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Originally Posted by Dez
However - I do prefer if my games stay true to whichever universe they are representing. This is personally more important to me than the characters matching my personal preferences and liking. *BG3 takes place in FR* and hence I'd imagine that the players should AT THE VERY LEAST have the option to look like the elves described in the handbooks and lore, and OP (and Ragitsu) are correct regarding the faces - most elven faces in BG3 do not strike me at all as "elven." Not by the "general" standard, but also (and much more importantly) not by the FR meta standard neither. ESPECIALLY the male ones. The female faces I can at least sorta accept (at least 3 of them) - but some more traditional elven features, even if it is very subtle hints like just tuning the cheekbones, give them a more triangular jaw and/or some sharper lines.

This +1 Elves/all races should be represented more twords FR and D&D.

Last edited by fallenj; 20/08/21 02:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dez
However - I do prefer if my games stay true to whichever universe they are representing. This is personally more important to me than the characters matching my personal preferences and liking.

Absolutely!

I too was introduced to elves in Tolkien, and those laughing wood-elves versus the sorrowful Lothlorian elves…how I wish that could have been pulled off a teensy bit in the films! That would have been so good. Thinking if Elrond saying “Mr. Anderson”… lol

Dragon Age is an interesting example of consistency. They had very human looking elves that were considered very beautiful by other races in DAO. Then in DA2…baam…very non human looking at all, with much more exaggerated features. But then, I always assumed it was a limitation of the old DAO engine. And at leadt they were still considered beautiful in the game world despite the design change. They also changed their accents from this almost native american vocal structure in DAO to…Irish? In DA2. I chalked that up to the fact that these were Free Marcher Dalish but…it was a glaring difference to me that made internal consistency a little wobbly.

In BG3, my frustration is that elven and half elven faces are much too similar. Human face with elf ears for a half elf? Fine. The only difference for elves being slightly bigger ears than half elf? C’mon! I wish they would at least add more elven faces tgat are more true to FR.

But as with so many things…mods will give options eventually.

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Originally Posted by Dez
I do hope the "everything gotta be morally grey"-segment disappears soon. I absolutely hate it in RPGs. Most of the times the writing comes off as anything but clever and intriguing when they try way too hard to make all choices "neutral" or "lesser of X evils."

On the "pencil-and-paper" RPG front, we may be entering a period of transformation somewhat similar to the one the comic books industry experienced roughly two decades ago. There came a time when people had enough of the dark nineties anti-hero who was frequently little better than the villains they struggled against. Maybe folks delving into classic fantasy worlds will get tired of palling around with demons and devils (fiends in general, really) in the quest for power?

Originally Posted by Dez
Also, completely off topic (and I apologize for that, but this is IMPORTANT) - I adore your avatar. It goes so well with your way of arguing. Absolutely made my day.

Thank you kindly. I've had the picture for a while now, although I hadn't revisited it until late. On the spur of the moment, I decided to repurpose the sly mage for avatar duty. I can't say that I'll retain his services for the remainder of my time here, but if he serves me well...who knows?

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Check out the elves ->

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I also admit I'm not too terribly fond of some of the features of the elven faces, particularly on males. There's one or two decent ones, though one of them seems to work better with drow tones vs. lighter tones for the other elves. The jaws in particular are obscenely wide for a typical elf design, and it really stands out in a bad way when comparing to half elf faces.

Not to say they should be gotten rid of entirely, as I'm sure there are those who enjoy them greatly. But adding more variety, or even adjusting half elf heads to work for elves as well, would be much appreciated. Currently I have one drow I'm happy with, but the other I made with a half-elf base simply because I didn't like any other faces available in the elven options.

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Originally Posted by MarbleNest
I also admit I'm not too terribly fond of some of the features of the elven faces, particularly on males. There's one or two decent ones, though one of them seems to work better with drow tones vs. lighter tones for the other elves. The jaws in particular are obscenely wide for a typical elf design, and it really stands out in a bad way when comparing to half elf faces.

