Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Oct 2020
member
OP Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Basically, what the headline says. In the Forgotten Realms worshipping a deity is a major thing, to the point that if you don't you basically get punished for eternity i the afterlife (I know, it sucks, I didn't make the rules!) and aside from that, it could and should in my opinion also be something that could come up in NPC conversations, even if it was just a few lines and options here and there.

Joined: Sep 2017
member
Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
I'm curious as I don't know much about this. Is there a 5e source for this?

Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
I half-agree: I think everyone should have an option to choose a deity. While atheism in this setting is rather silly, not every character is particularly religious. It's more about worship than belief. But yes, Clerics shouldn't be the only ones to be able to be devoted to a deity,

Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Well, everyone (almost) ARE worshiping a deity.
However that doesn't mean everyone should act like a zealose priests. Folks usually gives a prays to gods of their choice in privacy. And visit a shines only when it's comfortable for them.
And then of course there are entities that will never would worship anyone, like illithids or aboleths. Who think themself too good to worship any deity. And in case of aboleths, they also won't get punished in afterlife, as technically their lives never ends.

Joined: Oct 2020
C
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
C
Joined: Oct 2020
I'm alright with this, but then I want the option to NOT worship anything. Also, the deity thing is implied in a lot of the origin option you choose in character creation.

Joined: Oct 2020
O
stranger
Offline
stranger
O
Joined: Oct 2020
Yes!

The issue of players not familiar with forgotten realms can be solved with the well written small descriptions of dieties already in the character creation.
More unrealistic idea. Larian could actually put a "recommended" option based on race/class as they've done with stat allocations.

Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Redwyrm
And then of course there are entities that will never would worship anyone, like illithids or aboleths.


*adjusts nerd glasses* Ackchyully... illithids are in a way religious. They have their patron Ilsensine, and there's also an illithid deity of knowledge, Maanzecorian.

It would be pretty cool if the PC could convert to Ilsensine, haha. "I, for one, welcome our tentacled lord and saviour."

Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
agree

Joined: Oct 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
Decided I'd come around to say this and instead I'm bumping this. I'm thinking about what a bummer it is to be effectively agnostic because I'm not a Priest in Pillars of Eternity. It really kills roleplay when everyone else has deities and you have none.

Joined: Dec 2020
B
Banned
Offline
Banned
B
Joined: Dec 2020
Yes this should be a thing.
Also please add the elemental lords to be worshipable deities please.
Kossuth, lord of Fire -> this guy is a must, he has a HUGE, very organized and very influential church and he is also very involved in the prime material plane.
Akadi, lord of Air
Isisthia, lord of Water
Grumbar, lord of Earth

Also it's very weird how we have minor deities, but Lanthander didn't make the list, even though he has a huge following.

Last edited by Bruh; 02/01/21 06:12 PM.
Joined: Dec 2020
Location: CA
S
addict
Offline
addict
S
Joined: Dec 2020
Location: CA
Originally Posted by Uncle Lester
I half-agree: I think everyone should have an option to choose a deity. While atheism in this setting is rather silly, not every character is particularly religious. It's more about worship than belief. But yes, Clerics shouldn't be the only ones to be able to be devoted to a deity,

You can choose not to worship any god. At death you’ll end up on the Fugue? Wall. There you just slowly dissolve away into nothingness.

Obviously clerics must have a deity to worship since their power comes from gods.

I agree every character should have a choice. It’d be pretty awesome if your choice affects some dialogue.

Joined: Dec 2020
Location: CA
S
addict
Offline
addict
S
Joined: Dec 2020
Location: CA
Originally Posted by Bruh
Yes this should be a thing.
Also please add the elemental lords to be worshipable deities please.
Kossuth, lord of Fire -> this guy is a must, he has a HUGE, very organized and very influential church and he is also very involved in the prime material plane.
Akadi, lord of Air
Isisthia, lord of Water
Grumbar, lord of Earth

Also it's very weird how we have minor deities, but Lanthander didn't make the list, even though he has a huge following.

Missing Lathander is a bit odd since he’s definitely Light domain. Some gods I get since their domains are not available yet like Torm and war domain.

Joined: Mar 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Mar 2020
Originally Posted by dreambled
I'm curious as I don't know much about this. Is there a 5e source for this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Forgotten_...woods_twitter_replies_september_updated/

Greenwood -

Hi!

