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Would like to see this happen, as long as they add in all the possible deities first.

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Originally Posted by alexjuiceman
+1 for Patron Deity options for all, with none as an option, Faithless as a specifically anti deities option would be interesting as well.

Faithless is the none option in Faerun. It's one thing to not worship any god but you basically can't deny the existence of gods when they actively involve themselves in the affairs of mortals.

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Tell that to Gann of Dreams he pretty much outright denies the existence of deities but than you have the other side that thinks it is a waste of time to worship any deity Warlocks most often think this way because they deal with outsiders why worship them when you can make a deal with them?


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Originally Posted by TheInfinitySock
Tell that to Gann of Dreams he pretty much outright denies the existence of deities but than you have the other side that thinks it is a waste of time to worship any deity Warlocks most often think this way because they deal with outsiders why worship them when you can make a deal with them?

Just a cursory search on Google (since it's been forever since I touched NWN2) tells me Gann doesn't respect or worship gods because they are not worthy of it, which makes him Faithless. As I said, in Faerun, gods are very real. To deny that would make you delusional in that world. The setting does not allow any other reasoning.

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I do agree with you it is very delusional for people not to believe in deities in Faerun but people can be very delusional which is why the wall of the faithless exists
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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Bufotenina
From the roleplaying point of view the agnostic or atheist option has immense potential: the middle age set that is the base for D&D implies that being doubtful about deities or explicity don't believe in them is something anyone would dare to think to be open with.

To see how the various believers react to [agnostic]/[atheist] dialogue lines would be interesting.

But just like some remarks from the banned one it could be a very inflamatory and divisive material. So I think it's best to follow the rules (also because there are some interesting deities in DnD, and the variety of them allows to really surprising character backgrounds).

I do agree with the user that stated that for specific races, like Drows or Thieflings, there should be the "recommended" deity to follow.

Keep in mind that atheism doesn't have the same meaning in the realms as it does in our world. There isn't anyone who doubts in the existence of the gods, or who doesn't believe in them, any more than there are people who do not believe that rocks fall downwards when dropper, or that the sky looks blue on clear days. They are a known, quantifiable fact of the world, and only the deblitatingly insane do not believe in them. It would be like not believing that cows exist, when you can go to market and see them in front of you. There is no doubt and no question here; it is overtly true and everyone knows it.

Rather, in the realms, atheists are people who, for whatever reason, do not believe that any of the gods are worthy of giving thanks, acts or deeds towards; that none are worth respect or worship, and who makes an active choice not to do so, and also (and this matters), to deny the gods any claim to their deeds and actions. There are no casual atheists; even people who don't actively worship a particular god still know, as factual truth, that they exist and that they have power; a farmer may politely ask Chauntea for good favour when sowing crops, or thank her for a good harvest, but that farmer doesn't actively worship her in any direct way... it's still sufficient. Even people who live their lives and never really think about the gods will generally still act in ways that some deities can take as worthy action. Being an atheist is something you've really got to dedicate yourself to, ironically, more than passively acknowledging various deities well enough to keep yourself out of The Wall of the Faithless, which is where all dedicated atheists end up. It's not nice.

Not to say that it shouldn't be an option, but it's a big, big deal, because it means a lot more than it does in our world.

A very big flaw in my argument the fact that I didn't take account of the fact that in Faerun deities show their presence that is for an atheist or agnostic there is full of actual facts that prove the existence of gods, that means that our vision of atheism and agnosticism can not be translated do a DnD world.

Nevertheless I think that the "no deity" option should be there, because, in my opinion, there could be people in Faerun that believe the sentient races of Faerun should be free from the interference of the gods, that if wars (intra or inter races) have to be it has to be because the various race factions decide to go to war and not because a plot from some deity, that if someone has to excel in some activity it has to be because their effort and talent and not because they paid a god, and so on, again I'm thinking about the value from a roleplaying point of view, such a character would be seen as eccentric, revolutionary, dangerous, delusional, thus a lot of possible dialogue options and reactions open.

