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#686187 10/10/20 03:42 PM
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Combats in the first area around the crash site need to be tweaked. It is insanely difficult and the only way I've been able to make much progress is save scumming. I know low level D&D is supposed to be hard and I know that DOS2 made it easy to wander into areas that were too high level, but there just doesn't feel like there are many fights that are actually appropriate for low level characters here. Every fight should consume resources, but I shouldn't be fighting a war of attrition with my party members being downed multiple times in every combat.

There are also some combats that are just insanely unbalanced. The goblin windmill in particular. It's two wargs and 5 goblin archers that start with the high ground. This combat is not doable except by sheer luck, yet you wander into that area extremely early in the game.

Same with the 3 troll things in the wrecked house that expect you to have the mark of the absolute, yet you can conceivably reach the house before you would get the mark. I'm fine with the order of that scenario, even if it does feel a bit backwards. The main issue is that the fight is ridiculously unbalanced for characters that are only going to be level 2 or 3. And I know that there is a "trick" to it, but the fight often triggers before you ever even make it into the house and can spot it.

In an even earlier example, when you find Shadowheart banging on the door of the temple and she suggests going up the cliffs, the fight you end up having on top of the temple seems a bit too much for a completely fresh party. It's doable but just barely.

It's beyond challenging and verges on frustrating. And there doesn't seem to be much guidance in terms of what is appropriate for your level and what isn't. I mean, the refugee leader asks you to kill Kagha when you're like level 2 but Kagha is level 4 and that is completely unreasonable.

I am sure people will disagree, but I've played through the first area about a half dozen times with multiple different characters and even though I know where I am going and what I am doing, it still feels like I'm just barely making it out of fights.

I mean, even the ship has some of that imbalance. In two of my games I died at the helm because the mind flayer died and suddenly the level 5 dude is hunting me down before I can make it across the map. Also. that fight just feels weird because suddenly the guy who just put a tadpole in your eye is asking you to help him? It feels out of place.

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I having only slightly less trouble with the combat, for sure. I managed to avoid the three trolls until I was a suitable level, but I definitely agree that overall the fights are pushing you to the limit more than they probably should. Regarding the fight on the helm, based on the various thralls around the ship I'm assuming that the mindflayer thought you were a thrall like they were and incapable of disobeying.

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The issue for me is that every fight is balanced like DOS2 in that every single one can potentially cause a TPK. This is fine in Divinity, but in 5e every fight does not need to be so difficult. If this was an actual campaign of this difficulty, then this DM would have no players. They need to take a long hard look at whoever is in charge of encounter balance and remind them that this is a DnD game not a divinity one. (No problem with DOS2, it’s maybe my favourite game of all time, but if I play BG3 it should play like a 5e game.)

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You are absolutely correct about some of the combat situations, particularly if you don't find high ground and use sight lines, stealth and ranged attacks to nullify the enemy. Of course if you do that the enemy just stands around saying nasty things while you pop out, snipe and then hide again. Those troll things are ogres and they are challenge rating 2 by themselves. Challenge rating gives you and idea of encounter difficulty for a group of 4 PCs. Challenge rating 2 is a good challenge for 4 2nd level players, 3 ogres is a deadly encounter.. it's challenge rating 6. So when people are tactically beating it, generally speaking they are exploiting the terrain and AI stupidity to do so, in table top they would be very unlikely to survive, much like all the people having issues with combat.

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Originally Posted by hatfulofhollow
Combats in the first area around the crash site need to be tweaked. It is insanely difficult and the only way I've been able to make much progress is save scumming. I know low level D&D is supposed to be hard and I know that DOS2 made it easy to wander into areas that were too high level, but there just doesn't feel like there are many fights that are actually appropriate for low level characters here. Every fight should consume resources, but I shouldn't be fighting a war of attrition with my party members being downed multiple times in every combat.

There are also some combats that are just insanely unbalanced. The goblin windmill in particular. It's two wargs and 5 goblin archers that start with the high ground. This combat is not doable except by sheer luck, yet you wander into that area extremely early in the game.

Same with the 3 troll things in the wrecked house that expect you to have the mark of the absolute, yet you can conceivably reach the house before you would get the mark. I'm fine with the order of that scenario, even if it does feel a bit backwards. The main issue is that the fight is ridiculously unbalanced for characters that are only going to be level 2 or 3. And I know that there is a "trick" to it, but the fight often triggers before you ever even make it into the house and can spot it.

In an even earlier example, when you find Shadowheart banging on the door of the temple and she suggests going up the cliffs, the fight you end up having on top of the temple seems a bit too much for a completely fresh party. It's doable but just barely.

It's beyond challenging and verges on frustrating. And there doesn't seem to be much guidance in terms of what is appropriate for your level and what isn't. I mean, the refugee leader asks you to kill Kagha when you're like level 2 but Kagha is level 4 and that is completely unreasonable.

