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Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: anstand] #683408
09/10/20 11:12 AM
09/10/20 11:12 AM
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Tuco Offline
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Originally Posted by anstand
Besides that, balancing might be even more troublesome for them, plus with only like six to ten companions at the end, parties might look very samey every time you start a new game.

I donìt get this argument.
Aside for the fact that "only six companions" would be disappointing regardless of party size, if anything reducing the number of slots is going to make me even more wary of experimenting with the occasional odd class/specialization. When you have only four slots, each one of them becomes even more valuable to cover for a key role, rather than trying fancy combinations and synergies.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. You too can join the good fight HERE
Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Sir Sparhawk] #683423
09/10/20 11:18 AM
09/10/20 11:18 AM
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Alon Binyamin Offline
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I actually like the 4 party member limit. Bigger parties will slowdown combat (which is already an issue), increase the time spent managing all party members (this is a wide issue I have where I try to create my own character and 'connect' with it but I spend just as much effort managing all other characters) and will make every other party member less valuable. Just a personal preference, but I feel 4 is just fine.

I also like the fact that I might not have all bases covered with my party. If I don't have a rouge I can't do rouge things. Great. It adds to the story, force me to make certain choices. The limit number of characters actually adds to the verity of plays I will have over time.

Of course I can always choose to only take 4 characters (even if the games allows for 6) but I would bet the game would be balanced and design for a full party. It's not the perfect solution, but I can live with it if it's important to other people.

Last edited by Alon Binyamin; 09/10/20 12:07 PM.
Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Tuco] #683433
09/10/20 11:21 AM
09/10/20 11:21 AM
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Gray Ghost Offline
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Agreed Tuco. I mentioned somewhere that playing as a ranger I'm not even thinking about taking Shadowheart and Lae'zel out of my party because with how much trouble I'm having with combat currently, I would have no chance without them. I might trade one of them out for a paladin if such a companion were introduced, but if they don't provide more companions that can fill a tank or healer role in the party then effectively that only leaves me with one extra slot I can devote to another companion.

Last edited by Gray Ghost; 09/10/20 11:22 AM.
Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: KingTiki] #683440
09/10/20 11:25 AM
09/10/20 11:25 AM
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arion Offline
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Originally Posted by KingTiki
DnD 5e is balanced around a 4 player party


weak argument. this is a video game not dnd and there is already its own balance. in addition, there will be difficulty levels so balance need to be adjusted to them all.

so 5-6 party is a must


Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Alon Binyamin] #683441
09/10/20 11:26 AM
09/10/20 11:26 AM
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Tuco Offline
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Originally Posted by Alon Binyamin
I actually like the 4 party member limit. Bigger parties will slowdown combat .

We already addressed this: in short, that's not true at all.
First, because if anything more party members would "clean up" the enemies quicker.
Second, because making room for 6 party members doesn't mean you CAN'T still play wioth 4, 2, or even solo if you want (surprise surprise, that's exactly what some people did with the past two Baldur's Gate games).
The mere fact you are splitting exp among less party members automatically address party scalability making smaller parties level up faster.


Last edited by Tuco; 09/10/20 11:26 AM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. You too can join the good fight HERE
Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Tuco] #683460
09/10/20 11:36 AM
09/10/20 11:36 AM
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Uncle Lester Offline
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Originally Posted by Tuco

The mere fact you are splitting exp among less party members automatically address party scalability making smaller parties level up faster.



Have they changed it? I haven't played EA, but iirc in the gameplay demos XP seemed to be the same regardless of party size.

Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Uncle Lester] #683467
09/10/20 11:39 AM
09/10/20 11:39 AM
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Tuco Offline
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Originally Posted by Uncle Lester

Have they changed it? I haven't played EA, but iirc in the gameplay demos XP seemed to be the same regardless of party size.

No, they didn't change it yet, but that's precisely ONE area where they could easily address the problem as a whole.
I'm fine with companions auto-leveling to keep even with you, but they could at least make that the number of party members decides how much exp each one gets.
You know, precisely like in the old Baldur's Gate games.



Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. You too can join the good fight HERE
Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Sir Sparhawk] #683475
09/10/20 11:45 AM
09/10/20 11:45 AM
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Rouoko Offline
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Currently game present us that option:
1 Thief
1 Cleric
1 Fighter
1 Mage
1 Warlock

We have lack of options in Baldur's Gate 1 or 2 there was more space in party and mroe characters to chose. In Divinity Original Sin and BG 3 we are limited to 4 character but in DO we got option to change every of character in our party from scrach almost everywhere. So if Larian want stay with 4 characters we shoud get a lot more avaible characters in later game. Baldur's Gate 2 for example allow player to join 5 from 17 avaible characters to his party. This was enought to make really ncie setups for every kind of player.

Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Tuco] #683494
09/10/20 11:53 AM
09/10/20 11:53 AM
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jonn Offline
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by jonn
Personally I'd trust that if Larian want to make & balance the game around a 4 person group, then that is the optimal way to go. In fact I'd be concerned that if enough people keep clamouring for a 6 man group then they will end up using time & resources to cater to them, to the detriment of other aspects of the overall experience.

Sounds like the marrying of a baseless assumption and a pointless concern.
Tweaking the UI to adjust for six characters wouldn't be that much work (especially if they also take the chances to improve party control, which is sorely needed regardless of party expansion) and encounters are still in the middle of balancing/tweaking, so better address the idea of a bigger party now rather than later down in production.




It's not just tweaking the UI though is it, entire maps are designed around encounters and battles. They would have to add quite a few more companions into the game too, otherwise you'd just end up taking the same ones every time. Which means designing, writing, coding, voice acting. I think there were 16 potential companions in BG 2 so if you're looking for this level of variability then that means tripling the amount of work they've done so far in terms of the above.

Just for the record, if this is something that Larian already have in the pipeline, then great, I'm all for it. As long as they can achieve it while still having enough time and resources to do everything else properly.

Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Rouoko] #683499
09/10/20 11:57 AM
09/10/20 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Rouoko
Currently game present us that option:
1 Thief
1 Cleric
1 Fighter
1 Mage
1 Warlock

We have lack of options in Baldur's Gate 1 or 2 there was more space in party and mroe characters to chose. In Divinity Original Sin and BG 3 we are limited to 4 character but in DO we got option to change every of character in our party from scrach almost everywhere. So if Larian want stay with 4 characters we shoud get a lot more avaible characters in later game. Baldur's Gate 2 for example allow player to join 5 from 17 avaible characters to his party. This was enought to make really ncie setups for every kind of player.


I believe it will be the case in the future. Swen talked about it in an interview, and they definitely intend to allow the change of classes for companions.

Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Nyanko] #683508
09/10/20 12:04 PM
09/10/20 12:04 PM
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Tuco Offline
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Originally Posted by Nyanko

I believe it will be the case in the future. Swen talked about it in an interview, and they definitely intend to allow the change of classes for companions.

Absolutely not a fan of "changing classes for companions", by the way.
Not in D&D, for sure.

I feel like their class and eventually their special abilities should be an integral part of their identity, not some accessory dressing that could be changed on a whim.
I'd obviously prefer just having more companions to select from. Then again Larian is making this exceptionally hard for itself with this terrible idea of making "every companion also a possible Origin story", which inflates the cost of creating each one considerably. Something that I hope they'll reconsider.

I'd take having a large selection of interesting characters over "having just few of them and being able to replay the game in their role" any day, frankly.





Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. You too can join the good fight HERE
Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Sir Sparhawk] #683509
09/10/20 12:04 PM
09/10/20 12:04 PM
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firebird71 Offline
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I agree completely. The 4 members big party feels too limiting and essentially doesn't allow for creativity or experimentation.

Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Tuco] #683514
09/10/20 12:05 PM
09/10/20 12:05 PM
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Alon Binyamin Offline
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Alon Binyamin
I actually like the 4 party member limit. Bigger parties will slowdown combat .

We already addressed this: in short, that's not true at all.
First, because if anything more party members would "clean up" the enemies quicker.
Second, because making room for 6 party members doesn't mean you CAN'T still play wioth 4, 2, or even solo if you want (surprise surprise, that's exactly what some people did with the past two Baldur's Gate games).
The mere fact you are splitting exp among less party members automatically address party scalability making smaller parties level up faster.



Fair point.
But I have a feeling that if we have a party of 6, they'll just add more enemies to encounters slowing it down again.

It's just I'm afraid that if the game would be designed for a party of 6, playing with 4 would require me to cheese some aspects. But it really is a matter of design. For example, if the fact that I can pick locks will drive me to a point where I have use Knock and rest every 10 minutes that would't be fun. But, if it means I can advance in the game reasonably but have to pass on some tasty loot or shortcuts because I couldn't pick the lock - great. It means my next playthrough, with a rouge, will be different.

As I said, I'm ok with it if it's important to people - I'll work around it.

