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Well, rest as a whole is a bit scuffed there. Makes no sense where I am enemy stronghold and can just go ahead and "teleport" to the camp for full rest. I imagine they will fix this further down the road (and add more camp maps while at it), after that is done and long rest will be restrictive as it should be, then they should up short rests to 2 per long rest.

Originally Posted by SirMoogle
Meanwhile, my warlock boy is happily Eldritch Blasting away without really using spell slots. :P


Warlocks are really somewhat weak, Wizard Firebolt literally does the same and more, setting things on fire and it's not going to be any better once we're in high levels and they get to blast high level spells out the wazoo while Warlocks will still be with Eldritch Blast and 4x2 + 4 spells at their prime against something like 25 spells + recovery and at will level 1 and level 2 casting of spells of their choice.

I really think that power-wise Warlocks are an underdog in 5e. Yes, Eldritch Blast is the best cantrip there is in the end, but the gap between it and Wizard cantrips that also scale is not big and you pay for it with a crippled spellcasting ability. Ye, you get leather, more HP and some tricks, but imo they simply don't hold a candle to Wizard as it is. And don't get me started about Sorcerer, these are direct competitors with Charisma and all and can be as sturdy too with Draconic bloodline, while having even more powerful spellcasting.

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Gaidax you pretty much hit out on the main problem; it's a balance issue. Classes with short rest recovery are based on the idea that they will have more opportunities to recover their resources than those based on long rests. Capping short rests to 1 for each long rest is essentially cutting warlocks and monks off at the knees. The major limitation should be on long rests, as in you have to have been playing for a period of time before you can long rest again. In standard 5e a character can't benefit from more than 1 long rest in 24 hours, but there are no restrictions on short rests. It is seriously problematic balance wise, if it stands then warlocks should get more spells slots, and monks should get more ki and have the ki costs reduced to compensate for fundamental imbalance in their design.

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I do agree that most warlock builds in 5e are underdogs (mostly because most groups do 1 or 2 encounters per adventure day), but it must be said that there are some amazing Hexblade builds you can make. Though many would consider those builds munchkin builds.

The solution should be to limit long rests. It is when you have many short rests, and few long rests, martials, warlocks etc get to shine.


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Originally Posted by Gaidax
Well, rest as a whole is a bit scuffed there. Makes no sense where I am enemy stronghold and can just go ahead and "teleport" to the camp for full rest. I imagine they will fix this further down the road (and add more camp maps while at it), after that is done and long rest will be restrictive as it should be, then they should up short rests to 2 per long rest.

Originally Posted by SirMoogle
Meanwhile, my warlock boy is happily Eldritch Blasting away without really using spell slots. :P


Warlocks are really somewhat weak, Wizard Firebolt literally does the same and more, setting things on fire and it's not going to be any better once we're in high levels and they get to blast high level spells out the wazoo while Warlocks will still be with Eldritch Blast and 4x2 + 4 spells at their prime against something like 25 spells + recovery and at will level 1 and level 2 casting of spells of their choice.

I really think that power-wise Warlocks are an underdog in 5e. Yes, Eldritch Blast is the best cantrip there is in the end, but the gap between it and Wizard cantrips that also scale is not big and you pay for it with a crippled spellcasting ability. Ye, you get leather, more HP and some tricks, but imo they simply don't hold a candle to Wizard as it is. And don't get me started about Sorcerer, these are direct competitors with Charisma and all and can be as sturdy too with Draconic bloodline, while having even more powerful spellcasting.


That isn't a true representation of eldritch blast. At first level with the hex spell, cast as a bonus action you can get 1d10 +1d6 damage for every encounter because you can reapply hex once casted as a bonus action. Even after taking a short rest getting you spell slot back you can still reapply hex as a bonus action. At second level you can add your charisma bonus to eldritch blast via an invocation, 1d10+1d6+3* that is an average damage of 12 every attack. That isn't chicken feed and that more than eclipses a wizard's firebolt. 5-19 damage at second level that can be used for EVERY attack all day isn't something I would call weak nor underpowered. Also hex gives disadvantage to 1 chosen ability for all its ability check rolls.