I am sure people will disagree, but I've played through the first area about a half dozen times with multiple different characters and even though I know where I am going and what I am doing, it still feels like I'm just barely making it out of fights.

I mean, even the ship has some of that imbalance. In two of my games I died at the helm because the mind flayer died and suddenly the level 5 dude is hunting me down before I can make it across the map. Also. that fight just feels weird because suddenly the guy who just put a tadpole in your eye is asking you to help him? It feels out of place.


The fights really aren't that difficult. I have yet to experience a party wipe on any of the early level fights. I'm not abusing long rest either. Without saying what you've tried its hard to figure out why you're having a ton of trouble because I've had the opposite experience. It most certainly isn't "beyond challenging" however.

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So far it seems like a lot of people are finding the combat really hard and others are finding it incredibly easy, with a smaller amount finding it satisfactory. I'd say that this shows that combat isn't balanced well just yet.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
So far it seems like a lot of people are finding the combat really hard and others are finding it incredibly easy, with a smaller amount finding it satisfactory. I'd say that this shows that combat isn't balanced well just yet.

Yeah, I am really nonplussed by experiences like those stated by the OP. I just made level three with my party and one character went down so far in all the battles fought (do to a pretty lucky strike at that). This game seems so easy at this point, I am about to start a new game and play it with just the main character (and maybe one companion if it's too tough).

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Personally i really enjoy the hard fights. Its causing me to tread carefully everywhere, treating the world as a potentially dangerous place. It makes the world come alive around me. It makes me think of how i should approach the next area.

Take the spidercave in the blighted village for instance, i got so caught up in the world (being terrified of spiders) that i was moving very slowly thought that and had shivers run up and down my spine. Yes, i died 50 times, and had to replay quite a few hours, but im absolutely enjoying it.

I do think, however that the level cap should be at least 5 for the first act. Some of the monsters in the underdark for instance just instantly wipes half my party without chance of retaliation. I also hit the cap about halfway through the act, which feels waaay too early.


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I kinda agree, I for the life of me cant beat 2 ettercaps and 2 phase spiders, The phase spiders rain exploding poison bombs on my party and for some reason seem unreachable by my ranged weapons. When it goes to combat its all the area of affect weapons that are annoying never played dnd with so many greneades and every ability having an effect on the ground

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The more I play this game I can see where OP is coming from.
Well I have not had trouble with any encounter before the druid village.
Some fights almost verge on impossible (depending on your party), if your do not abuse:

1) Jump disengage
2) Preposition your party before battle starts
3) Hiding
4) Ground effects
5) Statuses that render enemy useless - entangled, unconscious etc.
6) Line of sight


I encountered the githyanki patrol on my second playthrough with a more squishy party - I didnt even get a turn because everybody was dead before I could act.
I was able to do it, by positioning properly before the fight, and using hiding effectively but as OP said I just barely scrapped by (three characters still died).

I think the end note here is that encounters should be doable without me feel like I exploited the game to get past them.




Bray #686374 10/10/20 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Bray
The more I play this game I can see where OP is coming from.
Well I have not had trouble with any encounter before the druid village.
Some fights almost verge on impossible (depending on your party), if your do not abuse:

1) Jump disengage
2) Preposition your party before battle starts
3) Hiding
4) Ground effects
5) Statuses that render enemy useless - entangled, unconscious etc.
6) Line of sight


I encountered the githyanki patrol on my second playthrough with a more squishy party - I didnt even get a turn because everybody was dead before I could act.
I was able to do it, by positioning properly before the fight, and using hiding effectively but as OP said I just barely scrapped by (three characters still died).

I think the end note here is that encounters should be doable without me feel like I exploited the game to get past them.





Having read this I think I realized why I'm having trouble and so many other people aren't; I'm trying to play this game like it's normal D&D. I'm not picking up and throwing barrels, using jump a lot, stuff like that, whereas I feel like other people are using the game mechanics as given and are getting their heads around it faster.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost


Having read this I think I realized why I'm having trouble and so many other people aren't; I'm trying to play this game like it's normal D&D. I'm not picking up and throwing barrels, using jump a lot, stuff like that, whereas I feel like other people are using the game mechanics as given and are getting their heads around it faster.

Neither am I. I long-rested twice (mostly recently just before reaching level three). I don't throw things or use/target barrels. Am I getting lucky rolls? Others getting unlucky rolls?

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If you just made it to lv three you havent reached any hard fights yet.

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It was a little bit challenging at the beginning, then it got less so; whether that was because I was getting the hang of it or because I had more party members, not sure. The area where I am having real trouble is the goblin camp (won't say what mission to avoid spoilers).

I would like to see two actions per turn - even if it allows only one of them to be spell actions. One action seems crippling. My party's actions miss so often, and it seems my opponent's actions don't miss very often, which is highly frustrating. (and deadly).

