thing for the masses, a "could be better" for the intermediate players and "oh god please help" for the minority of power-players, then you have a case of an issue where it's a bunch of work for an impact on the minority. This feedback has to be sold, in such a way that it has as good of a chance as possible to be considered. There's another thread going on about Origins right now, where someone have talked about and argued over why asking for a complete rewrite of origins and the tadpole is impossible to achieve at this point. A complete change and overhaul of the entire UX design may potentially be out of the question too (I don't know this) but I'd argue any improvements and changes would be indifferent or be positively received by the masses and intermediate players, and good for for example you. That's why proposing tangible, actual ideas to improve the existing system seems a lot more plausible to me to achieve. Such as being able to select multiple characters out of the group at one time and automate the process of them being separated from the party link because of instructing the game with a right click to move the selected characters. (Because if you try to move with only a portion of selected party members, it's fair to assume the player means to only move them). Or stealthing all selected characters if using stealth, at the same time. It doesn't necessarily require a full scrapping and overhaul, but rather a small selection of changes and additions to achieve the same thing. Every other argument I've seen has been about pathing, rather than UI interaction to control party members. There is an overlap of the two interacting, of course, but it's important to separate them for the sake of speaking "developer language".

We want the same thing. We don't need to be over-dramatic about it. It only dilutes the point and makes it more difficult to achieve what I'd presume is the ideal goal: Inspire change through feedback. Fighting amongst one another, or getting bombastic, or unrealistic makes that way more difficult.

Last edited by The Composer; 24/11/21 12:14 AM.
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Carefully pre-positioning the whole party before combat is just one thing. The dirty chain system (only one character selected + all the group follows), together with several other bad choices in the movement system, and in various other systems for that matter, create issues even for the lay players.

On occasions, you'll talk to a non-hostile creature, and the conversation cutscene will lead straight into a fight. I have experienced the following problems.

  • Enemies win initiative. They're melee enemies. Also, Gale happens to find himself at the front of my team, right in melee range ... WTF ?
  • My dual-wielding Fighter wins initiative ... and finds herself in the back. If I'm a bit unlucky, she can't even get to the enemies she is supposed to hack, because ranged characters are in the way. (Yes, this problem is also a consequence of BG3 characters not being to move through allies, contrary to 5E rules. The bad party movement system combines with other bad movement systems to create bad results.) I could spend a Bonus Action to Jump, but that means I'm effectively wasting an attack.

I feel one doesn't need to be a dedicated optimiser to think that squishy and ranged characters should stay in the back and that tanky melee warriors should stand in the frontline. This would be guaranteed if the party could walk in formation.

(Another closely-related issue is that only the character that was selected when I initiated a conversation can talk during the conversation. So even if I have a satisfying formation, I need to select my charismatic Sorcerer and bring him to the front if I want to have better odds, should some Charisma check be involved.)


Like many others above, I strongly doubt that Larian is going to change much about the party controls. And I certainly doubt that a selection-box method will ever be implemented, it's too big of a change. But I hope we can still obtain the following features.

  • Select several characters and, tadaa!, we have a group, that we can move around. No need to ungroup anyone. Basically ditch the concept of "group" and replace it by "selection".
  • Perform this multiple-characters selection with Ctrl + left click on portrait, or Ctrl + portrait number.
  • Have the selected characters walk in formation. No accordion effect when movement starts and stops. No madness around ladders.
  • When all my party is selected, and I click on an elevator, have all the party take the elevator. Use logic/player inputs for movement, not some dubious physics.
  • Have characters not gather/converge so long as I'm not asking them to move. In particular : they should not move back together automatically after a fight ends.
  • Issue commands to all the selected characters. The top-needed command is Stealth. It would also be great to have Stop Moving.
  • Decouple summons from their summoners.



While I don't have my hopes too high, and I don't want to give anyone false hopes, I feel compelled to note the following two improvements that have been implemented since the launch of EA.