Warlocks are a narrower focus from wizards but Warlocks can get multiple abilities that are "use at will." No spell slot needed just use it at will. I haven't even talked about all the other invocations that modify and improve eldritch blast. if you think a simple reading of the cantrip Eldritch blast tells you all you need to know about eldritch blast you have more research to do on Warlocks. Warlocks can do fewer things than other casters but what they can do they do it VERY well and in many instances far more often that any other caster could dream of doing.

* this assumes a 16 CHA which isn't unreasonable a stat for a caster class.

Last edited by Gothfather; 10/10/20 04:37 AM.
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Until I got to the Underdark a single short rest felt ok, but now is not nearly enough. Even at level 4 every encounter takes a lot, and the map itself is like a minefield.


Necromancy is just recycling...
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Originally Posted by Gothfather
Originally Posted by Gaidax
Well, rest as a whole is a bit scuffed there. Makes no sense where I am enemy stronghold and can just go ahead and "teleport" to the camp for full rest. I imagine they will fix this further down the road (and add more camp maps while at it), after that is done and long rest will be restrictive as it should be, then they should up short rests to 2 per long rest.

Originally Posted by SirMoogle
Meanwhile, my warlock boy is happily Eldritch Blasting away without really using spell slots. :P


Warlocks are really somewhat weak, Wizard Firebolt literally does the same and more, setting things on fire and it's not going to be any better once we're in high levels and they get to blast high level spells out the wazoo while Warlocks will still be with Eldritch Blast and 4x2 + 4 spells at their prime against something like 25 spells + recovery and at will level 1 and level 2 casting of spells of their choice.

I really think that power-wise Warlocks are an underdog in 5e. Yes, Eldritch Blast is the best cantrip there is in the end, but the gap between it and Wizard cantrips that also scale is not big and you pay for it with a crippled spellcasting ability. Ye, you get leather, more HP and some tricks, but imo they simply don't hold a candle to Wizard as it is. And don't get me started about Sorcerer, these are direct competitors with Charisma and all and can be as sturdy too with Draconic bloodline, while having even more powerful spellcasting.


That isn't a true representation of eldritch blast. At first level with the hex spell, cast as a bonus action you can get 1d10 +1d6 damage for every encounter because you can reapply hex once casted as a bonus action. Even after taking a short rest getting you spell slot back you can still reapply hex as a bonus action. At second level you can add your charisma bonus to eldritch blast via an invocation, 1d10+1d6+3* that is an average damage of 12 every attack. That isn't chicken feed and that more than eclipses a wizard's firebolt. 5-19 damage at second level that can be used for EVERY attack all day isn't something I would call weak nor underpowered. Also hex gives disadvantage to 1 chosen ability for all its ability check rolls.

Warlocks are a narrower focus from wizards but Warlocks can get multiple abilities that are "use at will." No spell slot needed just use it at will. I haven't even talked about all the other invocations that modify and improve eldritch blast. if you think a simple reading of the cantrip Eldritch blast tells you all you need to know about eldritch blast you have more research to do on Warlocks. Warlocks can do fewer things than other casters but what they can do they do it VERY well and in many instances far more often that any other caster could dream of doing.

* this assumes a 16 CHA which isn't unreasonable a stat for a caster class.


Also in this game firebolt deaks 1d6 fire damage, not 1d10 like in D&D5e rules.

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Originally Posted by _Vic_

Also in this game firebolt deaks 1d6 fire damage, not 1d10 like in D&D5e rules.


I'm 99% sure that's because of burn.

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Originally Posted by Gothfather
That isn't a true representation of eldritch blast. At first level with the hex spell, cast as a bonus action you can get 1d10 +1d6 damage for every encounter because you can reapply hex once casted as a bonus action. Even after taking a short rest getting you spell slot back you can still reapply hex as a bonus action. At second level you can add your charisma bonus to eldritch blast via an invocation, 1d10+1d6+3* that is an average damage of 12 every attack. That isn't chicken feed and that more than eclipses a wizard's firebolt. 5-19 damage at second level that can be used for EVERY attack all day isn't something I would call weak nor underpowered. Also hex gives disadvantage to 1 chosen ability for all its ability check rolls.

