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I have no idea why everyone is against the supposed alignments of the current companions and everyone being so hostile. *I haven't completed a playthrough*

*SPOILERS*

Astarion is obviously in the evil/neutral area but he was a thrall for vampires. He has lived with vampires. However, if you show him decency and trust he shows a very loyal side to him that seems almost good. He earnestly thanks you for letting you feed.
I find him to be someone that has lived in an evil environment so he has evil survivalist tendencies but responds to respect and kindness towards him very innocently?

Shadowheart - is someone who is devout. She doesn't seem MUAHAHA evil but someone who was most likely a good person but was shown mercy and love by an evil goddess. There is a lot of nuance in her character. Embaressment, humour, surprise, bluntness. These aren't the signs of a one sided evil character
but rather someone who is more than her "Evil Cleric" tag.

Gale: I honestly really like him. I don't care he that is pompous. He is a wizard and a pretty good one too.

Laezal: I get she is supposed to be "evil" but I honestly don't see it all the way. Especially when you catch her hiding something. She doesn't feel great about looking for her group but rather from a sense of duty. She seems like a very extreme "turian" for my mass effect folks.

Wylle: Good boi with dark beginnings. I think we always need good characters that are just good.

On every other NPC
Tieflings are on a survivalist mindset. You really think they are gonna fully take in someone new? Prove yourself
Druids don't want the tieflings there, that includes you bud.
There is this really nice old lady that gives you potions
Nettie wants to help you and she does it in the only way she can because Halsin isn't there.

You are in a very dire time where people are in survival mode, tensions are super high, and you want someone to go "Hey pal, how are you doing? I'm just bubbling with joy to meet you. Wanna go on an adventure?"

I suspect that we will find more open NPCs in future acts and more adventuring attitudes. But a first Act where you crash landed into what is basically a skirmish with companions of complex backgrounds and the same problem as you, I EXPECT to have to prove myself. i EXPECT NPCs to be weary of me.

What I really think needs work is more live reactions from companions when something happens. Like my head going into the Mind Flayer or when I wanna help the Absolute group. I don't think Wylle will take that as calmly as he did when I said I would help them. With tension and hostility this high, I expect companions to stand their ground more on certain topics. For example, why does Shadowheart have a problem with Laezal when I recruit Shadowheart at the camp but doesn't have one when I recruit Shadow Heart at the entrance of the ruins first? Just a little inconsistency to me.



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I agree with you 100%. And so do most people I think. Many fan favorite and memorable characters in fiction are the ones who are a bit prickly.

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It’s D&D. Most people are jerks, the ones that seem nice are usually the ones you want to watch out for (poison dagger to the back).

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Something Ive pointed out before is not saying "Can I narratively justify this?". You could very easily justify them being super nice because youll all die if you dont work together. Do NOT go off of justification, its too easy to do for whatever thing you want.

Ask what is fun while still making sense. What gives the player the best time? I am a DM of 15 campaigns, 40 players, thousands of hours, years of doing so. I can tell you right now, if this was a party at a D&D table theyd have quit the campaign. If I made all the NPCs like this, theyd have quit the campaign. In a game, the NPCs themselves are puzzles to solve so you make them harder to reach, less accessible and unlock. There is a difference between personality and person, though. A personality is someone who has thoughts and you can interact with. They can be a horrible evil monster but will still tell your zipper is down on your pants. So, to humanize these people, if you want to leave them spicy, there need to be other normal interactions where you get thoughts, feelings, hopes, whatever. Simple as "I hope it doesnt rain today, my cloak got a hole in it that last fight". Then in the morning its a downpour and you hear them grumbling occassionally.

Its stuff like that so you dont get 2 sentences from them per long rest, and both are abrasive. Need a ratio in there at some point. and again.

Is this the most fun we can be offering people while maintaining integrity to character concept and "gamification" of knowing them.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Im not against then but I can understand a different array of Roleplay and player profile being against it as in character motives.
Lets say for example a Paladin, a Paladin of Kelemvor so we can have this grey morality present in their order (I remember back in 3.5 times where the Kelemvor order had both Blackguards and Paladins, they would probably disagree in the force necessary to enforce their god wishes but they were still together in this).
Ok we put this fella in party with a necromancer, what you think would happen? Lets make even better what would happen if you put a blackguard of Kelemvor in this party with the necromancer, just for the sake of having two evil characters together.

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Originally Posted by Orbax
Something Ive pointed out before is not saying "Can I narratively justify this?". You could very easily justify them being super nice because youll all die if you dont work together. Do NOT go off of justification, its too easy to do for whatever thing you want.

Ask what is fun while still making sense. What gives the player the best time? I am a DM of 15 campaigns, 40 players, thousands of hours, years of doing so. I can tell you right now, if this was a party at a D&D table theyd have quit the campaign. If I made all the NPCs like this, theyd have quit the campaign. In a game, the NPCs themselves are puzzles to solve so you make them harder to reach, less accessible and unlock. There is a difference between personality and person, though. A personality is someone who has thoughts and you can interact with. They can be a horrible evil monster but will still tell your zipper is down on your pants. So, to humanize these people, if you want to leave them spicy, there need to be other normal interactions where you get thoughts, feelings, hopes, whatever. Simple as "I hope it doesnt rain today, my cloak got a hole in it that last fight". Then in the morning its a downpour and you hear them grumbling occassionally.
.



