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Originally Posted by Festival
after playing 2 hour in EA i refunded the game. reason? combat is very luckluster. its primitive and repetative and gets boring very fast.

i played both DOS and i have to say that this game is a huge step back. Devs pigeonhole themselves in this dnd mess of a system and i guess they couldnt do much after that/ but god why u dumped you own great combat system from DOS?

now all the strategy and tactics went out of the window. u cant really plan the combat if u have no idea what you ONE ATACK PER ROUND will hit for. it can be 1 or 6 or miss which is the case most of the time so here is that. we had 20 years of

gamedevelopment and you desided to go back to 1997?

The other big thing for me is this dice roll you have to watch through every dialog check. its just annoying, plz stop wasting players time with this. doestn do anyhting u just have to click through it every time

Bonus actions and cantrips exist for a reason.

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i see no point in using all this/ if u have just 1 atack per round u gotta use the best one/ which for me was eltrich blast or smth like that. and there was no point whatsoever in using anything else. besides u can user othe spells like once per fight and that it. and that u have to waste time to rest. pretty dumb if u ask me

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Originally Posted by Festival
after playing 2 hour in EA i refunded the game. reason? combat is very luckluster. its primitive and repetative and gets boring very fast.

i played both DOS and i have to say that this game is a huge step back. Devs pigeonhole themselves in this dnd mess of a system and i guess they couldnt do much after that/ but god why u dumped you own great combat system from DOS?

now all the strategy and tactics went out of the window. u cant really plan the combat if u have no idea what you ONE ATACK PER ROUND will hit for. it can be 1 or 6 or miss which is the case most of the time so here is that. we had 20 years of

gamedevelopment and you desided to go back to 1997?

The other big thing for me is this dice roll you have to watch through every dialog check. its just annoying, plz stop wasting players time with this. doestn do anyhting u just have to click through it every time


You refunded an unfinished product because you were unimpressed with combat after less than two hours of playtime that you found to be unrewarding because you were still level 1?
The DOS system was dumped because it's not DOS.
I don't believe that you're qualified to say that strategy and tactics went out the window when you didn't even scratch the surface of an early access product.
You very much appear to be one of those people who thought that this was going to be DOS3 and you're sad that it's very much not.
I don't believe that a good determination can be made of any RPG after less than two hours of playtime, especially a game that's in early access.

I'm fine with fair criticisms of the game because EA exists specifically for criticism, but none of these points are coming from a place of any actual experience outside of loading it up and wandering around for an hour and a half. If it's not what you expected, that's fine because not everything is for everyone, but to be upset that an early access game isn't a sequel to a completely unrelated series is just silly.


I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought.

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you assume too much. no where in my post i demaned Dos 3 u have to pay attention. the post was about bad combat system. i am pretty sure that i didnt miss much bc i watched some vids with lvl 4 combat and it was all the same as my lvl 2 same repetative boring rounds. besides why am i supposed to suffer through boring content more then two hours if i am not interested from the start? to figure out that there is nothing different later? i told you i checked the vids of higher lvl content it was basicly the same. same 1 action per round with the same spells you get on lvl 1 aside from some aoe that u can pretty much use once per fight. wow thats a lot different when you have 20 mobs to go

Last edited by Festival; 11/10/20 05:48 AM.
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Combat needs better visual feedback on what's going on.

Every time you "miss" it feels like you failed a simple task. You hit nothing but air and Larian even added a little laughter there from the opponent lol.

But in D&D a "miss" doesn't always mean YOU failed. It often means you hit, but the heavily armored opponent's armor or shield soaked the damage. You succeeded in hitting and the opponent succeeded in blocking or deflecting. You both did good. THIS needs to be visually represented, not only to give more accurate feedback and make tanks feel like tanks, but also to eliminate the feel-bads when the game tells you your attacks are super easy to dodge when it's not so.

Last edited by 1varangian; 11/10/20 07:49 AM.
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Lot of characters die in early levels. (Table top)
Gives combat more weight when a well placed arrow can ruin you day.
I feel the opposite. I feel they captured the tabletop feel quite successfully

Except for those barrels


Originally Posted by TheTrueObelus
This game may be D&D rules but not it's spirit. If combat was this difficult in D&D nobody would make it past level 1.