In the Realms, all sane sentient beings “believe” in the gods (= know they exist and affect the world), because they have seen avatars or divine servitor beings (e.g. aasimars, celestials) and/or see signs and spells from the gods and/or been shown dramatic evidence of past manifestations of divine power (e.g. a god blasting apart a mountain with magic “from the sky”) and/or seen priests work real, lasting magic through prayer to their deities.

So everyone in the Realms “believes” (they KNOW the gods are real). “Faith” has two real-world meanings: the collective one of “everyone who believes in this god or this pantheon or this creed” (clergy and lay worshippers), and “believing in a deity without hard proof” and therefore taking the existence of the deity “on faith.” In the Realms, the first meaning is widely used and understood, the second is not (why? See above).

“Worship” means doing as the god wants you to (or the god’s clergy tell you to), working to advance the aims of the god (which might even mean fighting on behalf of the god), and making offerings to the church (coins or items), and taking part in rituals and prayers.

In the Realms, everyone ‘believes in’ ALL of the gods, and although a lot of humans (priests, paladins, and lay worshippers) ‘specialize’ in one god (worshipping that one deity more than others), most sentient beings do at least a little worshipping of many deities: a merchant wanting business success would pray and give offerings to Waukeen, and if that merchant is shipping goods aboard on a ship, would also pray and give offerings to Umberlee to NOT sink the ship, and if that same merchant was trying to use new technology to make their goods faster or better or both, he or she would also pray and give offerings to Gond, and so on. So you can see that there’s a lot of ‘lip-service’ worship of deities by people who otherwise don’t care overmuch about that god or their faith. The gods want obedience AND worship because they gain power the more they are worshipped and have influence in the mortal world, so YES, they would count someone participating in celebration of one of their holy days as worship.

In the Realms, deities have portfolios, and Tempus is the god of war and warcraft, just as Mystra is the goddess of (arcane) magic. A mortal can be a great general or a powerful spellcaster without actively worshipping Tempus or Mystra, respectively. The deity will manipulate that mortal, and exploit that mortal’s achievements, to increase their divine influence. So, yes, they would still count the deeds of that mortal as worship—but they would also constantly send clergy AND dream-visions to that mortal to try to entice the mortal to “embrace” (openly worship) them.

Mortals aren’t required to like the creed or world-view of a deity (though the deity would prefer that they love the deity and the deity’s ways) so much as the deity wants them to obey (behave in certain ways), and donating coins to a temple is definitely worship.

And there are many mortals who respect the clergy, teachings, and deeds of a particular god, but don’t entrust their lives to the god, or formally dedicate their souls to that god or any god. Deities always want souls and lives dedicated to them if possible, but they’ll unhesitatingly take respect and the above-mentioned lip-service worship (including donating a few coins from time to time) as worship, even from a mortal who refuses to dedicate themselves. They will also tirelessly try to persuade that mortal to accept them more fully.

Hope this is of help!

I should add that the “dream visions” sent by gods to sleeping mortals often include the deity appearing to the mortal directly in their dreams, speaking to them (advice, commands, cryptic hints), and that all deities employ “manifestations” (glows or visible-to-all temporary images moving in the air, smells, and visitations by birds or creatures associated with the deity, etc.) of their favour or disfavour or interest, that awake people can see. These usually appear above altars during prayers, or at a spot where someone has just made or is making a sacrifice to the god (including sacrificing their mortal lives), but can also appear elsewhere, to convince or reassure non-believers or mortals who doubt what the right thing to do is.

Joined: Mar 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Mar 2020
And the wall of the faithless:



If those mortals never embrace any deity in life, when they final face Kelemvor in the City of Judgement, what fate will befall them?
Please forgive me for asking so many questions. The topic of Faithless has aroused considerable controversy among Chinese FR fans😅

— coolguy (@coolguy73360922) October 1, 2019

1)
There’s nothing to forgive! Ask all you like. Some answers will take longer, though, or even be blocked by the dreaded NDAs.
If a mortal doesn’t worship a specific deity in life, they are not Faithless. The Realms is 2)
…pantheistic, not monotheistic. If a mortal doesn’t worship ANY deities at any time in life, rejecting gods as not worthy of worship or as “not gods,” they ARE Faithless (Kelemvor judges), and their fate is to be bound into…#Realmslore