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The main issue with not worshipping a deity in Forgotten Realms is that when you die, you are done for. Your soul goes to the Wall of the Faithless, to either be claimed by demons or devils eventually (in the bad way) or to just slowly assimilate into the wall and go into oblivion.

While the No Deity option should maybe be possible, it also would mean that when you die, it is game over because your soul is stuck in the Wall and you cannot be raised from the dead or resurrected. Even Revivify would not work and there is little the gods themselves can do either.

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man this is factually WRONG the wall of the faithless wasn't created to "punish" those who refused to worship gods, it was created by Myrkul who was the god of the dead after Jergal and its purpose was to not only to force mortals to worship out of fear but to make sure they remember him if he ever got killed, after all gods in dnd don't truly die while there is still someone that remembers them and what better way to claim his place in history than by creating the biggest cosmic abomination against mortals, heck the freaking wall isn't even necessary for Forgotten Realms cosmology it wasn't there originally it was something that Myrkul did out of his overwhelming douchebaggery, the cosmology would still work just fine if the damn wall wasn't there, then the souls of the faithless would most likely go to the outer plane most matching to their beliefs, you know just like EVERY OTHER SETTING OF DND BESIDES EBERRON (that one is another clusterfuck, because there EVERYONE gets the wall of the faithless treatment, Forgotten Realms is the ONLY setting where souls are siphoned to the fugue plane and ONLY because of Myrkul's doing), also the image you are using comes from the game where part of the story is to get RID OF THE FLIPPING WALL and if only Wizards of the Coast weren't such prissy little A-holes to Obsidian back in the day then the ending would have been the utter destruction of the biggest mistake ever added to this setting, the wall is NOT compelling people its bullshit, and the fact that the so called "good gods" of the setting haven't done anything to push for its removal, puts a BIG question mark on whether they are truly good or even actually worthy of worship AT ALL, after all they are condemming people to extreme spiritual torture and being doomed to dissolving into inexistence JUST because they don't want to become their pawns (because that's what mortals are for the gods of Forgotten Realms, mere pawns), the whole thing is nothing more than pure and disgusting spiritual blackmail, and if any of you are actually fine with any of it then there is something wrong with you, i for one want the choice to tell "godly" A-holes where to shove it.

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It would be neat to properly express the personal beliefs of your character yeah.

Not everybody must be out there "Crusading or Clericing" wink
too believe in Helm or Tyr for example - which are both quite popular I feel.

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Originally Posted by TheFoxWhisperer
While the No Deity option should maybe be possible, it also would mean that when you die, it is game over because your soul is stuck in the Wall and you cannot be raised from the dead or resurrected. Even Revivify would not work and there is little the gods themselves can do either.
That's not how it works. The souls travel rather slowly to City of Judgment / Fugue Plane. Once the soul reaches it, it's late for revivifying/raising regardless of their (lack of) faith. Revivifying/raising a faithless works fine. However, something like (True) Resurrection is a different beast, provided longer time has passed - by that time, the soul might very well be stuck in the Wall and therefore not free.

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Originally Posted by marcialhd
man this is factually WRONG the wall of the faithless wasn't created to "punish" those who refused to worship gods,

I don't think anyone said it was there to punish people... just that it was there and was a thing.

Quote
it was created by Myrkul who was the god of the dead after Jergal and its purpose was to not only to force mortals to worship out of fear but to make sure they remember him if he ever got killed, after all gods in dnd don't truly die while there is still someone that remembers them and what better way to claim his place in history than by creating the biggest cosmic abomination against mortals, heck the freaking wall isn't even necessary for Forgotten Realms cosmology it wasn't there originally it was something that Myrkul did out of his overwhelming douchebaggery, the cosmology would still work just fine if the damn wall wasn't there,

Yep, that's absolutely correct. It doesn't need to be there, and indeed MOST of the neutral and good aligned deities in the realms pantheon are against it existing.... they can't do anything about it because there are divine laws about deities interceding directly on the folios of other gods, and countermanding their 'works'. For a while it didn't exist any more, because Myrkul was out of the picture, but sadly he's back again and so is it, as far as our latest sources say, I believe. Nobody, god or mortal, wants it to exist except Myrkul, more or less.