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Originally Posted by Jargoyle
Lot of characters die in early levels. (Table top)
Gives combat more weight when a well placed arrow can ruin you day.
I feel the opposite. I feel they captured the tabletop feel quite successfully

Except for those barrels


Personally I think combat should be a bit less deadly in a video game because dying in a video game means going back and redoing stuff you may have just done until you get it right, which isn't really fun. The game shouldn't by default be a cakewalk, but I think at this point the game is expecting more expertise off the bat than is reasonable for an average player. This definitely feels like playing hard mode as opposed to normal, for me at least. A baffling number of players are finding it easy and the more I dig into it the more it seems to be that they've just mastered the game and figured out how to take advantage of the systems far faster than me.

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Originally Posted by Festival
i see no point in using all this/ if u have just 1 atack per round u gotta use the best one/ which for me was eltrich blast or smth like that. and there was no point whatsoever in using anything else. besides u can user othe spells like once per fight and that it. and that u have to waste time to rest. pretty dumb if u ask me

Honestly, combat for Warlocks is kind of boring in the tabletop as well. They're fun to role play, but just not to play in combat.

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Maybe the game could also have a small combat tutorial going through the most basic concepts in an entertaining way... (say with Volo, Elminster or a funny D&D creature from the bestiary acting as a guide)... maybe.

Step 1: Explaining AC and Attack bonuses (Volo/creature takes a couple different armors, shortly explains them and lets the player attack)

Step 2: Explaining damage and resistance/immunity (Elminster spawns a couple different creatures with different/no resistance / immunity and lets the player attack the creatures each)

Step 3: Explaining Advantage/Disadvantage (various scenarios explaining the most common ones, e.g. height advantage from ranged, player attacks)

Step 4: Explaining Saving Throws on Spells (Elminster turns it all around and attacks the player and his various attributes via different spells)

The Steam forums are an absolutely train wreck, but somebody actually did a pretty good post. Naturally, it won't be read. https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/0/2971771480498700109/

Last edited by Sven_; 11/10/20 09:45 AM.
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The problem there is that most people will ignore tutorials...

"It's not that hard."

"Eh, i'll figure it out on my own."

"I've played games like this before, i'm good"

Failure follows.. which lead to the rage threads.

(Admittedly i've ignored them as well.)

A tutorial with an image pop-up guide might be best in this case. One which you could turn off, of course.

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So, then, can you explain to me how I'm supposed to be able to beat two minotaurs? Their first attack downs two of my party, their second downs a third. This leaves one character to to deal with nearly 150 hit points of bad guy. It's just not happening. If i'm extra lucky the Bulette will come along and distract, and possibly wipe out, one of them. But then I have a Minotaur and Bulette to deal with. It's extremely frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Loki the Cat
Listening to the Vocal minority is always a terrible idea.
Attempting to make it "Better" for them always results in a worse product.


This goes both ways you know.

---

I really think it's down to turn based combat Larian went with. Their turn based combat is brilliant in D:OS games because you can do a lot more in a single turn whether it's because of no outside factors spells limitation (slots etc) and whether it's because of surfaces and so on that give massively more options to keep greatly affecting flow of combat even outside your turn.

But when you slap on D&D 5e limitations, where every turn is practically "do one thing" most of the time (which often is just a shitty attack or cantrip) and then maybe one additional thing once in a while, top it off with d20 RNG and combine it with Larian's turn based where they throw horde of enemies at you, as if it was D:OS - it quickly becomes super frustrating slog.

Those Woads+Mephits encounter comes to mind or Goblin Temple outside, where you have 1-2 things that are an actual threat and then a sea of trash, so that every 1 round takes a good 2 minutes of time IRL before you can even act and when you do - you just miss half of your shit or simply do some pitiful damage and wait another 2 minutes until you can do anything. *groan*

It worked nicely in D:OS where you could easily mow down several weak enemies in a turn even early on, but in BG3 you just don't have that kind of firepower on top of that blasted d20 RNG.

I really think they should consider real time combat as an option, even if it's just to quickly deal with all that trash after you are effectively done with actual threat in the encounter or alternatively not have these bajillion mephits/goblins/spiderlings/whatever and instead combine them into 2-3 enemies that mean business, while the rest trash that does not stand a chance scatter to the winds in terror. Yes, I'm looking at you 8 HP Novice Bork that does nothing except burn another 10 seconds per turn.

That or they can make some sort of change to speed up all the NPC turns a lot, whether by adding combat speed slider or making some other tweak so that all enemy actors won't take 2 minutes to do their stuff.