— Ed Greenwood (@TheEdVerse) October 1, 2019

3)
…the Wall of Faithless by a green mold that only binds Faithless into the wall. Over time, the soul of a Faithless dissolves into the Wall, and is lost forever.
However, demons steal souls from the Wall, dissolving the mold by 4)
…various means, and take them back to the Abyss (this is one way that demons propagate).
If a demon steals a soul from the Wall that any deity is interested in, for any reason, that deity may send servitor beings to battle the…#Realmslore

— Ed Greenwood (@TheEdVerse) October 1, 2019

5)
…demon and wrest the soul from it, giving that soul ‘another chance’ in a new body. This often happens to adventurers, or spellcasters who in life devise new spells, or anyone who does something creative and daring. They are 6)
…reborn into a new body and life, as the deity who ‘rescued’ them watches to see what they do in this new life. (Mortals provide the main source of entertainment for the gods.)
Kelemvor judges some souls to be False rather than…#Realmslore

— Ed Greenwood (@TheEdVerse) October 1, 2019

7)
…Faithless. These are the souls of mortals who deliberately betrayed deities after making a commitment to those deities. The False are punished for all eternity (which sometimes means forever, but in very rare cases means 8)
…until a deity sends servitors to ‘harvest’ them for a new life [again, another chance for the soul]. The severity of punishments fit the severity of the crimes against the deity during life, and vary from hideous tortures…#Realmslore

— Ed Greenwood (@TheEdVerse) October 1, 2019

9)
…that would result in death if done to a live mortal (like slow dismemberment), to attentively escorting and caring for visitors to Kelemvor’s City of Judgment that the soul in life would dislike or despise (e.g. due to family 10)
…or racial hatreds). Kelemvor himself has been known to (for unknown reasons) pluck certain souls away from the usual fates of his judgments, to serve him. Often they end up sent back into mortal life on missions, often in…#Realmslore

— Ed Greenwood (@TheEdVerse) October 1, 2019

11)
…bodies of a different race and/or gender than that of their previous life.#Realmslore

— Ed Greenwood (@TheEdVerse) October 1, 2019

Joined: Jun 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
Good lore, KillerRabbit, I was just debating going into depth on that and you've done a very good job of it already ^.^ Thanks!

I really think that players should have an option in character creation to choose whether they follow a particular deity or no specific deity, or even to declare as faithless if they wish. It should not be locked to just Clerics. As an added extra, it'll be worth remembering that Paladins are not bound to necessarily serve a particular deity any more, so Paladins should not be formally required to pick a deity any more than anyone else is.

Joined: Dec 2020
B
Banned
Offline
Banned
B
Joined: Dec 2020
Originally Posted by Niara
Good lore, KillerRabbit, I was just debating going into depth on that and you've done a very good job of it already ^.^ Thanks!

I really think that players should have an option in character creation to choose whether they follow a particular deity or no specific deity, or even to declare as faithless if they wish. It should not be locked to just Clerics. As an added extra, it'll be worth remembering that Paladins are not bound to necessarily serve a particular deity any more, so Paladins should not be formally required to pick a deity any more than anyone else is.
Well wouldn't paladins without a deity be just knights with a vow? Where would their divine powers come from?

Joined: Jun 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
The source of their power can vary. Regardless, it is canon that Paladins don't strictly need deities these days. I'd recommend having a read of the entry from the player's handbook.

Actually, to curtail argument, here, I'll just print it for you:

Originally Posted by Phb pp. 82-3
The Cause of Righteousness

A paladin swears to uphold justice and righteousness, to stand with the good things of the world against the encroaching darkness, and to hunt the forces of evil wherever they lurk. Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work. Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god.

Paladins train for years to learn the skills of combat, mastering a variety of weapons and armor. Even so, their martial skills are secondary to the magical power they wield: power to heal the sick and injured, to smite the wicked and the undead, and to protect the innocent and those who join them in the fight for justice.

Beyond the Mundane Life

Almost by definition, the life of a paladin is an adventuring life. Unless a lasting injury has taken him or her away from adventuring for a time, every paladin lives on the front lines of the cosmic struggle against evil. Fighters are rare enough among the ranks of the militias and armies of the world, but even fewer people can claim the true calling of a paladin. When they do receive the call, these warriors turn from their former occupations and take up arms to fight evil. Sometimes their oaths lead them into the service of the crown as leaders of elite groups of knights, but even then their loyalty is first to the cause of righteousness, not to crown and country.