Not to say they should be gotten rid of entirely, as I'm sure there are those who enjoy them greatly. But adding more variety, or even adjusting half elf heads to work for elves as well, would be much appreciated. Currently I have one drow I'm happy with, but the other I made with a half-elf base simply because I didn't like any other faces available in the elven options.

And the human heads then? it's like they turned on the random generator for heads like those mmos with sliders and added the results in their CC. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same with the elves, their heads, asides from number 4 in my opinion simply doesn't look elvish at all, it's just another human head in a small different shape.

I hope they don't go the Bioware way and many new games where nonsensical and ugly models is what they think it's "natural"

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Originally Posted by Avallonkao
And the human heads then? it's like they turned on the random generator for heads like those mmos with sliders and added the results in their CC. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same with the elves, their heads, asides from number 4 in my opinion simply doesn't look elvish at all, it's just another human head in a small different shape.

I hope they don't go the Bioware way and many new games where nonsensical and ugly models is what they think it's "natural"

I can't comment too much on the human heads, since I haven't really played a human yet! I remember looking through the female faces once, and found some of them a bit too... "old" I guess? But they weren't particularly bad I suppose. However, this was right as I bought the game, so my memory isn't super great for it.

In general, I feel some additional face options might go a long way for most races - tieflings included. There's only 1 male tiefling face I like all that much, and I still have major problems with the way the face is built just from an aesthetics point of view. It's prevented me from playing a tiefling thus far, despite them being my second favorite race after drow.

Last edited by MarbleNest; 25/08/21 12:52 PM.
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It's so strange how the drow were done more justice than "ordinary" elves.

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
It's so strange how the drow were done more justice than "ordinary" elves.


Drows and Elves share the same heads

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Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
It's so strange how the drow were done more justice than "ordinary" elves.


Drows and Elves share the same heads

Drow are elves. Still...perhaps it's all the ultraviolet radiation they avoid grin?

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
It's so strange how the drow were done more justice than "ordinary" elves.


Drows and Elves share the same heads

Drow are elves. Still...perhaps it's all the ultraviolet radiation they avoid grin?

I think perhaps it's simply that some of the head models look better with the darker or more ashen skin tones drow can have, as opposed to the lighter values for the other three types of elves.

I know the face option with more Asian features seems to look better to me with dark drow tones than with lighter tones - not because the face itself is bad by any means, but just... I suppose it almost feels too "wide" compared to some of the half-elf faces? Like physically wide, jawline and head alike. But drow tones smooth that out a bit more, or at least seem to make it less apparent.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

An example using my main drow character. Of course, angles and lighting help as well, but I've tried a lighter-skinned elf with that face and it was just somehow... off, I guess?

Last edited by MarbleNest; 26/08/21 03:26 AM.
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Originally Posted by MarbleNest
An example using my main drow character. Of course, angles and lighting help as well, but I've tried a lighter-skinned elf with that face and it was just somehow... off, I guess?

MarbleNest, this design decision is something of a shame. Drow are not "palette swaps" of their surface cousins; a difference in height (and, therefore, proportions?), in particular, is one physical characteristic that distinguishes the former from the latter.

Drizzt and Kellindil - 1
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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by MarbleNest
An example using my main drow character. Of course, angles and lighting help as well, but I've tried a lighter-skinned elf with that face and it was just somehow... off, I guess?

MarbleNest, this design decision is something of a shame. Drow are not "palette swaps" of their surface cousins; a difference in height (and, therefore, proportions?), in particular, is one physical characteristic that distinguishes the former from the latter.

Drizzt and Kellindil - 1
Drizzt and Kellindil - 2

I'm... not quite sure what your point is or why this is relevant to the topic at hand? Nor what the comic pages serve to illustrate?

Just going off of your "they are not palette swaps" statement, the comics already discredit that - Drizzt is clearly different in appearance, skin and hair tone included, from the other elf.

