Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Sneak Attack as a Toggle

I noticed that there's a toggle for using Attacks of Opportunity or not and then saw that Sneak Attack is an ability. It seems like it'd make more sense to make Sneak Attack a toggle as well (though not sure when you wouldn't want to do the extra damage). If the toggle is on, then Sneak Attack will be applied if that attack qualifies per the rules. I just feel it's cumbersome that I have to click the ability and then click the target instead of just being able to click on the target and have it auto applied when applicable. Maybe a nice quality of life change.

There was another thread about this yesterday where people wanted it to be automatic. The thing that makes this tricky is that there are situations in which people want to be able to control when they use it. Two examples:

• Crit fishers: You multi-class into a fighter and have Action Surge. You crit when you Action Surge attack, but the game used your sneak attack during the first section of attacks.
• Currently it seems the game applies all damage regardless of what actually kills the enemy. If an enemy dies to one attack outside of sneak attack, a player that is dual wielding may wish to save their bonus attack and sneak attack damage for another enemy.

Hi, I might be the one who made the other thread you are referring to dreambled. My two cents is that if you don't want to activate sneak attack, then attack in a way that wouldn't activate sneak attack. Get off high ground, don't be in stealth, equip a non-ranged or finesse weapon. There is no need for a toggle when the basic implementation of sneak attack, automatic or not, is itself a toggle. The default design of sneak attack should reflect how it's used the vast majority of the time.

Those don't seem like great solution to me. What if I don't want to leave the high ground? Why would I want to gimp my rolls by equipping weapons most likely based on STR which is not something the typical Rogue will want to invest heavily in?

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding about how sneak attacks work: It uses your action to sneak attack, so attacking with any other attack that ISN'T a sneak attack uses your ability to sneak attack that round (unless hasted or granted another attack from another source).

The problem is missing with your sneak attack means you don't get sneak attack damage for that round, even if you are using 2 weapons and get your bonus action attack. That's the whole point of 2WF with a Rogue: for extra chances at sneak attack damage during a round. There's also the fact that you don't get a sneak attack for an attack of opportunity, as you would in the P&P version (assuming the other qualifiers were met). That is the scenario where a toggle would come into play. Like you said, the toggle would mostly be ignored, as it is used with the first attack a vast majority of the time. But when it isn't used that way (misses happen A LOT with RNG), it feels like bad game design.

But here's a scenario where you hit with all your attacks and STILL don't want to sneak attack with your first attack: You are using 2WF and fighting multiple enemies. Enemy 1 is next to you and only has a couple of HP left, something you can easily do with 1 + your Dex mod. Enemy 2 isn't within striking distance and has more HP. You would want to use your main hand weapon to make sure the first enemy dies (your offhand weapon only deals weapon damage, no modifier) and then move over to the enemy with more HP and deal sneak attack damage. In this scenario, it's more optimal to deal main hand damage, ensure the enemy dies, and then move to the enemy with more HP and use your sneak attack with one of your bonus actions.

Sneak attacking an enemy with 4 HP when there is an enemy with more HP just feels bad and can actually result in a death (especially since the game ignores action economy when creating challenges)

Kind of agree. But the other scenario (attack, move, attack with Sneak attack) is quite rare to happen. Keep in mind that you still need to meet some pre-requisites to be able to use Sneak attack (ally within 5ft is the most common one). Plus, player needs to hit in order to make off-hand attack as a bonus action. But can happen for sure.
But any game developers needs to keep in mind is what most likely is going to happen. In what scenario the player will be in like 90% of a time, which is not the one described.

I see no issue of having Sneak attack being ON by default and having an option to turn it OFF in those rare cases. As DnD player I automatically thought that sneak attach is automatically applied. Sure, new players might see it normal as it is "just another skill character has".

In short, I strongly believe that Sneak attack should be ON by default and having an option to turn it OFF.
It is the same logic as doing non-lethal dmg. Yes, there are some "rare" situations that you would not want to kill that NPC. But in majority of time, you want to deal lethal dmg.
And I do not think it is too hard to implement. The skill is already in game, toggle function is also there (though it restarts with each round).

What other thinks?
raTlik.

@dreambled It seems like a good solution to me, because it's rare that you would ever want to gimp your rolls. If it's a rare situation, it shouldn't be the default way that it's done. In fact, if it's a little bit harder, then that's fine as well. But I guess it's just whether or not you value a small but constant good more than a large(?) but occasional bad. Although I agree about equipping a str weapon mid combat being a bit much, I shouldn't have mentioned that as an option. If I really, really did want less damage, I would just leave the high ground or unhide. A bit of inconvenience for one turn every once in a long while is worth two slots in my hotbar to me.