Adventuring paladins take their work seriously. A delve into an ancient ruin or dusty crypt can be a quest driven by a higher purpose than the acquisition of treasure. Evil lurks in dungeons and primeval forests, and even the smallest victory against it can tilt the cosmic balance away from oblivion.

Creating a Paladin

The most important aspect of a paladin character is the nature of his or her holy quest. Although the class features related to your oath don’t appear until you reach 3rd level, plan ahead for that choice by reading the oath descriptions at the end of the class. Are you a devoted servant of good, loyal to the gods of justice and honor, a holy knight in shining armor venturing forth to smite evil? Are you a glorious champion of the light, cherishing everything beautiful that stands against the shadow, a knight whose oath descends from traditions older than many of the gods? Or are you an embittered loner sworn to take vengeance on those who have done great evil, sent as an angel of death by the gods or driven by your need for revenge? Appendix B lists many deities worshiped by paladins throughout the multiverse, such as Torm, Tyr, Heironeous, Paladine, Kiri-Jolith, Dol Arrah, the Silver Flame, Bahamut, Athena, Re-Horakhty, and Heimdall.

How did you experience your call to serve as a paladin? Did you hear a whisper from an unseen god or angel while you were at prayer? Did another paladin sense the potential within you and decide to train you as a squire? Or did some terrible event — the destruction of your home, perhaps — drive you to your quests? Perhaps you stumbled into a sacred grove or a hidden elven enclave and found yourself called to protect all such refuges of goodness and beauty. Or you might have known from your earliest memories that the paladin’s life was your calling, almost as if you had been sent into the world with that purpose stamped on your soul.

As guardians against the forces of wickedness, paladins are rarely of any evil alignment. Most of them walk the paths of charity and justice. Consider how your alignment colors the way you pursue your holy quest and the manner in which you conduct yourself before gods and mortals. Your oath and alignment might be in harmony, or your oath might represent standards of behavior that you have not yet attained.

Gods feature frequently and often in Paladin stories, but it is only a 'Many do' situation now; their power comes from their commitment and their dedication to an oath or cause, or to their vision of righteousness. Deities need not be involved any more. Their power is a divine power, certainly, but in many cases it is pure divine force, not tethered to or channeled through a particular deity.

Last edited by Niara; 02/01/21 11:16 PM.
Joined: Dec 2020
Location: CA
S
addict
Offline
addict
S
Joined: Dec 2020
Location: CA
Originally Posted by Niara
The source of their power can vary. Regardless, it is canon that Paladins don't strictly need deities these days. I'd recommend having a read of the entry from the player's handbook.

Gods feature frequently and often in Paladin stories, but it is only a 'Many do' situation now; their power comes from their commitment and their dedication to an oath or cause, or to their vision of righteousness. Deities need not be involved any more. Their power is a divine power, certainly, but in many cases it is pure divine force, not tethered to or channeled through a particular deity.

I’d argue it depends upon the world setting. In Eberron, the gods are almost abstract concepts. So paladins don’t need a clear divine source.

Forgotten Realms, the gods are very much real and do provide divine powers. I don’t see how a paladin in FR could have powers without a god providing their powers.

Joined: Dec 2020
B
Banned
Offline
Banned
B
Joined: Dec 2020
Personally this makes absolutely zero sense to me. A paladin who is devolted to the ideal of justice is de-facto devoted to Tyr, even if it's not made explicit.
In order to make this work he would have to explicitly renounce the gods which would make it impossible for him to be devoted to justice, because he does so unilaterally without giving the gods their due, as such, a paladin devoted to justice without paying his due to the deity that makes justice a thing is an oxymoron, because that would be unjust.
If a paladin is dedicated to something that is included in the porfolio of a deity, then the paladin serves the cause of that deity and as such he serves that deity as well. All divine powers must also come from that deity then.

Last edited by Bruh; 02/01/21 11:35 PM.
Joined: Dec 2020
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Dec 2020
Th small things that add to immersion/roleplay is important.

Having a diety choice for all PCs so it triggers the dialogues and just, more building characters is important. If the triggers are already there for clerics, it makes sense to open them up to all characters (espec as the second(1st do we count prologue?) NPC you can recruit, is cleric).
It's a dnd thing too. To have all the values for roleplaying, not just the ones mechanically relevant.

Should definetly have all the clerics goods + a non observant option
Even if it doesn't trigger the deity choice dialogues it ought still be there for RP

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5