I actually agree with you. More interaction and "normalcy" would be a nice touch. Astarion complaining about the environment of camp more. Maybe Laezal helping set up camp while complaining that we lesser races don't know how to properly set up camp etc. I think this would add a lot more life to it.

I will say though that I am having fun with these companions and NPCs. The dice roll gets my heart racing. Though maybe it is because I'm heavily a single player and want to interact with these characters and not part of a group that wants to have fun together facing the odds. There is a lack of comical DnD humour so far or even the standard Larion humour in general except for a few instances.

Last edited by SecondAchaius; 09/10/20 05:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by SecondAchaius

Astarion is obviously in the evil/neutral area but he was a thrall for vampires. He has lived with vampires. However, if you show him decency and trust he shows a very loyal side to him that seems almost good. He earnestly thanks you for letting you feed.


Um, no, he didn't. I trusted him, he promised to take only a sip, and as a result he sucked me dry and killed me. When I confronted him after being resurrected I got a flippant answer. Needless to say, I won't bother talking to him again - fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

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Originally Posted by SecondAchaius
Originally Posted by Orbax
Something Ive pointed out before is not saying "Can I narratively justify this?". You could very easily justify them being super nice because youll all die if you dont work together. Do NOT go off of justification, its too easy to do for whatever thing you want.

Ask what is fun while still making sense. What gives the player the best time? I am a DM of 15 campaigns, 40 players, thousands of hours, years of doing so. I can tell you right now, if this was a party at a D&D table theyd have quit the campaign. If I made all the NPCs like this, theyd have quit the campaign. In a game, the NPCs themselves are puzzles to solve so you make them harder to reach, less accessible and unlock. There is a difference between personality and person, though. A personality is someone who has thoughts and you can interact with. They can be a horrible evil monster but will still tell your zipper is down on your pants. So, to humanize these people, if you want to leave them spicy, there need to be other normal interactions where you get thoughts, feelings, hopes, whatever. Simple as "I hope it doesnt rain today, my cloak got a hole in it that last fight". Then in the morning its a downpour and you hear them grumbling occassionally.
.



I actually agree with you. More interaction and "normalcy" would be a nice touch. Astarion complaining about the environment of camp more. Maybe Laezal helping set up camp while complaining that we lesser races don't know how to properly set up camp etc. I think this would add a lot more life to it.

I will say though that I am having fun with these companions and NPCs. The dice roll gets my heart racing. Though maybe it is because I'm heavily a single player and want to interact with these characters and not part of a group that wants to have fun together facing the odds. There is a lack of comical DnD humour so far or even the standard Larion humour in general except for a few instances.


I reloaded a *lot* to go through all possible conversation trees with them to see what they all did. The problem, like you said, is a weighting towards normalcy. Right now most options do not increase, but might decrease, your rep and with me rolling 8,2,4,2,1,6,4, 10, 4,6 before I got the 15 DC - pretty consistent experience based on the hours in the loading screen ive done - to only have the follow up, seemingly innocuous choice having one of them start screaming at you that they will kill you in your sleep for that...

Im on good footing with all of them now that ive done some quests and made decisions theyve liked and persuaded them to open up a bit and also been the cool "yeah man, you worship the devil, cool, tell me more" guy. However, I am concerned with wanting to actually RP a character and choose as they would and my party would be me and the mage right now in that case. I like the Mass Effect style companion unlocks when you get trusted but right now it feels like youre doing a Cliffhanger hand hold over a chasm trying to make them not open your neck up in your sleep lol


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by Nimue_de
Originally Posted by SecondAchaius

Astarion is obviously in the evil/neutral area but he was a thrall for vampires. He has lived with vampires. However, if you show him decency and trust he shows a very loyal side to him that seems almost good. He earnestly thanks you for letting you feed.


Um, no, he didn't. I trusted him, he promised to take only a sip, and as a result he sucked me dry and killed me. When I confronted him after being resurrected I got a flippant answer. Needless to say, I won't bother talking to him again - fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.



I did not fail that persuasion check. I got a very different side to that.

Last edited by SecondAchaius; 09/10/20 05:17 PM.
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I'm really wondering what dialogue options people are taking to complain so much about NPCs/companions being abrasive and annoying.

I feel like I missed something, because I'm not getting any of that.

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Originally Posted by azarhal
I'm really wondering what dialogue options people are taking to complain so much about NPCs/companions being abrasive and annoying.

I feel like I missed something, because I'm not getting any of that.




I've been luckily doing well with some of my rolls in conversations. A lot seem to require charisma or wisdom and as a Cleric I got that WIS. So Shadowheart and Astarion convos went well, but Gale and Laez have had ups and downs.

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The plot so far was simply brilliant. When you see a druid murdering a child when you first meet the sad druid, you immediately understand that this is not a cheesy Skyrim. Kudos to Larian for making children killable, I had to scramble with charm spell to figure own how to save that little thief.