Just generally I feel like the enemies have an unfair advantage in terms of movement, hit likelihood, etc. This is most obvious when the numbers are in their favor, which is exactly when they already have the advantage.

I would like to see a party of 5 or 6. That would be helpful especially if the actions stay limited to one.

Targeting should be by clicking on a portrait. If I am trying to protect or heal a party member it can be hard to find the right companion in battles with lots of enemies.

If there is a way to sort or change the order of spells and items on the hot bar, it hasn't been made clear. There are certain spells I use often and they can be hard to find. I suppose as I play more I will recognize the icons but even then it would be handy to be able to sort.

I have found that sometimes attackers are out of my sight range even if I zoom out as far as possible, or I can just barely see the front of their ring. Yet somehow they can still attack and damage me, but I can't retaliate because I can't get them in view. This is usually if they are in an elevated position (on a roof, up on a balcony, etc.)

Finally, a way to reduce the difficulty (or raise it if you want) needs to be available.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I was so frustrated by the goblin camp that I created two more characters and started over again. I just couldn't look at that map again.

Last edited by Suzanne2020; 10/10/20 05:49 PM. Reason: added/changed text
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Originally Posted by Plunkett
The issue for me is that every fight is balanced like DOS2 in that every single one can potentially cause a TPK. This is fine in Divinity, but in 5e every fight does not need to be so difficult. If this was an actual campaign of this difficulty, then this DM would have no players. They need to take a long hard look at whoever is in charge of encounter balance and remind them that this is a DnD game not a divinity one. (No problem with DOS2, it’s maybe my favourite game of all time, but if I play BG3 it should play like a 5e game.)


This.

If a DM in an actual D&D table built fights the way they do in Divinity, nobody would play at their table. 5e was formulated around simplifying the game and encourage more time for roleplaying rather than a wargame simulation.

I understand the temptation to do things like Divinity, but I hope that they can add a mode that goes away from that. Every fight feels like a DM who is having way too much fun trying to kill his/her players.

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I'm in favor of the following difficulty curve:

Easy - Don't really need to know the mechanics, point and click on enemies being roughly enough to complete the game.
Medium - Don't need to know the mechanics to start, but need to be able to pick up on the major ones throughout the initial tutorial and first Act (how Advantage works, how to get AC to stop attacks, using roughly the appropriate Spell for a given situation)
Hard - Need to know the Mechanics even at the start. Have to have mastered the combat mechanics (maximizing Action Economy, using synergy between party members skills/spells, minimizing enemy advantages by using Stealth and positioning).
Insane - Full Mastery of the mechanics and awareness of which ones are overpowered/abusable. Always using the exact right spell at the right time. Likely requires having played through the game on a lower difficulty to know enemy positions ahead of time, what spells and abilities the enemy will use, etc.

The problem is that most people expect an average difficulty of a game to be Medium. Larian has more or less said (from what others have posted and based on their DoS 2 EA) that they set their early access difficulty to be at roughly Hard. This is to get data on which fights might be easier or harder than intended.

Given Larian's intent for Early Access, I agree with the current difficulty curve. I have pretty close to a mastery of 5e mechanics, and while I have had some trouble due to Larian's changes to the rules, I haven't encountered a fight I thought was too difficult yet. If this was supposed to be Medium difficulty? Absolutely, too hard. But it's not, it's supposed to be a roughly Hard difficulty.

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I would be very surprised if there weren't plans to add difficulty modes with the full release at the latest. Both DOS games had them, and I don't see why Larian would move away from the concept. For early stages of EA it makes sense to start with only one difficulty level ("standard" or whatever you want to call it), since that's already going to take plenty of time to balance.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost

Having read this I think I realized why I'm having trouble and so many other people aren't; I'm trying to play this game like it's normal D&D. I'm not picking up and throwing barrels, using jump a lot, stuff like that, whereas I feel like other people are using the game mechanics as given and are getting their heads around it faster.


Well, it's basically how it works. Just like in DOS 2, combat is like a puzzle. You have to be creative to solve it and destroy all the enemies.

But I don't know what kind of D&D you have played, because usually GMs reward creativity and inspiration in combat more than anything else.

Some people wonder why there are so many empty barrels for example. You can build literal walls with them and lure your opponents into the confined space you have created.

And so yeah, now I understand better why most players find the combat either easy or hard. I guess you can see who played DOS 2 and who didn't in their answers.

Last edited by Nyanko; 10/10/20 06:48 PM.
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I think a lot of difficulty would be avoided with a 5th npc, but they need nore npcs anyway which I seirously doubt is going to happen

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Only issue I've had so far was just as I arrived in the Underdark. As soon as my feet touch the ground the minotaurs are aggroing and just straight up yeeting me away and killing me from damage + pushed away fall damage. Some encounters are hard for sure, but none of those seem quite unbalanced as this one right now.

Last edited by HeavensBells; 10/10/20 07:16 PM.
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