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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
What everything Pupito said. It gets worse because you don't have a bedroll to get full hp before each encounter, you also don't do spellslots in DOS to be full on resources each fight, in this game you do and unless you wanna do full rest after every fight, you don't go in with full resources. That with the shitty encounter design they have with a bunch of archers constantly being high up and throwing bombs and special arrows at you just keeps compounding the issue.


That's the thing with implementing a rules system half way - you change the resource management, but not the encounter structure, and you run into problems. If it was the other way around - ie. reducing the options of enemies and players down to what actually would be accessible to low level D&D characters/monsters, but kept the "always full after every ecounter" resource management of DOS, it wouldn't work either.

In D&D5e, everything is geared towards the number of level appropriate encounters a party can pull off until the next short or long rest... raise the enemies CR, or add other challenges like environmental or social encounters, and you reduce that number. It's really not that complicated... certainly more easily plannable then it was in earlier D&D rule sets.

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Originally Posted by LJ0451
This.
Also D&D may be having a massive surge in popularity, but this game has a huge appeal outside that, from Bioware fans to Witcher fans, to cRPG players to D&D players. And this will be one of the biggest and first fantasy RPGs to launch on a new generation of consoles so there's that audience too!
The most important thing is a fun and balanced single-player game based on 5E, not necessarily sticking to it for better or worse, but adapting it where needed to make a more engaging experience for everyone.


But the halfway approach is what they have done now. And people dislike it. And believe me, Witcher fans would go ballistic if you turned the next Witcher into a DoS style game too. Which is understandable. When you slap a franchise name on something, people will expect certain things. Neither do I think it is smart to cater to the lowest common denominator. That is what ruined the Dragon Age series past Origins.

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Originally Posted by Ascorius
It is interesting to see the argument from the other side. For me, the game is worse off because of the heavy DoS influence. The hybrid system, a blend between DoS style and D&D, is probably the real culprit. People on both sides (not everyone of course) are unhappy with it. I think they need to go harder in either direction.


Honestly, yeah. I enjoyed DOS:2 a ton, super fun combat experience, boring story. If they just took that combat 1:1 it'd be more enjoyable than it is currently.

If they went full 5e, it'd be more enjoyable than it is currently. (<- this is my preferred option)

Mixing it just doesn't work imo

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Originally Posted by QuietCountryCafe


Honestly, yeah. I enjoyed DOS:2 a ton, super fun combat experience, boring story. If they just took that combat 1:1 it'd be more enjoyable than it is currently.

If they went full 5e, it'd be more enjoyable than it is currently. (<- this is my preferred option)

Mixing it just doesn't work imo


+1. They need to make up their mind between a DOS based system or a D&D one. But merging those 2 has been very clunky and not working at all IMO.

As for the story side of things... I've played like 30 hours of Early Access, here's what I did :
saving myself from a crash with some luck
exploring caves, forests, for the sake of exploring
trying to save a girl captured by a hag only to leave her walking away with her husband now turned golem just because the outcomes planned by the game didn't even allow my PC to try some persuasion check to do something else without being a major douche
trying to decide which would be better between helping a former paladin worshipping a devil and helping a devil escaped from hell, because, you know, everyone's evil and morally gray and you shouldn't feel good about anything too yada yada
killing goblins and gnolls
trying to help a druid grove from going nuts
all ot this without the world around me really caring for it at all


Now let's compare to what I would have done in the same 30+ hours in, let's say BG2:
escaping from jail
rescuing people from an illusionary world and being praised for it
rescuing a castle fallen to trolls and becoming lord of it
rescuing a druid grove from shadow druids and becoming hero of the town
exploring an old temple of Pelor fallen to shadows and restoring it to its full glory
getting caught in the middle of a war between guilds which want me to side with them
wiping out slavers and dismantling their business to save enslaved kids and beasts, becoming a hero around the neighbourhood
getting in the sewers and dismantling a cult worshipping a beholder, restoring peace in the temple district


For now, I just don't have the same feeling of accomplishment at all playing BG3, both in terms of gameplay and story.




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OP you need just wait DOS 3

simple

Last edited by arion; 12/10/20 09:15 AM.
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No op the problem is they have never played dnd.

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Originally Posted by Sylvius the Mad
Originally Posted by Zpawn
Also I think somebody mentioned it earlier, but does it really feel rewarding when you pass a check by plain luck?

If you've found yourself in a situation where you shouldn't be, absolutely. I remember in the Tales of the Sword Coast expansion for BG I was approaching the end of Durlag's Tower and I needed a rest, but thought I'd open one more door to see what was through it, and it was a Demonknight.

I was doomed. I had no reason to think this was a winnable encounter. Everyone was hurt and I was nearly out of spells and my wizard-heavy party definitely wasn't prepared to fight a think with 95% magic resistance. In desperation, Viconia (who had killed Kivan earlier in the dungeon, so I was also down an archer) fired a Hold Monster at the Demonknight, and despite the fiend's 95% magic resistance, it landed. Held, it was defenseless before Coran's arrows (sped up by his Boots of Speed) and the three wizards collectively hurling 9 darts per round.