On a side note, I personally find it hard not to "do everything", open every chest, visit every room, etc.. when I can do it (due to having all options available) - but it does kill the enjoyment from future playthroughs. I like it when the game forces me to choose.

Last edited by Alon Binyamin; 09/10/20 12:21 PM.
Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Nyanko] #683524
09/10/20 12:11 PM
09/10/20 12:11 PM
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Rouoko Offline
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Originally Posted by Nyanko
I believe it will be the case in the future. Swen talked about it in an interview, and they definitely intend to allow the change of classes for companions.



This will make game worst. What If I change Gale class to paladin or Wyll to thief? This will mess character design.

Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Sir Sparhawk] #683535
09/10/20 12:18 PM
09/10/20 12:18 PM
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Gray Ghost Offline
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Yeah, allowing some limited multi-classing where it makes sense for companions would be okay probably, but fully changing classes would actually break the story, especially since for some of them their class is tied directly into their stories. Shadowheart being a cleric of Shar is her big thing, as is Gale being a wizard and Wyll a Warlock. Astarion probably has a bit more wiggle room since "rogue" has always been kind of vague out of world, but even then you can only change him so far before the story breaks completely.

Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Sir Sparhawk] #683633
09/10/20 01:08 PM
09/10/20 01:08 PM
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I hope everyone that advocates for an increased party size also understands the implications on basically every single aspect of the entire game regarding balance.

This would in-effect basically cake-walk significant majority, if not the entire game.

Go play DOS2 with the standard 4 characters on the hardest difficulty (Tactician) then get a mod that adds only even ONE extra character and realise how trivial the game instantly becomes.


There's something to be said for challenge and less-is-more. If they've made/making the game around a party of 4, something like two extra characters, on top of being hugely imbalanced to the entire game, also becomes a massive micro-management of the party. Not to mention the various compounded-effects on the dialogue and story.

Going from 4 to 6 is where you get to that point when you keep folding a paper to the point you can't fold it any more. I honestly just cannot see this happening. As much as people want this to be DND, it's just not.


There are so many variables with even just a party of 4, basically adding 2 more you'd effectively be quadrupling the work required in the game to facilitate this. Entire re-balancing, entire interactions and a whole complex myriad of sequences, dialogue, events, triggers.

I have a belief that they would have come to a decision of 4 by purpose, by choice and with good reason. We may not know it, and maybe it's not set in stone, but i'm almost certain the discussion came up of Party-size at some point and i guarantee you the size of 4 was selected for a lot of reasons. To go back on that, i just can't see it happening. Not this far along...

Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: fixxer] #683666
09/10/20 01:19 PM
09/10/20 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by fixxer
I hope everyone that advocates for an increased party size also understands the implications on basically every single aspect of the entire game regarding balance.

This would in-effect basically cake-walk significant majority, if not the entire game.

Go play DOS2 with the standard 4 characters on the hardest difficulty (Tactician) then get a mod that adds only even ONE extra character and realise how trivial the game instantly becomes.


There's something to be said for challenge and less-is-more. If they've made/making the game around a party of 4, something like two extra characters, on top of being hugely imbalanced to the entire game, also becomes a massive micro-management of the party. Not to mention the various compounded-effects on the dialogue and story.

Going from 4 to 6 is where you get to that point when you keep folding a paper to the point you can't fold it any more. I honestly just cannot see this happening. As much as people want this to be DND, it's just not.


The game is actually called Baldur's Gate instead of Divinity Original Sin so yeah IT IS D&D and that's how they should focus it. About challenges of course right now on low levels there aren't many hard encounters (even the goblin part is ok) but do remember unlike any game made by them D&D has a lot of monters, a LOT to choose and design encounters. With some very epic and legendary ones specially on the late game, ones that actually need you to have a variety of characters like bard to support using Countercharm or Hypnotic Pattern, or a Paladin with their auras, A Wizard to cast powerfull spells and control, as well as a Cleric to Control/Damage/Heal and of course a Rougue to Search for traps/disarm and lockpick, and should I mention a Barbarian or Fighter as well to Wreck Havoc at the enemy lines, and a Ranger to shooting things down and dealing tons of damage?

Stop thinking like DOS cause it might be Larian but it ain't DOS. This is D&D and every class brings something to the table and being restricted to 4 is actually damaging in the aspect of supporting each other in the mid and late game.

Last edited by HeavensBells; 09/10/20 01:46 PM.
Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: fixxer] #683668
09/10/20 01:22 PM
09/10/20 01:22 PM
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Tuco Offline
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Originally Posted by fixxer
I hope everyone that advocates for an increased party size also understands the implications on basically every single aspect of the entire game regarding balance.