In terms of resurrecting and the like, the wall has functionally no impact on the mechanics - it takes longer for a soul to become unrecognisable and unclaimable by resurrection than all but the longest timeframe options, and the longest one is reality-warping magic that can absolutely restore whatever remains of a soul trapped for that long... however, if you play in a game where you acknowledge the wall, and you have a faithless person in your group, it may be worth thinking about their experience if they are dead for more than a few days, but do get returned to life; there's going to be some unpleasantness, no doubt.

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The way I think of it is that being divine has power in it self and the concepts like justice is a different source of power but is compatible in either additive or multiplicative way. Hence portfolio's can be fought for.

Using that, a paladin can follow the concept and use it as a catalyst to channel the power of the god who is governing it at the time. So technically the oath can be to the concept and not necessarily the god. The God gets the benefits regardless.

Asking to choose a deity is really the same as alignment to a certain degree. I'd rather not be a slave to anything good or bad. I'm spiritual rather than religious and unless you think for story reasons you will die permanently, be sent to that gloom city, be there long enough to be harassed by devil contracts and curious celestials, then put on trial; I don't think it matters to pick a deity unless you are a cleric specifically. Hell, even Oath of vengeance Paladin's straight up have nothing to do with deities.

It's pointless. Not as silly as being atheist or agnostic in dnd but still kind of silly. I mean really at one point Ao forced gods to be on faerun. Priest probably had heart attacks of joy. Even the evil ones lol.

That's how I think of it. Overall I'm against picking a deity. If an angel, god, or celestial wants to help me then sure whatever, but I'm not kissing anyones ass, feet, or whatever brown nose technique a mo fo comes up with. At that point I'd pick a fighter instead of a paladin, for example. Also why i'll never play warlock or cleric.

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I think that you can pick a deity without being a cleric, but it doesn't influence anything (that I know of). Here's how to try: Start a character; pick cleric; pick a deity; choose another class. Now, go back to cleric and see if the deity you picked was retained. If so, chances are the deity=[whatever] tag stays in the character even if it isn't displayed.

[edit] It doesn't work, darn it. Deity resets every time class is changed off of cleric.

I agree, everyone should have a deity.

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I completely agree. Would help a lot with immersion and give out character some kind of alignment based on which deity they worship. It could provide interesting dialogue branches and even affect those short scenes we get when alone at camp. Maybe our character could pray or ask for their god's blessing/express their doubts to them and ask for advice. Even if no answer comes, it's a good chance to give custom characters a bit more depth.

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Originally Posted by marcialhd
man this is factually WRONG the wall of the faithless wasn't created to "punish" those who refused to worship gods, it was created by Myrkul who was the god of the dead after Jergal and its purpose was to not only to force mortals to worship out of fear but to make sure they remember him if he ever got killed, after all gods in dnd don't truly die while there is still someone that remembers them and what better way to claim his place in history than by creating the biggest cosmic abomination against mortals, heck the freaking wall isn't even necessary for Forgotten Realms cosmology it wasn't there originally it was something that Myrkul did out of his overwhelming douchebaggery, the cosmology would still work just fine if the damn wall wasn't there, then the souls of the faithless would most likely go to the outer plane most matching to their beliefs, you know just like EVERY OTHER SETTING OF DND BESIDES EBERRON (that one is another clusterfuck, because there EVERYONE gets the wall of the faithless treatment, Forgotten Realms is the ONLY setting where souls are siphoned to the fugue plane and ONLY because of Myrkul's doing), also the image you are using comes from the game where part of the story is to get RID OF THE FLIPPING WALL and if only Wizards of the Coast weren't such prissy little A-holes to Obsidian back in the day then the ending would have been the utter destruction of the biggest mistake ever added to this setting, the wall is NOT compelling people its bullshit, and the fact that the so called "good gods" of the setting haven't done anything to push for its removal, puts a BIG question mark on whether they are truly good or even actually worthy of worship AT ALL, after all they are condemming people to extreme spiritual torture and being doomed to dissolving into inexistence JUST because they don't want to become their pawns (because that's what mortals are for the gods of Forgotten Realms, mere pawns), the whole thing is nothing more than pure and disgusting spiritual blackmail, and if any of you are actually fine with any of it then there is something wrong with you, i for one want the choice to tell "godly" A-holes where to shove it.
You really need to read the avatar books to get why the wall of the faithless still exists Kelemvor even tried to get rid of it but it backfired on him so Kelemvor had to put back the wall of the faithless he even says in Neverwinter Nights 2 Mask of the Betrayer that if Kelemvor removed the wall again all of the deities would move against him Kelemvor is a powerful deity but he would have no chance of winning a battle with all of the deities that would try to kill him Kelemvor does not want the wall of the faithless but it is a necessary evil because people would stop worshiping deities and deities need worshipers to live without worshipers a deity would die this is why all of the deities want to keep the wall of the faithless around I don't agree with it but it is what it is you could say that before the time of troubles the wall of the faithless was not needed but with Ao new law making that now a deity needs worshipers it is very necessary for the wall of the faithless to exist if you still do not want the wall of the faithless in Forgotten Realms than you need to take it up with Wizards of the Coast they are the ones who made the wall of the faithless cannon in Forgotten Realms