Warlocks are a narrower focus from wizards but Warlocks can get multiple abilities that are "use at will." No spell slot needed just use it at will. I haven't even talked about all the other invocations that modify and improve eldritch blast. if you think a simple reading of the cantrip Eldritch blast tells you all you need to know about eldritch blast you have more research to do on Warlocks. Warlocks can do fewer things than other casters but what they can do they do it VERY well and in many instances far more often that any other caster could dream of doing.

* this assumes a 16 CHA which isn't unreasonable a stat for a caster class.


This is my observation so far too ... Warlock is definitely more bursty and versatile, especially towards higher levels, because Eldritch Blast can easily do 9+6 at level 3.
Wizard's benefit is mostly having a larger arsenal of spells.
But these are just observations from level 1 through 4.
So I think both are great in their own way.

Last edited by Genky; 10/10/20 09:06 AM.
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Originally Posted by Genky
Originally Posted by _Vic_

Also in this game firebolt deaks 1d6 fire damage, not 1d10 like in D&D5e rules.


I'm 99% sure that's because of burn.


It absolutely is. The burn makes it wayyyy stronger generally than a flat 1d10 would.

--

I'd love more short rests between long rests, but only if long rests were more restricted somehow. Not sure how to balance long rests, though, given that both tying it to an in game time system or out of game time would be awkward.

--

Originally Posted by Druid_NPC
Until I got to the Underdark a single short rest felt ok, but now is not nearly enough. Even at level 4 every encounter takes a lot, and the map itself is like a minefield.


I think the Underdark is pretty heavily balanced around a level 5 party. It's certainly Doable currently, but sometimes you just get one turned TPK'd

Last edited by QuietCountryCafe; 10/10/20 10:25 AM.
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Quote
That isn't a true representation of eldritch blast. At first level with the hex spell, cast as a bonus action you can get 1d10 +1d6 damage for every encounter because you can reapply hex once casted as a bonus action. Even after taking a short rest getting you spell slot back you can still reapply hex as a bonus action. At second level you can add your charisma bonus to eldritch blast via an invocation, 1d10+1d6+3* that is an average damage of 12 every attack. That isn't chicken feed and that more than eclipses a wizard's firebolt. 5-19 damage at second level that can be used for EVERY attack all day isn't something I would call weak nor underpowered. Also hex gives disadvantage to 1 chosen ability for all its ability check rolls.

Warlocks are a narrower focus from wizards but Warlocks can get multiple abilities that are "use at will." No spell slot needed just use it at will. I haven't even talked about all the other invocations that modify and improve eldritch blast. if you think a simple reading of the cantrip Eldritch blast tells you all you need to know about eldritch blast you have more research to do on Warlocks. Warlocks can do fewer things than other casters but what they can do they do it VERY well and in many instances far more often that any other caster could dream of doing.

* this assumes a 16 CHA which isn't unreasonable a stat for a caster class.


Try that thing ingame, half the time you can't even land the damned thing. What we have ingame now as a Warlock is basically a crippled Ranger/Wizard. Theories are one thing, but the reality is that in the end you simply are a shitty Hunter Ranger like that.


Like right now ingame level 3 ranger and level 3 warlock. Ranger has easy +3 extra attack (+1 weapon, +2 archery) on top of Warlock, passive Colossus Slayer (extra 1d8 damage) and Hunter's Mark, which is literally Hex minus the saving throw debuff AND they can dip arrows in surfaces easily spawned by your friendly Wizard - free fire arrows for all the eternity. When we will get to level 5 that Ranger will have one more attack too, like Eldritch Blast gaining one and seeing how game supposedly caps at level 10 - Warlocks will be stuck with same 2 spell slots and same 2 Eldritch Blast attacks for good and same shitty Proficiency + Modifier for attack vs Rangers having same AND another +3 to +5 assuming we get +3 weapons.

