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I’ve read a lot of posts from people complaining about the combat in this game. They either feel to weak, or they feel like it takes too long etc.

Some of this is down to player education for sure, but I think a lot of it comes from the extremely high degree of variance in D&D as compared to game systems designed for video games.

For example, in a typical kind of PC RPG, a weapon might do something like 10-15 damage. So the max damage you can do is only 1.5 times the min damage. This makes it feel like you get at least a solid hit any time you do damage.

But in 5E, a typical damage cantrip will do something like 1-8 damage. The max damage here is 8 times the min damage. This means that you can hit an enemy, and basically do no damage, or you can get hit and the enemy can absolutely clobber you.

So in short, 5E has a much higher degree of variance than video game RPGs...especially at low levels.

I wonder if providing an option to “cut the edges” off of damage rolls might improve the experience for players that are confused by D&D combat. For example, it would make a d8 give a result from 3-6 instead of 1-8.

Personally, I would want to play with actual D&D rules because I understand and like them...I just think it may smooth things out for players that don’t get the system.

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What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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In regards to the player education part, this is a topic I posted about as well. I have experience with tabletop games (warhammer), but not D&D. When I first started playing BG3, I spent a good couple of hours reading the D&D 5e rules online, along with a couple of youtube videos. I actually found this very rewarding because I enjoy learning the intricacies of the game and it improves my play experience. BG3 really feels like I'm playing a virtual version of D&D now. That being said, it astonishes me that Larian did not provide these learning resources within the game itself. I imagine this is planned, but it really should have been present on launch, even if it is "early access."

Perhaps if players understood these rules more clearly, combat would be more rewarding to them.


Here's a copy-paste of the major frustrations I had with the game during my 30+ hours of playtime so far. All of this relates to combat in general.

1) Perks / abilities / passives / etc DO NOT appear in the character sheet. For example, at level 2 for warlock I chose "Agonizing Blast" and "Devil's Sight" as additional passives. However, NOWHERE in the character sheet (or entire game) does it display that I now have these for my warlock. I would only know I have them because I remember picking them. It is a serious oversight to not have ALL of the character progressions and advancements display in the character sheet.

2) Unclear status effects on spells, lack of a compendium. Many spells that cause status effects are unclear in what they actually do. For example, "Blind." The tooltip on this spell states it causes "Blindness" that can be shaken off with a saving throw, but it does not state what the actual effects of Blindness are. Does Blindness mean that attacks can't be made? Or does it mean they just have less of a chance to hit? The tooltip on the spell is incomplete in this sense, and the lack of a compendium means that I cannot look it up anywhere in the game. Another example is "Silence," which creates a sphere in which all creatures are "Silenced." What does Silenced mean? Does it mean they are literally silent, or does it mean they cannot cast abilities? Again, the spell tooltip is unclear. This is true for MANY spells. Either expand the tooltips, or create a compendium where the player can read about status effects and what they do.

3) Hidden details on spells / abilities that are not listed in the tooltip. One example here being "Hex." If the concentration of Hex is ever broken, Hex can be recast on another target without the use of a spell slot. This is not mentioned on the tooltip. Another example is "Shatter," which is an AoE spell, but nowhere on the tooltip is it actually listed as AoE. It makes me wonder how many other spells have hidden effects that I am unaware of.

4) Inconsistent rules. The example here being if I cast "Darkness," why is it that my warlock with Devil's Sight cannot see or attack in the zone of Darkness? If the rules are supposed to follow D&D, then my warlock SHOULD BE ABLE to see and attack in the Darkness spell effect. In this game, that is not the case, and it is unclear why. Furthermore, how does this make "Darkness" any different from "Fog?" Perhaps this is a simple oversight in game design and programming.

5) Lack of a rulebook. If the entire game is based on the rules of D&D and even plays exactly like D&D with dice rolls, why not include an in-game rulebook? It's easy enough to google all sorts of rules, but at least including the basics would make sense. This of course would simply be a quality of life change, and an optional compendium that exists for players that want it.