Though even so, I'm just not really sure what point you were making here in response to me sharing my drow to illustrate how a certain face seems to look better when used with darker tones - be them the obsidian swatches available to drow, or simply the darker browns of elf and human.

If it's some personal issue with the tones I chose to use on him, well - that isn't really relevant to the greater topic regarding elven face options, and it also comes down to personal preference. I like those tones for the drow I typically play, though they can always be of lighter shades as well! This is just what I prefer for my own drow characters. smile

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It's pretty straight-forward, Drow scowl in disgust, Elves have an aloof sneer.

As for proportions, Drow should be what Elves would look like if they became underdwellers, so shorter, and perhaps even more wan. With that in mind Drow should be about Human height, but more wiry. And with D&D Elves being already the same height or shorter than Humans, Drow should be shorter than Humans.
I think the way I've usually thought about it, humans look life they evolved from primates, while Elves look like they were created to be beautiful, so much so that they become inhumanly beautiful. Like if you asked someone to draw a person but gave them a description of only the most attractive traits, it would look off.

Like someone mentioned, a pallid white is common for creatures that never expect to be viewed in the light, similar to the Drider art from the 3e monster manual(it's pretty rad). That being said, I believe Drow are dark skinned because of their accursed origin, so 'palette swap' isn't exactly a terrible way of describing it.

Last edited by Sozz; 28/08/21 09:19 PM.
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Originally Posted by MarbleNest
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by MarbleNest
An example using my main drow character. Of course, angles and lighting help as well, but I've tried a lighter-skinned elf with that face and it was just somehow... off, I guess?

MarbleNest, this design decision is something of a shame. Drow are not "palette swaps" of their surface cousins; a difference in height (and, therefore, proportions?), in particular, is one physical characteristic that distinguishes the former from the latter.

Drizzt and Kellindil - 1
Drizzt and Kellindil - 2

I'm... not quite sure what your point is or why this is relevant to the topic at hand? Nor what the comic pages serve to illustrate?

Just going off of your "they are not palette swaps" statement, the comics already discredit that - Drizzt is clearly different in appearance, skin and hair tone included, from the other elf.

Though even so, I'm just not really sure what point you were making here in response to me sharing my drow to illustrate how a certain face seems to look better when used with darker tones - be them the obsidian swatches available to drow, or simply the darker browns of elf and human.

If it's some personal issue with the tones I chose to use on him, well - that isn't really relevant to the greater topic regarding elven face options, and it also comes down to personal preference. I like those tones for the drow I typically play, though they can always be of lighter shades as well! This is just what I prefer for my own drow characters. smile

Oh. I wasn't trying to imply that you made that assertion; I was simply rebutting similar arguments before they were even made. Sorry for any potential confusion up.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
It's pretty straight-forward, Drow scowl in disgust, Elves have an aloof sneer.

Brilliant!

Originally Posted by Sozz
IAs for proportions, Drow should be what Elves would look like if they became underdwellers, so shorter, and perhaps even more wan. With that in mind Drow should be about Human height, but more wiry. And with D&D Elves being already the same height or shorter than Humans, Drow should be shorter than Humans.
I think the way I've usually thought about it, humans look life they evolved from primates, while Elves look like they were created to be beautiful, so much so that they become inhumanly beautiful. Like if you asked someone to draw a person but gave them a description of only the most attractive traits, it would look off.

Canon sources go back and forth on this, but there's at least one instance of drow being described as more attractive than ordinary elves, so...there's that.

--- --- ---

Anyhow, here are two more official examples of elves that appear elfin; the source is Dragonlance, but there's virtually no difference between their elves and those of the Realms.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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OP did it best in the first post as far as visual examples
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Hello Larian Team,

I hope this post finds the team well and I want to offer my congratulations on the efforts of your game designers and the dreams realised with the launch of Baldur's Gate 3 early access. I eagerly look forward to testing future editions of the title and seeing the studio's completed work in a year's time.