I certainly hope they will reconsider 1 rest thing and level 10 ultimate cap, because like that - Warlocks are simply not up to snuff, you'd be stuck with your 4-1 spells per long rest and Eldritch Blast that is a worse version of what Rangers do anyway. There is no ifs and buts there - 1 short rest is a big disadvantage to Warlock.


It's really how it is - it's not about some silly class honor or something - it's really simple case of having one short rest and level 10 cap as intended turns warlock into a shitty ranger with nerfed attack modifier that can toss 4-1 Wizard spells per rest and that's it. It IS weak, there is no ifs and buts there.

Heck to add insult to injury, with the way firebolt works in BG3, you practically hit even if you miss and you can turn it into a buff for all your martial companions at will and you tell me stories about supposedly unique Warlock prowess... joke. The only real thing Warlocks have is Dark One's Blessing and even that is just little more than a pot saver if you think about, because you can use pots as bonus action in BG3 anyway.

Last edited by Gaidax; 10/10/20 02:23 PM.
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Wow imagine complaining about warlock. There is a reason warlock is considered a strong class in 5e.

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Originally Posted by Silent Cetra
Wow imagine complaining about warlock. There is a reason warlock is considered a strong class in 5e.


What we're trying to say here is that it is crippled by short rests restrictions, as in the thread. Not hard to figure that one, title and all.

There's one thing 5e and there's another thing what we have in reality in BG3 with its rules adjustments and all.

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Originally Posted by Silent Cetra
Wow imagine complaining about warlock. There is a reason warlock is considered a strong class in 5e.


And what exactly could a warlock do in PnP with only a single short rest? Not much at all.

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It's way more crippled by the availability and access to long rests than it is by the amount of short rests. If no caster has to plan around their spell slots and can blow their load every encounter, Warlock is the one that gets punished on account of having the fewest slots.

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Originally Posted by Gaidax
Quote
That isn't a true representation of eldritch blast. At first level with the hex spell, cast as a bonus action you can get 1d10 +1d6 damage for every encounter because you can reapply hex once casted as a bonus action. Even after taking a short rest getting you spell slot back you can still reapply hex as a bonus action. At second level you can add your charisma bonus to eldritch blast via an invocation, 1d10+1d6+3* that is an average damage of 12 every attack. That isn't chicken feed and that more than eclipses a wizard's firebolt. 5-19 damage at second level that can be used for EVERY attack all day isn't something I would call weak nor underpowered. Also hex gives disadvantage to 1 chosen ability for all its ability check rolls.

Warlocks are a narrower focus from wizards but Warlocks can get multiple abilities that are "use at will." No spell slot needed just use it at will. I haven't even talked about all the other invocations that modify and improve eldritch blast. if you think a simple reading of the cantrip Eldritch blast tells you all you need to know about eldritch blast you have more research to do on Warlocks. Warlocks can do fewer things than other casters but what they can do they do it VERY well and in many instances far more often that any other caster could dream of doing.

* this assumes a 16 CHA which isn't unreasonable a stat for a caster class.


Try that thing ingame, half the time you can't even land the damned thing. What we have ingame now as a Warlock is basically a crippled Ranger/Wizard. Theories are one thing, but the reality is that in the end you simply are a shitty Hunter Ranger like that.


Like right now ingame level 3 ranger and level 3 warlock. Ranger has easy +3 extra attack (+1 weapon, +2 archery) on top of Warlock, passive Colossus Slayer (extra 1d8 damage) and Hunter's Mark, which is literally Hex minus the saving throw debuff AND they can dip arrows in surfaces easily spawned by your friendly Wizard - free fire arrows for all the eternity. When we will get to level 5 that Ranger will have one more attack too, like Eldritch Blast gaining one and seeing how game supposedly caps at level 10 - Warlocks will be stuck with same 2 spell slots and same 2 Eldritch Blast attacks for good and same shitty Proficiency + Modifier for attack vs Rangers having same AND another +3 to +5 assuming we get +3 weapons.