  • Patch 3 added the follow-on-jump : all the chained character follow a character that jumps. This turned a system that was very bad to one that is still very bad but slightly less so.
  • Patch 5 added the group all/ungroup all function. Although in a very stealthy, undocumented fashion (which we can interpret in several ways). Again, a baby step, but at least it's in the right direction.

I'm sure Larian knows that many players hate the current party movement system. I wouldn't be surprised if some devs agree that it is a poor one. The question is whether Larian will do something about it.


Hoping we'll be able to create great assumptions-free Custom Characters and be given great roleplay options.
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I just keep reading in this thread how nothing works, as in companions keep stumbling into lava or jumping off cliffs or how someone's character uncontrollably jumps off the side of the Nautiloid. It sounds horrendous and unplayable.

The only thing is, none of that is happening in my game. None of it. I'm having no trouble at all. None, zero, zilch, and I mean that with complete sincerity.

I've played an enormous number of hours. I've watched other people playing more times than I can reasonably count.

I'm not seeing this stuff. I'm not seeing characters uncontrollably jumping off the Nautiloid.

It's like if someone started complaining to God about legs and how they don't work because they keep falling down and randomly jumping off rooftops, and I'm over here thinking, what? That's not happening with my legs? What am I missing? I see people walking around fine all day long.

So. I say the way it is now is working fine for me. I chain and I unchain all the time. I put my characters in stealth mode and sneak them around. I climb ladders, I disable the traps all the way down to Auntie Ethel, and my companions don't set the traps off on accident.

So again--in my opinion--this system is working fine, and I'm really worried about Larian changing it because it works so well for me, and because I'm used to it, and because substantial changes always seem to come with unforeseen problems.

*

Now, when I hear about a specific suggestion (outside of "the sky is falling" language), then that's easier to process. For example, someone says, "Hey, it'd be nice to make all the characters go into sneak at the same time..."

Then I can understand where they're coming from.

Personally, I don't care for that suggestion, mostly because it's entirely irrelevant to me. In my opinion, it doesn't take any time to put the characters in stealth. It just doesn't feel like that big of a deal.

*

When someone mentions that they play some other game called Widget, and in Widget they can position their character is 8.3 gigaseconds, then my only thought is that I don't care.

I'm not playing Widget, and I'm not in a race. I'm thinking carefully about my characters' positioning, and I'm moving them easily without any issues. Why would I care about how fast someone else moves characters in another game?

I don't want a system I'm comfortable with changed, and certainly not under the guise of speed running.

That's my feedback to Larian. I like the system. It works well.

*

And I'm not making it up that it works well for me. Why would I make that up?

*

Originally Posted by GM4Him
😴... Ain't nobody got time for that.

That's a shame because I'd love to see what you're talking about. And I feel like, given the investment in time on this forum already, that it would potentially save time in the long run.

Last edited by JandK; 24/11/21 01:54 AM.
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If they a
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Scales & Fangs
There are a few things that can be improved:

1. Add formations. Otherwise it becomes very tricky in moving the whole group through a field where it is full with traps, for example. Currently you have to micromanage every party member, which can be annoying and time consuming

2. Once the fight is over, the turn mode gets shut down and the characters move randomly. It will be best if they allow the player themselves to shut down the turn based mode (that way tending for fallen comrades, eliminating other potential dangers). It might be also useful to keep your characters at their original positions at least until you click something else.

Why would it be easier to move your character in a field full of traps with formations ?

You'll still have to manage them one by one if they're running in line from their previous position to the next.
On top of that, with such a system formations will always be broken as soon as the selected character move so I don't see the point of formations with this chain.

But I have to admit that I don't remember how it worked in DoS.

If they are in a straight line and keep the formation, you know that the second and third will not pass an area that the first one has not passed.