---

I 100% think they need to come up with something to amend these pains, because it is often an unnecessary slog.

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Yeah I got to the minotaurs and rage logged. Ridiculously overpowered with abilities they dont have in tabletop. Wiped my party in two turns. Trying to build up the will to fight them again.

Oh so I tried to be clever and lure the minotaurs back to the gate that shoots fireballs nearby only to discover that while combat is turn based for your characters it is not so for the gate. The fireballs from the gate just repeatedly shoot while you have to wait for your turn.

Last edited by TheTrueObelus; 11/10/20 02:04 PM.
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I really wanted to love the combat, being a Larian fan (D:OS 2 is my all time favorite game). But indeed, it was hard not to notice how much less the choices I made mattered when it was my combat turn. The limited spell slots wear out quickly (also I'm the gamer archetype who doesn't like to rely much on consumable / limited resources) and then it's cantrip / basic attack time. Unfortunately, the slow progression highlighted the reduced tactical options even more.

On "combat being a slog". Currently, needlessly using resources that require resting are discouraged by the IRL flow disruption of camping / loading screens. (Don't get me wrong, I love the option to reflect and chat with companions. But that's independent of what makes combat fun.) Often my thoughts were: "Do I really need to use that level 2 spell? Nah, just spend 2-3 more rounds of cantrips, then eat a zuccini-stuffed pighead with 7 potatoes after combat." Essentially, I feel rewarded for not playing with 70% of the goodies out there, ie for using repetitive / turtle / sneaking* exploit tactics.

On the note of not being a DnD player. I'm not sure it's merely an expectation management thing (ie. I know DnD and therefore I "get the system"). Most CRPG gamers (I think) pick up systems quickly. It's about how enjoyable the combat can be, once you are familiar with how everything works. (Neverwinter Nights I and II also didn't offer the most fun combat in the first few levels.)

What I hope to see more of:
- faster progression, extended level cap -> so that builds can become more diverse from their starting point
- more active skills / spells that change the way the game is played (as opposed to damage, but with a different color) eg. the perk that adds push to Eldritch Blast
- some ways to get around limited long rest slots (potentially tied to feats)
-- refill one slot if kills an enemy
-- chance for cantrip to refill slot on hit + successful ability check
-- once per combat use a spell without expending slot
- AI tactics to counter my pesky "rooftop - hit - move - hide - rinse - repeat tactics"
- +1: a sneak toggle button for the entire party

That said, I had fun climbing most rooftops and blasting the mobs off ledges for a hefty damage boost. smile


* Alpha-striking via sneaking and disappearing to the shadows could become AWESOME ^_^ or a cheesy exploit, well mannered gamers are not stooping down to. It depends on how hard it is to pull it off: ie how the AI reacts, investigates, makes my life hard after their member is suddenly replaced by a pile of ash. Dark is great for hiding... It's also great to see quite well where that fireball just came from.

Last edited by Riovir; 11/10/20 01:53 PM.
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I feel like the game combat doesn't really do well with a "classic D&D party" (Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Rogue) setup, but my Warlock/Warlock/Cleric/Rogue which is all about versatility, maneuverability and massive damage is really fun to play. Probably because they're more grafting D&D onto the Divinity engine rather than the other way around, so the D:OS2 gameplay style is a lot more satisfying than approaching it as a D&D game

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Originally Posted by Khorvale
I feel like the game combat doesn't really do well with a "classic D&D party" (Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Rogue) setup, but my Warlock/Warlock/Cleric/Rogue which is all about versatility, maneuverability and massive damage is really fun to play. Probably because they're more grafting D&D onto the Divinity engine rather than the other way around, so the D:OS2 gameplay style is a lot more satisfying than approaching it as a D&D game


Also, what's the point of all the deep character customization / build system if we use the cookie cutter classic party setup? If's fun to come up with a party using a unique playstyle, and keep replaying the game until I run out of gameplay changing ideas. On that note, I hope to see more companion customization. Again, D:OS 2 did a brilliant move by decoupling the origin character's story from they tactical aspects. (By letting you pick a skillset AKA preset they would focus on.) I understand that locking down the general archetype of each companion makes sense because of their story in BG3. Still, I'd love to be able to respec them / grow them in wildly different directions in subsequent playthoughs.