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Yes, Kelemvor does not like the wall, but he can't get rid of it.

BUT! he can make it harder to get sent to the Wall than it was in previous editions. These days, if you don't worship any deitys out of ignorance, or because you never had a cause to do so, but you otherwise have nothing against the gods and have never stopped anyone else from worshiping then you don't get the Wall, you go to an afterlife on the plane that most matches your alignment.

You have to be really anti-deity these days to get the Wall, or be one of those people that does all the motions of worship, but doesn't actually believe in or respect the gods, or be subverting worship for your own personal gain (like corrupt priest using his followers belief to line his own pockets, and he doesn't believe or care).

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Originally Posted by Piff
Yes, Kelemvor does not like the wall, but he can't get rid of it.

BUT! he can make it harder to get sent to the Wall than it was in previous editions. These days, if you don't worship any deitys out of ignorance, or because you never had a cause to do so, but you otherwise have nothing against the gods and have never stopped anyone else from worshiping then you don't get the Wall, you go to an afterlife on the plane that most matches your alignment.

You have to be really anti-deity these days to get the Wall, or be one of those people that does all the motions of worship, but doesn't actually believe in or respect the gods, or be subverting worship for your own personal gain (like corrupt priest using his followers belief to line his own pockets, and he doesn't believe or care).
Agreed he could make it harder for people to get sent to the wall of the faithless my way of dealing with the faithless is by reincarnating them but with no memory of who they was in their past life I would have the starting age of the reincarnated faithless to be a infant but that's how I would deal with it


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Yes, everyone should pick a God and that list should include Lathander dangit

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Originally Posted by Malrith
I completely agree. Would help a lot with immersion and give out character some kind of alignment based on which deity they worship. It could provide interesting dialogue branches and even affect those short scenes we get when alone at camp. Maybe our character could pray or ask for their god's blessing/express their doubts to them and ask for advice. Even if no answer comes, it's a good chance to give custom characters a bit more depth.
1+ for this suggestion. I would like everyone to be able to choose the deity they profess (or lack thereof) when creating a character, even if the plot and mechanics would not change anything (although it would be great to be able to do some activities related to the deity or have additional dialogue options). After all, when we choose a character's appearance, it doesn't really matter much either. As far as I know, if I create a character with pink hair and brown skin no NPC will comment on it, but I will do it anyway because I want to, because it helps me feel better about my character. It should be the same with the deity. Whether I'm a priest or a thief, I want to be able to choose a god and at least imagine my character praying to him. And if I decide to play a male drow who, after a bad experience with the priestesses of Lolth, is fed up with gods and refuses to worship any, then I wish to be able to do so.
I really liked that NwN2 had so many different gods to choose from for each class, even though they had virtually no meaning in the game. There was even a Gargauth about which little was written in Player's Handbook 3e. I wish Baldur's Gate 3 also had so many deities to choose from + Archdevils and Demon Lords.

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