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#688200 11/10/20 12:11 PM
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So,
Not to be nit picky but I hope BG3 or at least some game in the future solves the level problem. Not really sure how to express this complaint but....

Doesn't it seem odd that if level 6 is so hard to get to then why once we hit "x" level 99% of everone we run into is that level also?

Like in Divinity 2, Once I am level say 12 and I go to where level 12 chars go EVERONE is around the same level, even the hobo in the street. Seems pretty stupid, may as well not even have levels just have gameplay.

I think as you grow in level you grow more powerful and it becomes increasingly rare to find similarly high level characters. Sure, this may mean you can kill 80% of a village but maybe on the back end reputation points accrue and then elminster shoves a fireball up your butt if you are running around burning villages lol.

I just think that the leveling system in RPGs should be more true to game play, just because you hit level 5 doesn't mean everyone else should be level 5 too. If you grew powerful you seem way less powerful when everyone else has the same powers.

Does that make sense?

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In my tabletop games, or anything else I do dnd related even stuff like NWN2 persistent world stuff, Commoners are essentially "Level 0" or "Level 1" because of how nonsensical it'd be for it to be anything but. As a higher level means they'd have higher stats that are common of such levels, which tends to make little sense for someone who doesn't risk their life in battle or do something particularly outstanding that would aid their 'level'.

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Does that make sense?

Of course. It's called level scaling and many shit games do that, because it's the lazy way of balancing a game.

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Originally Posted by Daniel213
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Does that make sense?

Of course. It's called level scaling and many shit games do that, because it's the lazy way of balancing a game.


It always depends on how you do it and there are pros and cons for both sides. If they do not level with you, skipped content like sidequests, or even the main questline for people who get sidetracked constantly will just be a breeze at later stages. You can also lock players out of certain regions, quests and other parts of the game, because the player can not at all beat them. Making everything (or nearly everything) scale to your level means that fights are always of the same or similar challenge and the whole game is open to you from the start, regardless of you playing only the main quest, or are a completionist or have a tendency to avoid fighting (and therefore XP). On the other hand you might have a challenging fight all the time, even against a pretty trashy party of caverats, that drained a substantial part of your resources and time for a reward that is totally not worth the effort.

Generally a mix of the two is the best approach. Like not having gear scale the same as levels (in Oblivion you would only fight people in Ebony Armour after 20 levels or so), or to have certain encounters to scale differently (like large monsters or bosses being very powerful and always a certain amount ahead of you, or always at a certain and high stage). Generally you would want a game that is always challenging and only varies in difficulty slightly depending on your playstyle and the associated level.
In BG 3 it seems, and I guess this is easier to do with a more streamlined and linear game experience, they balance it in a way so that you are always in a certain level range when encounters happen.

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I don't like level scaling much.
If it's off you can go doing easier quests you missed out before or kill easier opponents if you feel the need of a level up before advancing further.
I like the solution from AC:Odyssey (I think) where you could set the level scaling to a lower level, so quests did not fully scale but remained at a level -4 compared to you, so they were not fullay scaled but also not totally pointless.

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To be fair they are scaled by area, but I think I agree with your main point. If you come back to a group of early goblins late in the game they will still be level 1-2, but there are essentially level 3 areas, level 4 areas, level 5 areas, etc. As you say this is how they did it in DOS2 and many CRPGs and I think it works to an extent.

I definitely agree that having "commoners" at high levels is nonsense. I would also like to see a little less upscaling of monsters. For example, a goblin in 5e is CR 1/4. If you face a group of 4 goblins as a level 1 party they can give you some trouble. If you face a group of 4 goblins as a level 5 party you will stomp them easily. If I want my level 5 party to fight goblins as a DM I might hit them with a dozen of them and a handful of ogres or some other allied creatures. I realize this isn't always ideal in a video game format but it gives a much better sense of progression when you are strong enough to mow through multiple goblins in a turn. Giving the monsters levels can be interesting but takes that sense of progression away.

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Originally Posted by VincentNZ
Originally Posted by Daniel213
Quote
Does that make sense?

Of course. It's called level scaling and many shit games do that, because it's the lazy way of balancing a game.


It always depends on how you do it and there are pros and cons for both sides. If they do not level with you, skipped content like sidequests, or even the main questline for people who get sidetracked constantly will just be a breeze at later stages. You can also lock players out of certain regions, quests and other parts of the game, because the player can not at all beat them. Making everything (or nearly everything) scale to your level means that fights are always of the same or similar challenge and the whole game is open to you from the start, regardless of you playing only the main quest, or are a completionist or have a tendency to avoid fighting (and therefore XP). On the other hand you might have a challenging fight all the time, even against a pretty trashy party of caverats, that drained a substantial part of your resources and time for a reward that is totally not worth the effort.

Generally a mix of the two is the best approach. Like not having gear scale the same as levels (in Oblivion you would only fight people in Ebony Armour after 20 levels or so), or to have certain encounters to scale differently (like large monsters or bosses being very powerful and always a certain amount ahead of you, or always at a certain and high stage). Generally you would want a game that is always challenging and only varies in difficulty slightly depending on your playstyle and the associated level.
In BG 3 it seems, and I guess this is easier to do with a more streamlined and linear game experience, they balance it in a way so that you are always in a certain level range when encounters happen.


