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A fire bolt really shouldn't cause a fire AoE, it makes for absolutely ridiculous damage. 1d10 1d6 for the cantrip damage, then we take an immediate 1d4 for being in the AoE, then another 1d4 when leaving the AoE, and yet another 1d4 because you are still on fire for one turn. That can easily kill a level 2 character. It's a cantrip, please make it do cantrip damage (unless I'm standing in grease, that's fair game).

Last edited by DirgeNovak; 11/10/20 04:52 PM. Reason: fixed some math
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Yep. Two enemies were close by, I used a firebolt and I did 13 damage PLUS the possibility of an additional 2d4, using an attack which is supposed to do 1 to 10. Direct Hit plus 2x Fire surface plus 2x Burning tick.

One of the enemies died from burning and another one could have if I hadn't finished it off with a different attack. The total possible damage range from that one attack is 5 to 20, on an attack which by rules, is supposed to do less than 5 damage 40 percent of the time.

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Note that the damage of the spell itself is 1d6 to make up for the 1d4 AoE.
Not that I think it shouldn't be changed back - it most definitely should.

There are actually a bunch of other broken things, like I found some gloves (it think it's gloves) that increase the damage of every dart created by Magic Missile by 1d4 psychic (making it (2d4+1)*3 guaranteed damage). Lots of fun mowing down single targets, not so much when I realize that the only reason I'm able to make progress is having OP gear.

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I totally agree. Interacting with existing ground effects is totally fine (igniting Grease, freezing water/blood), but creating ground effects on its own is not acceptable.

They're called cantrips, by the way. Make sure to call them that so people know what you're talking about more easily.

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Originally Posted by Raivorus
Note that the damage of the spell itself is 1d6 to make up for the 1d4 AoE.
Not that I think it shouldn't be changed back - it most definitely should.

There are actually a bunch of other broken things, like I found some gloves (it think it's gloves) that increase the damage of every dart created by Magic Missile by 1d4 psychic (making it (2d4+1)*3 guaranteed damage). Lots of fun mowing down single targets, not so much when I realize that the only reason I'm able to make progress is having OP gear.

It missed the 1d6 damage tidbit, but the point still stands. You take the AoE damage three times regardless of what you do (once at the time of the attack, once as you leave the AoE and then you're still on fire for another turn after leaving it), so that's up to 18 damage, enough to kill most level 2 characters with a single attack. It's bonkers.

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I tend to agree with the OP as well.

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+1

As firebolt stands now its damage reminds me of the 5th level spell firewall based on how long the fire stays on the ground. Cantrips are intended to be a caster version of a basic attack and scale appropriately at higher levels. As a matter of fact I find that using firebolt and the like are often more detrimental to my melee characters who now take friendly fire damage from the AOE.

My personal preference would be remove all AOE from spells that are not meant to have them - I already HATE the amount of ground effects in combat (especially since every goblin archer seems to have an unlimited supply of fire arrows).

If Larian is hard set on keeping it, at least limit the ground effect to 1 turn and then it goes away. DOS:2 was the greatest game I could never complete due to the insane amount of ground effect during every battle. It became a long drawn out battle of attrition based on moving out of this or that type of surface...that's not D&D.

Last edited by Old-School-Gamer; 11/10/20 05:19 PM.
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AoE / surfaces on arrows needs to go away as well.

I'm getting more and more annoyed with the surfaces. Those are powerful effects and they need to be reserved for powerful spells and RARE items.

E.g. Ice Storm is a 4th level spell that creates a surface. Thats cool and fine. But cantrips and goblins spamming elemental surfaces is not.

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Agreed. Acid Splash's benefit in the tabletop came from the fact that it was a cantrip that could hit two targets that were close together. I feel like it should operate kinda how magic missile operates. You select an initial target and then select one more target within 1.5 meters of the first target. But having it as a huge AOE that can hit multiple targets? It's too much for a cantrip.

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+1 to OP.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
AoE / surfaces on arrows needs to go away as well.

I'm getting more and more annoyed with the surfaces. Those are powerful effects and they need to be reserved for powerful spells and RARE items.

E.g. Ice Storm is a 4th level spell that creates a surface. Thats cool and fine. But cantrips and goblins spamming elemental surfaces is not.