I won that fight, and I will remember it until the day I die. So yes, it does feel rewarding to pass checks by pure luck.


Fair point, but I was referring more to the dialogue check. Like let`s say you fail a DC 15 persuasion check with your +5 to charisma warlock. And when you try again with your fighter, you succeed because you rolled a nat 20, even though he has -1 to charisma. It`s just too big of an inconsistency. For me, it makes it redundant whatever character I use for check, because it feels like "hey no matter what character I use, if I roll good, it won`t matter my bonuses, so i`ll be better off just using whomever"
That`s why I think there should be a difference between failing a DC 15 with a 14, and failing the DC 15 with a 1 or 2.

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Originally Posted by arion
OP you need just wait DOS 3

simple

Originally Posted by wpmaura
No op the problem is they have never played dnd.


Can we knock it off with the gatekeeping shitposting? Posts like this are not helpful or constructive at all. We're all here to offer our opinionated suggestions for improving the game. Telling people to wait half a decade for a completely different game or doing their homework by playing a completely different format of game is not useful to anybody.

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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Nearly exactly my thoughts.
That D&D system drains away all the fun. 1 action,<bonus meeh action>, move, pass. Dice checks.
DOS2 action point combat gameplay is so much more fun.
Larian just add SOMETHING to that 5e system, spice things up!!


No, it really isn't. And those blasted surfaces ruined everything.



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Originally Posted by clanpot

Telling people to wait half a decade for a completely different game or doing their homework by playing a completely different format of game is not useful to anybody.


they want different game, so yes wait it is only solution for them


Last edited by arion; 12/10/20 02:08 PM.
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I have to disagree with a lot of OP's points, but one thing I would agree on is:

Originally Posted by Milkfred

4. Stat/Class (Im)Balance

The fact that Charisma controls all of the 'roleplaying' skills is pretty much absurd. I understand that it's how the 5e system is, but that's my point - the system sucks when it's being run by a machine. If the Nettie scenario was a tabletop session, I'd probably be allowed to posit that I could intimidate Nettie with Strength. And I mean, look at the way you talk to her in that scene, all about how you'll destroy the whole grove - if that isn't a threat based on how immediately physically imposing you are, I don't know what is.


However I'm not sure that this is really a fault with 5E, it's a fault with Larian's implementation. Skill checks in 5E are not necessarily supposed to be tied to a specific attribute, It is explicitly supposed to be "Make a Skill (Attribute) Check", and the Attribute involved can/should vary as needed. The situation mentioned (an Intimidation (Strength) check) is specifically mentioned in the book as an option. Similarly other skills could be used in other ways i.e. to break the abjurative magics
surrounding Shadowheart's cage early on the game allows you to make an Arcana check to identify them (no matter what you do you can't get her out though), another way to do this would have been an Arcana (Dexterity) check to correctly erase the right rune, a tumbler or strongman would make a Performance check with Strength or Dexterity instead of Charisma.
Just because a skill looks to be tied to a specific attribute doesn't mean that every check would necessarily rely upon that attribute.

Last edited by praxidicae; 12/10/20 01:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by clanpot
Originally Posted by arion
OP you need just wait DOS 3

simple

Originally Posted by wpmaura
No op the problem is they have never played dnd.


Can we knock it off with the gatekeeping shitposting? Posts like this are not helpful or constructive at all. We're all here to offer our opinionated suggestions for improving the game. Telling people to wait half a decade for a completely different game or doing their homework by playing a completely different format of game is not useful to anybody.


I mean that really depends, I for one do not want anything DOS related in my DnD game. Not that I don't like DOS I just dont want BG3 to be anything like that game, because I want a game close to DnD.

So its fair to say, this is not the game you want, its not gatekeeping, its pointing out that there are at least two factions in the forums wanting two different games.

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Originally Posted by praxidicae
I have to disagree with a lot of OP's points, but one thing I would agree on is:

Originally Posted by Milkfred

4. Stat/Class (Im)Balance

The fact that Charisma controls all of the 'roleplaying' skills is pretty much absurd. I understand that it's how the 5e system is, but that's my point - the system sucks when it's being run by a machine. If the Nettie scenario was a tabletop session, I'd probably be allowed to posit that I could intimidate Nettie with Strength. And I mean, look at the way you talk to her in that scene, all about how you'll destroy the whole grove - if that isn't a threat based on how immediately physically imposing you are, I don't know what is.


However I'm not sure that this is really a fault with 5E, it's a fault with Larian's implementation. Skill checks in 5E are not necessarily supposed to be tied to a specific attribute, It is explicitly supposed to be "Make a Skill (Attribute) Check", and the Attribute involved can/should vary as needed. The situation mentioned (an Intimidation (Strength) check) is specifically mentioned in the book as an option. Similarly other skills could be used in other ways i.e. to break the abjurative magics
surrounding Shadowheart's cage early on the game allows you to make an Arcana check to identify them (no matter what you do you can't get her out though), another way to do this would have been an Arcana (Dexterity) check to correctly erase the right rune, a tumbler or strongman would make a Performance check with Strength or Dexterity instead of Charisma.
Just because a skill looks to be tied to a specific attribute doesn't mean that every check would necessarily rely upon that attribute.