@SLOPOrion I understand that sneak attack works only once a turn. To clarify a little, although the OP suggested a toggle, in my thread I actually suggested that the attack button be upgraded to always sneak attack by default if the conditions are met. That's probably even worse from your perspective! Anyway, in terms of 2WF, if you miss with your first attack, it shouldn't use your sneak attack. I reread the 5e feature, and it says the damage is applied to a creature you hit, so if you miss there shouldn't be an issue. You still have your sneak attack for that turn. In terms of the other scenario, so the first creature you would hit using your full action and the second creature you hit with your bonus action and apply sneak attack. Truthfully, I'm cool with sneak attack being automatically conserved if the damage would go to waste. I don't know if it's realistic, but that can also be good design, if it makes the experience better and less frustrating. But in the scenario you gave, you have your full action for that first attack. You can't deal 4 damage in any other way? You can't throw something, like a dagger in your inventory? Or just let another party member deal with it, and use both attacks on that other enemy? Do you really want a dedicated button for this over two spots in that tiny hotbar we have? I really do believe that if the vast majority of the time you can't benefit from an option, and even when you could you probably don't actually need it, then it should not even be in the game, let alone the default.

I agree, sneak attack should be a toggle. If you want it to apply to the first attack that satisfies sneak attack requirements that you land each round, you never have to turn it off.

If you want to disable it temporarily for tactical reasons (most commonly to have sneak attack damage dice apply to your off-hand attack), then you have the opportunity to do so with a toggle.

Actually, I was testing in the game to see if sneak attack could be applied to non-finesse weapons, and it does. I don't know if they intend to change it later on but longswords are perfectly capable of sneak attacks, I don't know if this is due to them being a rogue proficiency, or if they allow the rogue to sneak attack with any proficient weapon as that would make Gith greatsword wielding rogues very powerful.

That would be a poor choice on Larian's part to keep. I'm hoping it's just an initial coding and something they need to refine to follow the 5e ruleset. Sneak Attack should only apply to Finesse and Ranged

No sneak attacks shouldn't be a toggle. You are allowed only one sneak attack per turn. And when your rogue will get more than one attack a turn, you will be happy to choose on which of them you can apply your sneak attack. This is why it's a skill and not a default thing.

Let me give an example. You are level 6+ and behind an enemy who has 1 HP left. You won't waste your sneak attack on him if you can just kill him, move behind another adversary and use your sneak attack on a target where it will definitely be more useful. Add even more attacks per turn as you level up and you get the picture.

That's wrong, If you miss mainhand attack sneak can be applied to offhand, it's something Very importante actually to keep rogue viable, as having only one chance do deal significant damage at high level makes one of the lowest dps on 5e just straight up the worst by far.

Talking about your example, that's the reason for a toggle, you disable it, kill the enemy, reenable for next attack, it works for both cases, currently it works only for the case where you never miss your main attack

No, it should not be a toggle. It should be automatic. The first attack which hits. If your main hand misses, but your off-hand attack hits, the off-hand gets sneak attack.

A toggle is an extra thing to manage, and I don't think that having to manage that yourself is something you should need to do, when the game could easily handle that for you.

But but but If don't want to manage the toggle Just... Leave It on?

I want to manage because that is something Very importante for some rogue builds to work and is How the sneak attack mechanic works by the PHB, why change tô something more limiting. A toggle gives everything you are asking for, by just leaving It on, but also makes sneak attack work according to rules, so why not toggle?

Again the same example, If there is a low HP enemy and I attack I don't want to apply sneak, so I disable the toggle, otherwise you waste your damage. And having the game choose for you is also bad, because sometimes you don't aim to kill, you aim to get unconcious, and sneak could ruin that, again a toggle would fix it, where automatic only adds different problems

Indeed. Game do check anyway if attack would or would not qualify for additional sneak damage. So why not just have rouges set it as permanent?
Not mentioning that in core rules, if you fail to hit on first attack - you by no means forfeit your sneak attack for this round. As long you still can make more than one attack.

They handle it weird because you can use bonus action offhand attack before the attack action is taken (if it all). Off hand is contingent on Attack action being used as the action. They also dont let you do sneak attack damage on attack of opportunity, which you can do. Because of their attack flow, and that if you forget to click it both main and offhand are used in 1 attack, it would be nice to just split all 4 attack into different attack as what weapon you are using matters and it allows you to dip or whatever you want to focus on a particular one.