Yes, we absolutely do.
Thanks for your concern.

And "balance" at the current state of development is such a bogus thing to worry about.
Encounters will still need to be fine tuned for more than a year to come, regardless of any change to the party size.

Last edited by Tuco; 09/10/20 01:23 PM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. You too can join the good fight HERE
Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: Sir Sparhawk] #683712
09/10/20 01:44 PM
09/10/20 01:44 PM
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A party of six would feel much more in inline with D&D on pen and paper. I can't help but feel the 4 party limit is kind of a Divinity carryover.

Re: My open letter to Larian on party size. [Re: jayn23] #683732
09/10/20 01:52 PM
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Sir Sparhawk Offline OP
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Originally Posted by TheWhiteRabbit
Imma add my 2 cents to this conversation and say no, stick with 4. MAYBE 5, but thats absolutely it.

All this nonsense that players are saying about conversations should be with everyone involved, huge parties, and what have you. This is 2020, games are no longer easy, or handed to you. You have to actually -PLAY- them, and that means making, (everyone duck!), decisions!

Everyone can talk in one conversation? Offering their rolls to conversational choices? Why have choices at all then? You are loading the dice. How is this even fun when you "win" every conversation? Why. Roll. The. Dice. At. All.

6 member party? Why choose what classes you want to bring that would be best for whatever situation? You aren't making any decisions at this point, you are just freerolling and claiming a win for something you didn't Actually win in the first place because you started a combat with a loaded out squad.

To be completely fair to the OP, whom for the record is the exact same age as I am, down to the month, which is creepy and cool, their suggestion is essentially the creating of a different mode, which also includes a warning that this makes the game easier (I would use the word 'free', but I digress), I don't hate having more options, nor will I ever, but this distinction MUST be made.

Your argument about been able to have everything and leave nothing behind removing any choices is very valid in EA where we have 5 companions and 6 classes to choose from meaning if you was a ranger you would have everything, which is one of the reasons I said focus on the game as is for now and add it at launch. And we already know there are another 6 classes planned for launch Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Paladin & Sorcerer. If they make 12 companions you'd be leaving half of them behind and two thirds if the make 18, I don't think they have said exactly how many companions there will be so I have pulled those numbers out of thin air. I'm not opposed to the four player party and I'm glad that the people who like it can pay the way they want, and people who like solo challenge runs are catered for since you don't have to recruit anyone if you don't want to, but those of us who like six player parties have no real choice implemented but Larian themselves, we have to rely on modders and risk it breaking the game in unexpected ways beyond balance. To me it is immersion breaking to leave highly capable adventurers behind at camp while I face all the danger myself so I will only be recruiting as many people fit into my party, leaving plenty to discover on subsequent playthroughs.
Oh and I'm July 3rd if that makes any difference to you.

Originally Posted by jayn23
Just to add my point of view to the discussion, while like most of you guys I would preferer a party of 6 for multiple reasons most were mentioned before so no point in going over them again.
Larian has already acknowledged that many fans want a 6 player party and they still decided to go for a 4 party build because they felt it was the "sweet spot" so asking them to change to 6 party and rebalance the whole game in very unlikely, I think we should be more realistic with our requests and go with what the OP suggested - they continue to follow there vision and create the game for a 4 man party, add a option in menus to unlock a 6 man party with a pop up notifying you that the game was balanced for 4 man party and difficulty level is untested for this build.
this has a much higher chance of happening if they see the demand for it.

and for those thinking that what's the point of a 6 man party if combat is balanced for 4 - well i can give you at least one laugh
after act 1 we need to choose who moves on with us to act2 and who is left behind, this way we get to take more companions with us - more companions quests to do, better RP and banter etc..

I normally play games for story and not challenge so I usually pick an easier difficulty, and if a 6 man mode is not balanced I would probably play it on hard difficulty instead of normal to get the base level challenge. Yes a six man party might not be as challenging as four a man but there will be a fair bit we can do to offset that with difficulty settings ourselves without Larian having to do anything other than implement a setting to be able to increase party size. People who like challenge and limitations are catered for already since they can do self imposed challenges, that's why nuzlock is a thing, people like to be challenged, but someone who wants a larger party to take a less cookie cutter and more divers party has no options, and no I don't believe "let the modders fix it" is a valid response. Larian is big enough with enough staff that it is something they should be able to implement themselves without relying on their customers to fix their game or add features that large portions of their fan base want since it is a feature of the two previous games this is a sequel to.

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