To this end, after viewing forum posts and opinions from the game's community, I wanted to more directly convey these player's and my own concerns regarding BG3's portrayal of Elves. Many testers have found the Elf faces off-putting and unrepresentative of the Elven race long time D&D players know and appreciate (And, in many cases, love to hate!). The technical quality of the faces Larian Studios has designed are superb even at this early stage, but their lack of authenticity specifically regarding the Elves has been a disappointment.

Narrower chins and jaws, shifted, widened and slanted eyes, high and prominent cheekbones, an unsettling, inhumanly haunting beauty about them; these qualities aren't being reflected as well as they could be. Tieflings have been brought to life like never before in the artistic medium of game design and I know many of the players and fans would approve of that same life and vivid creative design breathed into Elves.

Current head models don't and shouldn't need to be done away with entirely, but it's my feeling that a not insignificant number of the community would be more enticed to try a race like Elves if they had head model choices that were closer in authenticity to the original material. I hope this has given the team ideas to consider going forward and I would be pleased to correspond further about the matter.

The first piece of feedback that I would like to offer is that, interestingly enough, all of the half elf heads look more delicate and elven than the actual elven heads.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Many of us who have always have a soft spot for elves would be very happy if we could get at least a couple of heads that look more 'traditional', that is, less human and a little more like they belong to a different race. Elves are beautiful, yes, but key words in their description are often overlooked and not given much tought. They are not described as breath-taking, or captivating, although they might be. They are described with words such as unsettling, unnerving, haunting, when it comes to their beauty. This is no casual choice of wording, it clearly states elves are simply not meant to be or feel relatable.

This sketch perfectly examples the physiology of elves; the slanted eyes, triangular/heartshaped features, sharp noses and chins, and a general 'otherly' feel that is not relatable to any of the human heritages of our world.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]



One of the stances that I have encountered every so often when discussing this around the forums, is people claiming that '5E elves look just like humans in the official artwork', with none of the features that are known to older editions. I disagree with that not as an opinion but simply as a matter of fact, I've done the research around and gathered plenty of official artwork that still depicts these features, if not as prominent as it used to be:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

THIS IS ALL 5E OFFICIAL ARTWORK I gathered from the manuals. Many people act like they don't exist. You can still see the high cheekbones, the slanted eyes, the triangular shaped face, all of it is there, if not as extremely displayed as it used to in older editions. Yet none of the current heads look like this. I think we would be happy with a few heads that have this sort of traditional features, the slanted eyes per instance are entirely missing, not a single head has this key feature.

In case you do not genuinelly see the features, here you go:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Likewise, this kind of art is represented in the original Baldur's Gate games, as can be seen in Aerie's and Jaheira's portraits:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I would like for this topic to be open to discuss not just aesthetics and appeareance but also all things elven related. I have not delved into the game deeply enough to give feedback with full confidence yet, but I have had zero meaningful interactions as an elf in the world. The few 'elven' dialog choices that have popped up have been shallow and meaningless, whereas after a quick and short lived gameplay as a drow I was presented with a lot more options (which I was surprised of, very well done there, Larian.)

Elves are also described to be tight-knit as a race, something that manifests not just psychologically or emotionally but, literally, physically, through something known as communion. In short, it is an inborn ability to share experiences, feelings, emotions and dreams with other willing elves. While I do not expect such a mechanic to be adapted in the game -cool as it might be-, it does give a hint to just how important it is for elves to be around, and acknowledged by other elves. I expected to see some special interactions with Astarion and Shadowheart as an elf player, yet there were none. Astarion, vampire or not, simply did not have a single elven trait about him other than the mechanic stats and cantrips.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

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Do Elf PC's go into the trance/meditation instead of sleeping?


Read the fine print.
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Yes, an Elf PC and Astarion sit cross-legged on their mats when you do a long rest.

Though in a scene with Astarion you're shown lying down but the narrator says you are in a trance.

They also can't be put to sleep with spells, or if you've been duped into drinking a potion of sleep.

Last edited by Sozz; 28/08/21 07:56 AM.
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