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I fully understand what you're saying Creslin but I also actually LIKE D&D combat - along with the critical hits and critical misses, chance to hit and chance to miss and everything else. If it gets changed into 3-6 it might soon become 100% hit chance since people don't like missing and suddenly the game is undistinguishable from other RPGs out there - a fate I would very much like to avoid.
That being said, I can say that I watched a streamer play the game late last night that has never played D&D and the 50ish people that were in chat had to explain to him how spell slots worked along with some other things. End result? He absolutely LOVED the game due to it's intricacy.
To my mind this means the UI needs to be A LOT better - both in regards to tool tips, showing your ability score modifiers next to the actual ability scores as you increase them, making you instinctually understand the choices you're making upon level up etc... then you you don't get this effect (watch the first 35 seconds): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8A7qDItsGM


I fail to understand your point Orbax.


Edit: egrish hart

Last edited by Ugmaro; 10/10/20 11:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ugmaro
That being said, I can say that I watched a streamer play the game late last night that has never played D&D and the 50ish people that were in chat had to explain to him how spell slots worked along with some other things. End result? He absolutely LOVED the game due to it's intricacy.
To my mind this means the UI needs to be A LOT better - both in regards to tool tips, showing your ability score modifiers next to the actual ability scores as you increase them, making you guterally understand the choices you're making upon level up etc... then you you don't get this effect (watch the first 35 seconds): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8A7qDItsGM



Exactly this. I believe the vast majority of players WANT intricacy and enjoy it. If the intricacy is there but it's not clearly explained, then it merely becomes frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Ugmaro
I fully understand what you're saying Creslin but I also actually LIKE D&D combat - along with the critical hits and critical misses, chance to hit and chance to miss and everything else. If it gets changed into 3-6 it might soon become 100% hit chance since people don't like missing and suddenly the game is undistinguishable from other RPGs out there - a fate I would very much like to avoid.
That being said, I can say that I watched a streamer play the game late last night that has never played D&D and the 50ish people that were in chat had to explain to him how spell slots worked along with some other things. End result? He absolutely LOVED the game due to it's intricacy.
To my mind this means the UI needs to be A LOT better - both in regards to tool tips, showing your ability score modifiers next to the actual ability scores as you increase them, making you instinctually understand the choices you're making upon level up etc... then you you don't get this effect (watch the first 35 seconds): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8A7qDItsGM


I fail to understand your point Orbax.


Edit: egrish hart



Yeah if something like making all rolls more "average" is ever implemented, I would want it to just be an option. If you ever played Pathfinder Kingmaker, that game had really good options that could let you tweak the difficulty of the game and how close its rules were to the PF tabletop game.

I think something similar for BG3 would be nice. I can definitely see a lot of strictly video gamers being shocked when their character gets one shotted by an imp that rolled a 20 and then got decent damage rolls. It would be nice to give them an experience closer to your typical video game RPG, while letting us still play with rules really close to the tabletop game.

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Originally Posted by Ugmaro
If it gets changed into 3-6 it might soon become 100% hit chance since people don't like missing and suddenly the game is undistinguishable from other RPGs out there - a fate I would very much like to avoid.


I think we should be careful to dismiss new players feedback. Especially using slippery slope analogies. It is perfectly reasonable to seek a balance between complete randomness and complete predictability.

That being said, I think your general point is correct. DnDs intricate combat and moderate randomness makes it really engaging. Reducing it could cause it to become easier to plan "optimal" turns and make the combat less interesting.

Sadly, I think DnD suffers from the inherent disadvantages of a dice system at low levels. The randomness feels "just right" when rolling a 3d4 + 4 attack, but can be a bit overkill when hitting for 1d12. Since as the number of dice increase, the probabilities become more and more normalized. (SEE: https://anydice.com)

This could be subtly tweaked in the RNG at low levels to make a 1d12 distribute more in a bell curve. But I think that might cause more problems then it solves. Either way, this becomes a non-issue after low levels.


Last edited by Burdock; 10/10/20 11:58 PM.
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Sorry, never played Kingmaker so I can't exactly connect. Maybe the easier way to do it is to just have set difficulties when you start up the game? "Easy" basically meaning you always deal max damage and gain more hp on level up - the game should be a breeze and combat won't take long because you kill everything super quick

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Originally Posted by Creslin321
I’ve read a lot of posts from people complaining about the combat in this game. They either feel to weak, or they feel like it takes too long etc.