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Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
If my selected character simply looks in a different direction the entire team 8 time out of 10 decide to,

1) Run round in circles
2) Climb a ladder
3) Jump off or up something
4) set off a trap I am trying to disarm
5) Wiggle about looking all over the joint

On occasion one character will stop dead somewhere because,

1) There is fire that requires a slight detour
2) Astarion sees a puddle
3) two people try and climb a ladder at the same time
4) They get stuck in dialouge with an NPC for some reason
5) They are required to jump but cannot figure out the path

This having the secondary consequence of either running your entire team back to the "walt disney" (frozen solid) character or pissing about with the chanining shite in the hope it works and doesn't send everyone auto-pathing to each other, getting stuck again......pfft

When chaining/unchaining or reordering the team,

1) It will refuse to move the 1st position character unless you totally unchain and rechain but sometime this requires many attempts
2) Moving a character from the 3rd position to first is practically impossible without doing the chain dance.
so on and so forth.

I have read hundreds experiencing these ^^^^^ issues on these forums, discord and reddit, HUNDREDS. So at some point "opinion" ceases being relevant and the word "objective" can be used. As a statement of fact this system and the auto-pathing is abysmal.

I don't understand how a very select few are having no issues when the vast majority of players are reporting the exact same issues?



I missed this post earlier. Had to quote it because it sums things up pretty nicley.
+1

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Originally Posted by Peranor
Originally Posted by Soul-Scar
If my selected character simply looks in a different direction the entire team 8 time out of 10 decide to,

1) Run round in circles
2) Climb a ladder
3) Jump off or up something
4) set off a trap I am trying to disarm
5) Wiggle about looking all over the joint

On occasion one character will stop dead somewhere because,

1) There is fire that requires a slight detour
2) Astarion sees a puddle
3) two people try and climb a ladder at the same time
4) They get stuck in dialouge with an NPC for some reason
5) They are required to jump but cannot figure out the path

This having the secondary consequence of either running your entire team back to the "walt disney" (frozen solid) character or pissing about with the chanining shite in the hope it works and doesn't send everyone auto-pathing to each other, getting stuck again......pfft

When chaining/unchaining or reordering the team,

1) It will refuse to move the 1st position character unless you totally unchain and rechain but sometime this requires many attempts
2) Moving a character from the 3rd position to first is practically impossible without doing the chain dance.
so on and so forth.

I have read hundreds experiencing these ^^^^^ issues on these forums, discord and reddit, HUNDREDS. So at some point "opinion" ceases being relevant and the word "objective" can be used. As a statement of fact this system and the auto-pathing is abysmal.

I don't understand how a very select few are having no issues when the vast majority of players are reporting the exact same issues?



I missed this post earlier. Had to quote it because it sums things up pretty nicley.
+1

Also +1

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DOS II had formations, anyone know why they are absent in BG3?

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
All I know is Tav jumped off the Nautiloid last night. First jump of the game, and she jumped off instead of landing on the other side. It was like she was trying to jump on the dragon's back.
Is it reproducible?
Do you use mods?

I presume you already know that, but in case you don't, even if you "uninstall" mods "completely", sometimes they leave files in certain folders, and game starts to freak out because of that.
If you are using mods, you are not testing the game, full stop.

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No mods. Game just freaked. Same with SH when I turned my MC to face another direction. She decided to jump in the lava at Grymforge.

No. Probably can't reproduce.

But stuff like that happens a lot.

Secret tunnels. Jumping up on cliff to scale up. Sazza can't make the jumps. She runs around to meet me at the top. Quick! Unchain! Pshew. She's safe.

Nope. She's tied to my main and I can't untie her. She continues up the trail. No Sazza!

Flash fried by statue. One hit. Sazza's gone. Reload.

Halsin's with me in bear form. He's tied to my main. Ah crap. Lots of gobbos around. Let's sneak. F1. C. F2. C. F3. C. F4. C. Crap. No hotkey for Halsin. Click on Halsin's pic. C. Ah. Everyone's sneaking.