A game where the enemies scale with you removes the entire reward from doing sidequests. Experience should make you stronger. So when you do sidequests and return to the main quest, you should be powerful. And when you keep playing the main quest, you'll get to the point where enemies become a challenge again.

And scaled trashy parties do not also drain your resources, they also drain the fun. Why should the same party that challenged you at the beginning of the game still be challenging, when you basically became an experienced fighter or mage? That's stupid.

And you should be locked out of regions if you are too weak. In other words, what's even the point of levelling up and gaining experience, if it just becomes just another attack that just looks different?



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Originally Posted by Daniel213
A game where the enemies scale with you removes the entire reward from doing sidequests. Experience should make you stronger. So when you do sidequests and return to the main quest, you should be powerful. And when you keep playing the main quest, you'll get to the point where enemies become a challenge again.

And scaled trashy parties do not also drain your resources, they also drain the fun. Why should the same party that challenged you at the beginning of the game still be challenging, when you basically became an experienced fighter or mage? That's stupid.

And you should be locked out of regions if you are too weak. In other words, what's even the point of levelling up and gaining experience, if it just becomes just another attack that just looks different?


Well said. Level scaling just makes you feel like you don't progress. Numbers go up, but the level of challenge presented by a type of enemy is exactly the same. Most of the presented challange should be appropriate to a player's expected level at this point of the story, but there should also be fodder encounters and ones where you get your ass handed to you. Then you go back and have sweet revenge on that scary powerful monster. That's progression. And that way the world doesn't feel tailored to you.

Regarding BG3, however: does it really feel like level scaling? I remember the devs saying a definitive "no" to it.

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I have never liked level scaling. It feels extremely unsatisfying to like run into a late game town guard who is harder to beat than a dragon you beat at a much earlier stage of the game.

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Yeah they should defenitly just make npc's and monsters to be true to their CR, and then see how they will add said monsters to their encounters. Having 1 amongst the group thats 'the leader' is finr from a gaming perspective but usually in dnd monsters are just bossed around by bigger scarier monsters.

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Originally Posted by Daniel213
Originally Posted by VincentNZ
Originally Posted by Daniel213
Quote
Does that make sense?

Of course. It's called level scaling and many shit games do that, because it's the lazy way of balancing a game.


It always depends on how you do it and there are pros and cons for both sides. If they do not level with you, skipped content like sidequests, or even the main questline for people who get sidetracked constantly will just be a breeze at later stages. You can also lock players out of certain regions, quests and other parts of the game, because the player can not at all beat them. Making everything (or nearly everything) scale to your level means that fights are always of the same or similar challenge and the whole game is open to you from the start, regardless of you playing only the main quest, or are a completionist or have a tendency to avoid fighting (and therefore XP). On the other hand you might have a challenging fight all the time, even against a pretty trashy party of caverats, that drained a substantial part of your resources and time for a reward that is totally not worth the effort.

Generally a mix of the two is the best approach. Like not having gear scale the same as levels (in Oblivion you would only fight people in Ebony Armour after 20 levels or so), or to have certain encounters to scale differently (like large monsters or bosses being very powerful and always a certain amount ahead of you, or always at a certain and high stage). Generally you would want a game that is always challenging and only varies in difficulty slightly depending on your playstyle and the associated level.
In BG 3 it seems, and I guess this is easier to do with a more streamlined and linear game experience, they balance it in a way so that you are always in a certain level range when encounters happen.


A game where the enemies scale with you removes the entire reward from doing sidequests. Experience should make you stronger. So when you do sidequests and return to the main quest, you should be powerful. And when you keep playing the main quest, you'll get to the point where enemies become a challenge again.

And scaled trashy parties do not also drain your resources, they also drain the fun. Why should the same party that challenged you at the beginning of the game still be challenging, when you basically became an experienced fighter or mage? That's stupid.

And you should be locked out of regions if you are too weak. In other words, what's even the point of levelling up and gaining experience, if it just becomes just another attack that just looks different?




You are thinking in absolutes. And I precisely pointed out the flaws and advantages of both systems. You can easily turn your argument around. A game where the enemies do not scale removes the entire reward from doing side quests. As you will just at some point become too powerful for the game, where nothing proves a challenge.
As for trash mob parties, yep they drain resources, but fun? I do not see that. And again, I am not saying the caverat or random mugger Nr.1 should suddenly turn into gods of their profession with +5 Crom Faer or Carsomyr at their disposal. Especially if they have a storyline attached or are quest-related, they should always pose a challenge. This does not mean they have to be the same/higher level or outnumber you tenfold. But they should also not be throwaway garbage, because this makes the whole encounter and the quest obsolete.

Thing is people like to play the game how they want to, that is why locking them out of regions is not a popular thing and neither is putting every enemy into a suit of dragon armour. At the same time people do not like to breeze through content that they outleveled or getting mugged in the night by six street urchins on Athkatla streets that are now on steroids. Balance is key, so you have both a feeling of progression and getting more powerful, while also prove that combat is a challenge and rewarding throughout the game, however you go about it.


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