Some of this is down to player education for sure, but I think a lot of it comes from the extremely high degree of variance in D&D as compared to game systems designed for video games.

For example, in a typical kind of PC RPG, a weapon might do something like 10-15 damage. So the max damage you can do is only 1.5 times the min damage. This makes it feel like you get at least a solid hit any time you do damage.

But in 5E, a typical damage cantrip will do something like 1-8 damage. The max damage here is 8 times the min damage. This means that you can hit an enemy, and basically do no damage, or you can get hit and the enemy can absolutely clobber you.

So in short, 5E has a much higher degree of variance than video game RPGs...especially at low levels.

I wonder if providing an option to “cut the edges” off of damage rolls might improve the experience for players that are confused by D&D combat. For example, it would make a d8 give a result from 3-6 instead of 1-8.

Personally, I would want to play with actual D&D rules because I understand and like them...I just think it may smooth things out for players that don’t get the system.


I recognize that the low end damage output of many weapons and effects in D&D can be a bit trying at times, but I I'd rather have it rectified by in-game means, for example special gear, status effects and potential unique ability effects from, well whatever would make sense in a narrative context, and also better, easily accessible and readable information about how stuff works in the game in general.

I'm a long-term D&D player and the game confuses me too some times, because there's a fair amount of stuff to keep track of in D&D and the game does a poor job of providing that info to you in a convenient and understandable way. In terms of accessing mechanical information sometimes, like comparing 2 effects that relate to each other somehow (my weapon damage and my ability modifer to weapon damage for example) is 2 or more clicks away from each other. It doesn't sound like a lot but it gets really annoying when you're trying to remember all your numbers and traits, and is compounded by the fact some vital information from levelling up isn't available on the character sheet and essential information from the character sheet isn't available when levelling up.
Basically, any time a mechanical feature is displayed all the related stats/traits and the final "value" of that feature should be readily available information, in an unobtrusive and convenient way. No problem I'm sure laugh

Last edited by Khorvale; 11/10/20 12:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by Burdock
Originally Posted by Ugmaro
If it gets changed into 3-6 it might soon become 100% hit chance since people don't like missing and suddenly the game is undistinguishable from other RPGs out there - a fate I would very much like to avoid.


I think we should be careful to dismiss new players feedback. Especially using slippery slope analogies. It is perfectly reasonable to seek a balance between complete randomness and complete predictability.

That being said, I think your general point is correct. DnDs intricate combat and moderate randomness makes it really engaging. Reducing it could cause it to become easier to plan "optimal" turns and make the combat less interesting.

Sadly, I think DnD suffers from the inherent disadvantages of a dice system at low levels. The randomness feels "just right" when rolling a 3d4 + 4 attack, but can be a bit overkill when hitting for 1d12. Since as the number of dice increase, the probabilities become more and more normalized. (SEE: https://anydice.com)

This could be subtly tweaked in the RNG at low levels to make a 1d12 distribute more in a bell curve. But I think that might cause more problems then it solves. Either way, this becomes a non-issue after low levels.



Yeah sorry, I tend to make my statements quite simple like that to really get my point across well. You're absolutely correct in everything you've said, the only problem is that low levels provide about 10 hours of gameplay and new players will not play for 10 hours if they don't like the game - as I said, I think it's extremely important that players understand what their choices mean in regards to how their characters will perform, which requires tooltips and more explanation. Mark has also pointed out that it is unacceptable that you cannot review what features your character already has and what they do. THIS needs to be fixxed before considering further additions IMO

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Listening to the Vocal minority is always a terrible idea.
Attempting to make it "Better" for them always results in a worse product.
An optional "Tutorial" option for Character creation, or for "First time 5e" players might help smooth things out, as the game does feel like you need some "Basic" knowledge going into it.
The "Class Features" should be included, in the same section of the Character Sheet (N) that lists your Class Features, its a minor oversight and should be an easy fix (they already put level up info there, they just missed some).
Sure, a lot more "Help" could be handy, there are better examples of games Help linking EVERY mechanic on mouseover, variable difficulty is a nice option, but trying to "Fix" a D&D game because people don't know D&D feels wrong.