Sneak past goblins. Great. Let's attack. Initiate combat. Where's Halsin?

Oh, he's a bear so he's kinda big so you have to be careful not to maneuver around areas he can get stuck on. He's all the way back where we first started sneaking, and wait! Crap! He secretly initiated combat with a goblin patrolling around because he got stuck in the open in the patrol's route. Now I've got double the enemies to kill. Thanks Halsin!

And oh crap! When's the last time I saved because auto-save doesn't save very often. Sigh! Guess I'll try to make this work and hope I can kill all these enemies at once.

Last edited by GM4Him; 25/11/21 04:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Halsin's with me in bear form. He's tied to my main. Ah crap. Lots of gobbos around. Let's sneak. F1. C. F2. C. F3. C. F4. C. Crap. No hotkey for Halsin. Click on Halsin's pic. C. Ah. Everyone's sneaking.

Sneak past goblins. Great. Let's attack. Initiate combat. Where's Halsin?

Oh, he's a bear so he's kinda big so you have to be careful not to maneuver around areas he can get stuck on. He's all the way back where we first started sneaking, and wait! Crap! He secretly initiated combat with a goblin patrolling around because he got stuck in the open in the patrol's route. Now I've got double the enemies to kill. Thanks Halsin!

And oh crap! When's the last time I saved because auto-save doesn't save very often. Sigh! Guess I'll try to make this work and hope I can kill all these enemies at once.
That sucks ...
But i fail to see how is that game or mechanic fault ... i mean no matter what will you change you will allways be able to ignore some party member and loose him. :-/

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 25/11/21 07:21 AM.

Short coment on my English. smile

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2 possible fixes to solve some issues with the system :

- Followers don't move when the selected character interract with something you cannot talk with (containers, levers, traps,...)

This is probably one of the biggest cause of unecessary moves. In exemple when you're looting dead bodies in a room, the followers are moving all arround the selected character.
At best it may just look a bit silly. At worst, they can end in a surface or move too close to the next group of ennemy.

- "White circle" for everyone and positions locked until you click somewhere else.

At the moment when you click on the ground there is only one white circle : the position of the selected character.
The characters often become crazy when you click another portrait (climb up/down, everyone stop or walk back,...) and it looks silly when they absolutely come closer to their leader before joining the position we defined (especially when the leader is farther than them).

The game could show us the position of every character (in the "standard formation") and lock these positions until you click another location on the map.
"Locked" = even if you select another portrait, characters are still moving to the position defined by the 4 circles + the followers are moving to their circle rather than to the leader.

As a result players would know where everyone is moving exactly it and would solve a lot of unexpected or unnapropriate movements.
More accurate + smoother and more coherent movements.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 25/11/21 08:08 AM.
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I like the idea with circles.
But I was also wondering how would work implementing minimal distance for components to react ...
I mean ... if we would move around in (lets say) 2m circle they would just standing there minding their own business ... and start following us once we get futher away.

They could either move slightly behind us ... or get 2ces speedbuff to reach us.

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 25/11/21 08:03 AM.

Short coment on my English. smile

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I like the idea with circles.
But I was also wondering how would work implementing minimal distance for components to react ...
I mean ... if we would move around in (lets say) 2m circle they would just standing there minding their own business ... and start following us once we get futher away.

They could either move slightly behind us ... or get 2ces speedbuff to reach us.

There's definitely something at the moment.
I just tried a bit and they're not ALWAYS moving... or at least not ll of them are everytime you're moving a bit. And sometimes they get back in "formation", but sometimes they don't.

It really looks "uncontrollable" and inconsistent (not sure this word is the best).
In my opinion it would not be a problem is they weren't moving at all when the player interract with something. Usually we only click on things that are more or less close. If not, I guess most players are moving first.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 25/11/21 12:17 PM.
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especially annoying for encounters. Main char arrives, fight starts and the rest did barely start to move...:/

So i am all for more clever party movement

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