Agreed. It was fine in Divinity (though that's still easily my least favorite thing in those games' combat), but it doesn't gel with how 5e combat works at all. A fire arrow making extra fire damage is fine, but shouldn't set you on fire for more turns and especially should not set stone on fire

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The fire is annoying, but I really like hitting someone, then Ray of Frost to freeze the pool of blood under them, before finally coming in with a coup de grace critical while they're prone. frown

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There is a huge 4 page thread on this already, but I'll throw in a +1 here as well.

The cantrips that bother me:
Ray of Frost: There is a huge difference between losing 10 ft. of speed when you're hit by a ray of frost and falling prone even when it misses due to ice forming on the ground.

Acid Splash: Giving you the ability to hit 2 targets if they are next to each other is something radically different from a -2 on AC! 2 AC is a shield's worth of armor! And you don't even have to get hit, just stumbling through the puddle is enough.

Firebolt: From wonderful little blast spell in 5e to horrendously annoying in BG3. Also really unclear how much damage the secondary effect does, but It's killed several of my chars so far.

Friends: It's annoying to do, but it gives you advantage on every Charisma check that comes up in conversation, no consequences. In 5e the target of this cantrip will become hostile after the spell ends. This should force you to consider when and on whom to use it. The only thing limiting you now is your memory and how often you want to go trough the repetition of casting it every time you're about to speak to someone.

Please, Larian, remove these effects from the Cantrips. By all means let yourself go with spells like Fireballs, Lightning bolts, Sleet storms, Meteor swarms or whatever more we'll be able to toss across the battlefield in the future. These "leveled" spells are powerful magics and should make an impact. They are also limited by spell slots which naturally contains their madness. (Eyes the sorcerer in BG3's future suspiciously)

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I'm going to go against the grain and disagree.

Cantrips didn't do enough in 5E. I like the additions here that really make them feel worth using. Especially when every weapon has a special attack that it can do just for having it. It feels like both warriors and spellcasters have some real tactical options rather than just "do damage", and I think it's a good thing. Especially given how 5E monsters, after the first couple levels, tend to be giant piles of hit points, having extra tactical options makes combat a lot less of a slog than it is on the table.

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I'm neutral - part of me likes the redesign we got going on in BG3 because it actually promotes differences between your cantrips - like, aside from a die of damage and Ray of Frost reducing movement speed... there's not a huge difference between Ray of Frost and Fire Bolt. They're both "Point and shoot" cantrips where Fire Bolt will ignite whatever item is being targeted as long as it isn't being worn or carried. Basically, I like this change because it adds to controlling the battlefield as a wizard and trying to be more creative than just "This is my heavy crossb- er, I mean my Ray of Frost spell". The part that's against it is... well, yeah, AoE on cantrips is pretty powerful - why wouldn't I make more use of my cantrips than my big spells when my cantrips tend to do more for me?

I think, right now with us only being able to reach level 4/5, it's too early to call whether or not the change needs to be applied. We need to get into the real meat of the wizards and sorcerers with their Big spells rather than the few level 1 and 2 spells we have. Like, if later on Fireball doesn't cause a similar effect to Fire Bolt - when it was way more of a reason to - then some changes do need to be made, haha.

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Originally Posted by Zer0
I'm going to go against the grain and disagree.

Cantrips didn't do enough in 5E. I like the additions here that really make them feel worth using. Especially when every weapon has a special attack that it can do just for having it. It feels like both warriors and spellcasters have some real tactical options rather than just "do damage", and I think it's a good thing. Especially given how 5E monsters, after the first couple levels, tend to be giant piles of hit points, having extra tactical options makes combat a lot less of a slog than it is on the table.


Cantrips do what they have to in 5e - replace a fighter's swing of a sword or a ranger's shot from a bow. Adding more to them is making them too powerful, especially since the effects these cantrips provide match or even surpass the effects of high level spells - effects which are literally the purpose of said high level spells.

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Absolutely and so.does all the other are weapons its crazy how this is a grenade lobbing game

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Yeah surface gameplay needs to go away. It gets a bit silly in combat with just how drenched surfaces can be and is a divinity thing not a 5e thing. Even then not a fun Divinity thing.

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agreed 100 +1


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