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The game absolutely need more tutorial and clear explanations.
How do you want new players, I.E understand how spells works with the actual details ?
The game have to explain better the D&D mecanics. I'm sure it will come.

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There's definitely not enough tooltips on what things do what, what effects they have, or how the system works. Heavy vs. Finesse vs. Light weapons? I have a 5e PHB, so I could look it up to remind myself. But it isn't obvious in the EA unless you already know the rules.

What proficiencies do I have? There's not exactly easy to find, and the non-combat ones are only inferred as far as I can tell after 20 hours.

That said, I'm very comfortable with D&D combat compared to DOS2 combo/exploit tactics, which I never really got a good handle on and struggled sometimes.

Low-level 5e is brutally hard, even in pen & paper, because you don't have a lot of the tools you really need to impact a situation in an optimal way. That said, the creativity allowed in BG3 really hits the mark for me in terms of translating the tabletop to here. Pushing enemies to their deaths, or at least forcing them prone? Yes please!

- Relentless seek advantage, and press your enemies into disadvantage.
- Moderate your spell and ability usage, but extensively use the ones that recharge frequently or have no limit. Cantrips are massively improved in 5e compared to previous editions, and should be a spell-caster's go-to abilities.
^ Except for Clerics, who should be right up in the fray with the fighters.
- Positioning constantly matters. Shove and Jump are great additions to getting those advantages or avoiding those reactions.

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The only issue is that targetting is currently really picky and spells miss if you misclick slightly away from the target.


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Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
The only issue is that targetting is currently really picky and spells miss if you misclick slightly away from the target.



Targeting yes lol...I just sneak attacked the sh!t out of poor Shadowheart LOL.

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I'm not really a DnD player, but it didn't feel so alien to me.

There are more similarities to the original series than I think people might realize.

Of course, I also played the OG unpatched BG1 CD and I doubt anything could feel as terrible as that.

People just may have a hard-time coming to grips that there's a sizeable luck factor with the DnD system the games are based off of. Anyone who's unfamiliar won't consider options they have to offset that.


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This game may be D&D rules but not it's spirit. If combat was this difficult in D&D nobody would make it past level 1.

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after playing 2 hour in EA i refunded the game. reason? combat is very luckluster. its primitive and repetative and gets boring very fast.

i played both DOS and i have to say that this game is a huge step back. Devs pigeonhole themselves in this dnd mess of a system and i guess they couldnt do much after that/ but god why u dumped you own great combat system from DOS?

now all the strategy and tactics went out of the window. u cant really plan the combat if u have no idea what you ONE ATACK PER ROUND will hit for. it can be 1 or 6 or miss which is the case most of the time so here is that. we had 20 years of

gamedevelopment and you desided to go back to 1997?

The other big thing for me is this dice roll you have to watch through every dialog check. its just annoying, plz stop wasting players time with this. doestn do anyhting u just have to click through it every time

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Originally Posted by Festival
after playing 2 hour in EA i refunded the game. reason? combat is very luckluster. its primitive and repetative and gets boring very fast.

i played both DOS and i have to say that this game is a huge step back. Devs pigeonhole themselves in this dnd mess of a system and i guess they couldnt do much after that/ but god why u dumped you own great combat system from DOS?

now all the strategy and tactics went out of the window. u cant really plan the combat if u have no idea what you ONE ATACK PER ROUND will hit for. it can be 1 or 6 or miss which is the case most of the time so here is that. we had 20 years of

gamedevelopment and you desided to go back to 1997?

The other big thing for me is this dice roll you have to watch through every dialog check. its just annoying, plz stop wasting players time with this. doestn do anyhting u just have to click through it every time


I think you just don’t understand the system. Even at level 1 and 2, I’m launching enemies off cliffs, making water surfaces then freezing them into ice, making huge fire surfaces enemies have to walk through...and a lot of this is just with cantrips.

Honestly, I feel like I have more options than I did at low level in DOS.

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Originally Posted by TheTrueObelus
This game may be D&D rules but not it's spirit. If combat was this difficult in D&D nobody would make it past level 1.

I haven't found it too unbearably hard yet. The DOS games and even the original series are a lot more unforgiving.

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