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Originally Posted by Riovir
Originally Posted by Khorvale
I feel like the game combat doesn't really do well with a "classic D&D party" (Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Rogue) setup, but my Warlock/Warlock/Cleric/Rogue which is all about versatility, maneuverability and massive damage is really fun to play. Probably because they're more grafting D&D onto the Divinity engine rather than the other way around, so the D:OS2 gameplay style is a lot more satisfying than approaching it as a D&D game


Also, what's the point of all the deep character customization / build system if we use the cookie cutter classic party setup? If's fun to come up with a party using a unique playstyle, and keep replaying the game until I run out of gameplay changing ideas. On that note, I hope to see more companion customization. Again, D:OS 2 did a brilliant move by decoupling the origin character's story from they tactical aspects. (By letting you pick a skillset AKA preset they would focus on.) I understand that locking down the general archetype of each companion makes sense because of their story in BG3. Still, I'd love to be able to respec them / grow them in wildly different directions in subsequent playthoughs.


Hopefully if things turn out an expansion with extra content isn't too much to hope for, but I'm pretty certain the plan was to only cover Players' Handbook so there's a very real limit to how much more customization we're going to see, I assume

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Originally Posted by TheTrueObelus
Yeah I got to the minotaurs and rage logged. Ridiculously overpowered with abilities they dont have in tabletop. Wiped my party in two turns. Trying to build up the will to fight them again.

Oh so I tried to be clever and lure the minotaurs back to the gate that shoots fireballs nearby only to discover that while combat is turn based for your characters it is not so for the gate. The fireballs from the gate just repeatedly shoot while you have to wait for your turn.


If you thought that was hard, look forward to the
Spectator/Drow
fight

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Originally Posted by Jargoyle
Lot of characters die in early levels. (Table top)
Gives combat more weight when a well placed arrow can ruin you day.
I feel the opposite. I feel they captured the tabletop feel quite successfully

Except for those barrels


Personally I think combat should be a bit less deadly in a video game because dying in a video game means going back and redoing stuff you may have just done until you get it right, which isn't really fun. The game shouldn't by default be a cakewalk, but I think at this point the game is expecting more expertise off the bat than is reasonable for an average player. This definitely feels like playing hard mode as opposed to normal, for me at least. A baffling number of players are finding it easy and the more I dig into it the more it seems to be that they've just mastered the game and figured out how to take advantage of the systems far faster than me.


I have to say that dying in a tabletop means that you die for good and you have to make a new character (unless you have a high level party that has the spells or money to resurrect you). In a videogame you simply have to reload a save. Lower stakes.
Be killed in bg3 is not such a big deal in comparison. You just have to push F9 and try again so I do not mind the supposed difficulty of the combats or the missed rolls. I personally find walks in the park where you do not have the pressure of dying really boring. If you do not have the possibility of failure, I prefer to read a book or watch a movie.

Right now there are only one difficulty mode. I assume with the player´s feedback we would have more at full game release.

Last edited by _Vic_; 11/10/20 07:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by Riovir
Originally Posted by Khorvale
I feel like the game combat doesn't really do well with a "classic D&D party" (Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Rogue) setup, but my Warlock/Warlock/Cleric/Rogue which is all about versatility, maneuverability and massive damage is really fun to play. Probably because they're more grafting D&D onto the Divinity engine rather than the other way around, so the D:OS2 gameplay style is a lot more satisfying than approaching it as a D&D game


Also, what's the point of all the deep character customization / build system if we use the cookie cutter classic party setup? If's fun to come up with a party using a unique playstyle, and keep replaying the game until I run out of gameplay changing ideas. On that note, I hope to see more companion customization. Again, D:OS 2 did a brilliant move by decoupling the origin character's story from they tactical aspects. (By letting you pick a skillset AKA preset they would focus on.) I understand that locking down the general archetype of each companion makes sense because of their story in BG3. Still, I'd love to be able to respec them / grow them in wildly different directions in subsequent playthoughs.

That´s more of a thing of D&D5e than the game. You cannot change shadowheart subclass because clerics chose their domain at level 1 for example. Skills, weapon/armour proficiences, race features and initial stats are already chosen at level one for the rest of the game ( with some exceptions) too, so the only thing you can do after choosing your subclass is multiclass (not implemented) or add either a feat or a stat every 4 levels.
The only option would be a total respec where you can change abilities, appearance, background, etc. I do not see feasible that larian would add that but maybe a mod?

Last edited by _Vic_; 11/10/20 07:33 PM.
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