Last edited by Choosen of KEK; 09/10/20 05:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by SecondAchaius
Originally Posted by azarhal
I'm really wondering what dialogue options people are taking to complain so much about NPCs/companions being abrasive and annoying.

I feel like I missed something, because I'm not getting any of that.


I've been luckily doing well with some of my rolls in conversations. A lot seem to require charisma or wisdom and as a Cleric I got that WIS. So Shadowheart and Astarion convos went well, but Gale and Laez have had ups and downs.


So maybe my problem is that I'm not trying to pry into their personal life if they tell me no the first time (which has no DC). But then I failed a DC with Gale and his answer was just a dismissive ("it's secret") which is not abrasive.

Could it be the characters are abrasive because the PC is being annoying to them by asking all those questions when their approval aren't high enough?

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Originally Posted by azarhal
Originally Posted by SecondAchaius
Originally Posted by azarhal
I'm really wondering what dialogue options people are taking to complain so much about NPCs/companions being abrasive and annoying.

I feel like I missed something, because I'm not getting any of that.


I've been luckily doing well with some of my rolls in conversations. A lot seem to require charisma or wisdom and as a Cleric I got that WIS. So Shadowheart and Astarion convos went well, but Gale and Laez have had ups and downs.


So maybe my problem is that I'm not trying to pry into their personal life if they tell me no the first time (which has no DC). But then I failed a DC with Gale and his answer was just a dismissive ("it's secret") which is not abrasive.

Could it be the characters are abrasive because the PC is being annoying to them by asking all those questions when their approval aren't high enough?


Maybe? They really don't like it when you pry and Gale is more of a good character. So I'm guessing the more aggressive characters are a bit more aggressive when it comes to a failed DC in talking to them.

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The problem as I see it is that the game is still allowing you to "game" the system just like in Dragon Age. Doesn't matter what the characters personality is, as long as you are helpful to them they "like" you and become more likeable because of it. I think most are not gaming the system and so not finding the companions likeable as they are used to playing more good aligned characters. Also, Lots of folks obviously didn't get the memo that this is an evil party and they are finding it surprising or frustrating having to deal with companions that immediately give off a jerky vibe.

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How you deal with evil? Smite then, they can't be evil if they don't move anymore. Just need the Paladin patch release :v

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Originally Posted by Takamori
How you deal with evil? Smite then, they can't be evil if they don't move anymore. Just need the Paladin patch release :v


Solo Paladin runs on the way LMAO

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To my earlier point is a thought experiment party where we distinguish personality and the person

Paladin of Bahamut
Alignment: LG
Personality: Hitler
Person: Very devout, humble, wants the best for everyone. Believes that Bahamut has tasked him with protecting you, will do so at any opportunity be it someone not giving you a seat at the bar or a zombie t-rex about to clamp down own you where he will throw himself into its jaws.

Vampire Thrall
Alignment: LE
Personality: Steve Irwin
Person: Life! Everything is about life! Its so interesting and fantastic and we are all so lucky to be able to experience it! Sorry, one second *drains a kid dry* He was poor anyway...anyway what was I saying...oh crikey look at that little delicate bug, its probably taking care of its babies right now, isnt that heartwarming *starts crying, tears burn his cheeks*.

Erudite Wizard of Abjuration
Alignment: CN
Personality: Donald Trump
Person: *extremely intelligent and well read*. Loves a good debate. Given good facts and logic delights in having his mind changed because truth is the highest good. Strong opinions and rarely backs down. If someone is getting hurt, wont go out of his way. Justice...not really his thing.

You can see how having them in your party would be hard to have conversations with, would make them have hard conversations outside the group - and between each other - and where you might have some conflict on how you treat them between liking them and liking what they do.

right now its just kind a straight line through the whole thing and pretty 1 dimensional


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by vyvexthorne
The problem as I see it is that the game is still allowing you to "game" the system just like in Dragon Age. Doesn't matter what the characters personality is, as long as you are helpful to them they "like" you and become more likeable because of it. I think most are not gaming the system and so not finding the companions likeable as they are used to playing more good aligned characters. Also, Lots of folks obviously didn't get the memo that this is an evil party and they are finding it surprising or frustrating having to deal with companions that immediately give off a jerky vibe.


It's more than just that; most complainers don't know how to communicate properly, to observe the mood and mindset before picking a line that shouldn't be picked. There is a right time and can't just ask or say anything, just because that option is there.

Some NPC's will react badly no matter what, but many will have a different reaction if you have the right background, stats, you do the right thing and are picking the right lines when the time is right.

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Originally Posted by Orbax
Something Ive pointed out before is not saying "Can I narratively justify this?". You could very easily justify them being super nice because youll all die if you dont work together. Do NOT go off of justification, its too easy to do for whatever thing you want.

Ask what is fun while still making sense.
.


Originally I was going to quote more,..but "ask what is fun" is the point.

To answer the original question /thread title, no it's NOT the alignment that is the problem. It is that the characters are mostly unpleasant to deal with. That is two very different things.

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