I certainly hope they will reconsider 1 rest thing and level 10 ultimate cap, because like that - Warlocks are simply not up to snuff, you'd be stuck with your 4-1 spells per long rest and Eldritch Blast that is a worse version of what Rangers do anyway. There is no ifs and buts there - 1 short rest is a big disadvantage to Warlock.


It's really how it is - it's not about some silly class honor or something - it's really simple case of having one short rest and level 10 cap as intended turns warlock into a shitty ranger with nerfed attack modifier that can toss 4-1 Wizard spells per rest and that's it. It IS weak, there is no ifs and buts there.

Heck to add insult to injury, with the way firebolt works in BG3, you practically hit even if you miss and you can turn it into a buff for all your martial companions at will and you tell me stories about supposedly unique Warlock prowess... joke. The only real thing Warlocks have is Dark One's Blessing and even that is just little more than a pot saver if you think about, because you can use pots as bonus action in BG3 anyway.



You make some points I agree with, and some pointa I disagree with. Dipping one arrow in fire and getting a massive buff to damage is a good point. Its unrealistic, does not fit with D&D, and is wacky and silly. An arrow dipped in fire gains several advantages: It will often damage an opponent even if it misses. It will often DoT (damage over time) the opponent when hit. It will often CC the opponent: Silly stuff like ice surfaces appearing beneath their feet when they get shot in the chest by an arrow. The effective damage of an arrow dipped in fire is probably double that of a normal arrow. Which shows a lack of knowledge regarding 5e balance when it comes to the game designers.

Point I disagree with: Warlocks being bad rangers: In the TTRPG a well built warlock outdamages a ranger by a mile. It is actually the other way around. A ranger is a bad warlock without the utility. Or rather Rangers are bad archers who wish they could compete with Fighters who spec into ranged. That being said: Yes, the current rest system is idiotic at best, and it screws over the classes that use short rest as a battery. Another sign that few game designers at Larian have a deep experience with D&D. Now I must admit that Larian has changed many classes drastically, so I do not know if ANY of what i said is true in the game.

Thirdly: Yes, warlocks are not amazing if you build them as a standard caster. The only standout builds for a warlock in 5e are hexblade builds (The other subclasse are quite bad). And a warlock is kind of forced in to a few narrow paths to make them shine. People who say otherwise, play with unoptimized characters (which is fine if they enjoy it).

Finally: I am on your side though. 5e, is balanced around 6-8 encounters per day. And it should be easier to enforce in a videogame than at the table. If you just give people free long rests, you are making the classes who are reliant on only short rests useless. The current system is a large, blinking sign showing us that Larian does not understand the system they are supposed to be using. For some reason they think that their wacky surface mechanic is a good fit for D&D (Zap yourself via blood from the enemy). For no good gameplay reason whatsoever they have changed many classes into something completely different from D&D. Do they think they know balance better than a game tested by time over and over, or do they not respect the material? 5e has its issuer at high level, but it works better than any MMO or videogame I have played in combat. The OP factor of Wizards etc, come from the power of imagination and how you can use spells. That does not translate well to videogames.

Last edited by Ascorius; 10/10/20 09:53 PM.
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Originally Posted by Genky
Originally Posted by _Vic_

Also in this game firebolt deaks 1d6 fire damage, not 1d10 like in D&D5e rules.


I'm 99% sure that's because of burn.


Probably also because it is AoE now and DMG identifies d6 as appropriate for that

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Long rest should come with a downside (for instance you have to eat food like in PnP. If you don't eat then you will have a debuff on the next day. Or maybe possible ambushes, etc.). Otherwise it feels very meaningless since you can do it after every fight.
Short rests on the other hand should be like in PnP (1 hit die per level and you can rest as long as you have hit dice left).

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I'm only a few hours into the game, and I couldn't agree more with the notion that short rests should be increased (2 times between long rests seems good to me), and long rests should be limited somehow.

Adding some realism to resting would be nice. Perhaps 8 hours of game time has to pass before you can long rest again?

Larian could add a "realism mode" which caters to this issue. That way, people who prefer to cheese their way through the game can still do so.

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