What you're thinking of, with the exception of a DEX-based Arcana check (what?) is simply substituting other skills that would accomplish the same purpose, with the exception of STR-based Intimidation, which is explicitly mentioned in the DMG. Your tumbler or strongman wouldn't use STR- or DEX-based Performance checks, they would use Athletics or Acrobatics to accomplish the same purpose, or just straight up STR or DEX checks. Flexibility is there, but only if it makes sense - a DEX-based Arcana check to get lucky and wipe away the correct rune makes no sense, but say having the Wisdom to have perceived these kinds of patterns before, an argument could be made to do a WIS-based Arcana check, or simply perform Perception or Investigation, depending on what you're proficient in.

Honestly, I don't think that's something we could get in a cRPG without being inundated with choice overload and decision fatigue.

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I believe (i haven't checked BG3 follows this)
But as you level up you do indeed gain a proficiency score improvement. Up to +6, so along with a +5 from a max ability score you can get a +11 to an ability score.

Of course Bards/Rogues get expertise so they can max out at a whopping +17 at max levels, which trivialises 90% of checks.

I did expect this ability score discrepancy but I mental forced myself to expect fails and have to deal with them. It's made the game more enjoyable for sure. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer a Disco Elysium or perhaps a Fallout(certain score is guaranteed success) style instead.

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for dialog skill checks, i would do it like pathfinder kingmaker handles it, include the stats of the other characters in your party.

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Originally Posted by Charod
for dialog skill checks, i would do it like pathfinder kingmaker handles it, include the stats of the other characters in your party.

that would be nice.
where it makes sense, every party member should roll for the check.
or just do it with every check, if it is too hard to discern it for every check.
would reduce a lot of frustration, that people have right now, and it wouldn't be that far away, from how it is played in PnP.

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Counter point to the title of the thread

"The Biggest Draw for BG3 is 5e"

Had never head of Divinity: Original Sin 2 until I heard they were making a new Baldur's Gate by the people who made this other widely acclaimed RPG. Bought DOS2 just to check out this company's work and was decidedly "meh" about it. Barely escaped the island and had really lost all interest in the design decisions made to take it away from or make it feel distinct from other DnD like RPG's.

If Larian had wanted to make another DOS I'd be all for them taking all the creative license they want to with such a game I have no doubt they will do so again in the future, seems to be a popular franchise. But they wanted to make a Baldur's Gate game and that comes with the understanding that your game witll try to fit into what the franchise did so well.

-It brought the feel of PnP DnD to the computer, it wasn't perfect, no one thinks it was, but it trying it stuck as closely as it could to the rules and that centered it squarely in an large fanbase of people who already loved Dungeon's and Dragons
-It provided a humble beginning expanded into an epic story that carried us all the way to epic levels.
-It provided many different fleshed out NPC's, some more usable than others but there's no one perfect party, depends on what your class is, what alignment your playing, if you want more spellpower or physical power on your team.
-It took some risks on changing things from PnP like real time with pause and locks that required a threshhold to open not just rolling percent chance that changed it from being a completely faithfull Pen and Paper adaption to a fun computer game. But those risks didn't take away from it feeling like a game about DnD.

I'm hoping these are the kinds of principles that BG3 is being based on, so far I'm impressed, classes, spells, ability scores, feats, skills, there are a lot of things about this game that have been changed from DOS2 to fit 5E.

I hope they keep going, surfaces are decidedly not DnD, actions in combat (dip, jump, shove, help in particular), eating to restore health (I feel this compensates for all the surfaces you have to deal with, I'd like to see them both gone but don't take 1 without the other), super powered cantrips. All of these things may be fun, but they are not DnD.

I have a rogue buzz saw atm, take the mobility feet on Asterion and with a bonus action he can move 80' get behind anyone Sneak Attack, get behind someone else and offhand attack them as well. While fun, and super effective it's really not DnD.

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y, having charisma as the only dialogue controlling stat is pretty shitty. It is actually one of the reasons why Fallout 4 was terrible imo.

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The problem isn't 5e. The problem is that Larian grafted as much of 5e that could fit on DOS as they could and ejected the rest.

In doing so, they removed all of the elements of 5e that make it unique. This game barely feels like D&D at all.

Last edited by tsundokugames; 12/10/20 04:56 PM.
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Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Many people find that Pathfinder:kingmaker to be the closest thing to table top D&D like gameplay in a video game, and love it for that.
I find the game very slow, mathematical, drowned with stats, difficult and definetly not fun. Perfectionist and simulation/numbers freaks llove these kind of games.
I really hope BG3 does not become that. Anything closer to DOS2 is great in my book.


Pathfinder is basically D&D3.5, though, which was such a big departure from AD&D in terms of complexity that it bordered on rules clutter. D&D5e, in many ways, was a major step back from that, to a simpler, more streamlined experience.


I have almost 400 hours in Pathfinder. Mainly because I crave anything TTRPG related. Its a slow game. Its really had to restart and go back to one on that thing. It is good, and has a lot of good stuff, but the pace. is. brutal.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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