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+1

Start out with 5E rules THEN change what doesn't work.

As it is, balance is out the window from the get go with Larian seemingly not even playtesting 5E rules as written and just throwing in 30% divinity forcing a bunch of extra time and work spent on gettting us closer to tabletop.

Personally I don't mind the high stakes from lvl 1. It's fun to get going quickly with the story and I still got my generic goblins for low levels. I WOULD prefer it if we started off a bit gentler but the KOTOR games and Dragon age and Pillars of eternity (as well as BG 1 to an extent) all start off with a really high level stakes plot hook. Illithids are cool and appropriate and I expect to return to Avernus in later acts of BG3 so a little teaser is a cool start. (Already saw a "skip prologue" option request on reddit though xD)

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Just adding my voice that I too think this game feels too much like Divinity, too little like Baldur's Gate.

I will say - and perhaps this is the result of 21 years of starting pnp campaigns that rarely get far - that I actually enjoy getting a balls-to-the-wall opening, without the usual slow start to adventure. But it goes too far and prompts the question - how the heck is Astarion a level 1 character anyway?

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Originally Posted by Bluthtonian
Just adding my voice that I too think this game feels too much like Divinity, too little like Baldur's Gate.

I will say - and perhaps this is the result of 21 years of starting pnp campaigns that rarely get far - that I actually enjoy getting a balls-to-the-wall opening, without the usual slow start to adventure. But it goes too far and prompts the question - how the heck is Astarion a level 1 character anyway?


That's what I was saying, but maybe it's a symptom of the times... almost nobody does "slow and deliberate" anymore. If something doesn't go BOOOM from second one, it's called boring really fast.

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Seems like every character in the game is *special* somehow. Your companions are all special outliers and exceptions to the rules for what one could expect given race, class, background, and especially starting level. Ditto for all your followers. Ditto for monsters, whether intellect devourers or goblins. The ONLY character in the whole game that is NOT special in any way, and often is mundane and boring, is yourself (as a custom PC).

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Originally Posted by "WarBaby2"
For me, personally... it frankly starts with the intro/main menu. The logo is right, the music and background aren't. Neither does the music riff on the classic Raldur's Gate theme (which BG2 did), the moving, 3d background: 100% Divinity OS.

After the game starts, we are frontloaded into a high octane, Planescape'esque action scene. Too much! Beginning a new D&D adventure should have a level appropriate feel. Yea, sure, the whole plane-chase aboard a Nautiloid, hunted by Githyanki raiders on red dragons is ultra cool, but, why not at least flash back to a "a few days earlier" prologue right after, where you can familiarize yourself with your character and the actual world for Toril for 2 or 3 levels, before you are pushed into crazy, Illithid mind bug, eternal Blood War, crazy territory? Remember BG1? You started of going through a more or less lazy day in Candle Keep... with assassins hounding you... before sh*t hit the fan.

Next, it's the whole look an feel of the UI. No right click interaction with character portraits, the inability to select your characters properly, that still very ropy chaining system. Inventory management is also very unintuitive. Equipping weapons and gear is... interesting. Spells scrolls are far too abundant and can be used by every character. 1000 interactive objects in the world, all are full of trash or outright empty. All of that worked so much better even 20 years ago in BG1.

Which leads me into: The rules: Yea, no. The basics are there. We have dice rolls, (very basic) character sheets, a few races, classes, spells and special abilities... but as soon as that's translated into actual gameplay, it's pure bouncy, wacky fun. Everything burns, explodes, falls over, jumps,... just like in Divinity! There is some nice stuff, like that multi faceted dialogues, branching here and there according to who speeks - if they can restrain the writing to stuff that characters in Faerun would actually say. But % chances to hit? Visible perception rolls? Hiding in more or less, plain sight? Bonus actions for everyone? Jeezas!

...and lastly: The world, the story and the characters. Wow, what a mess. I mean, sure, some of it has to be put down to game's status as EA, but also - sadly - to writing. First and foremost: The whole Ilithid tadpole gimmick is shaky from minute one, because... how to put that: Aside the fact that it highly convoluted and probably could be solved in a few, quick and easy ways by a competent group and DM, if it came along in a proper campaign, it completely roots the story in something outside of the world you are supposed to play in. Ilithids are creatures of the planes and Underdark, not Fearun proper. You are a first level adventurer. You shouldn't deal with stuff like that until level 10 plus. Heck, your companions (aside maybe La'zel) and you shouldn't even know about stuff like that without extensive research into obscure lore. It's like if in BG1, you not only immediately got the info that you are a Baal spawn, but also got a party of other god choosen and spawns together, jumped through portal to the plane of fire, and dealt with a conflict between a group of thieflings and Azers... that's D&D "campaign whiplash". So, right after you took that gut punch, and met a possy of the most convoluted adventuring buddies ever, you are reproached by a f-ing demi-fiend/cambion/whatever who immediately offers you an infernal deal! No adventuring down the Sword Coast for a few days/months, solving problems for local hamlets, making a name for yourself, learning to know your companions... instead you have tee with motherf-ing Volo, 5 hours in... and no, that's not the same as meeting Elmister on you way to the Friendly Arm.That one was a nice nod, the other is a lore sledgehammer to the face. See where I'm going with that?

Bottom line: You know who does stories like we got in BG3 right now? Larian, in their Divinity games...


You should post this on /r/BaldursGate3, to be clear I agree with you in everything you have said about the game.

Last edited by Jota; 12/10/20 07:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Seems like every character in the game is *special* somehow. Your companions are all special outliers and exceptions to the rules for what one could expect given race, class, background, and especially starting level. Ditto for all your followers. Ditto for monsters, whether intellect devourers or goblins. The ONLY character in the whole game that is NOT special in any way, and often is mundane and boring, is yourself (as a custom PC).


Yeah there definitely should have been a more careful discussion at Larian about whether their Character Origin idea was an appropriate fit for a series whose players often spent as long in the character creator rolling stats as they did playing game. I don't think it is, but at this point in the development, I doubt they're willing to drop it. Spending so much time on that was probably a mistake though, as it undoubtedly consumed resources that could've been used on more choices and consequences relevant to any given Custom PC.

That said, I've thought a lot about this. And in BG 1&2, most of the companions had something strange going for them. You have a petrified cleric from a time long past, a Witch and her Barbarian bodyguard from a strange, alien culture (not to mention the Giant Miniature Space Hamster), a member of what is essentially Faerun's CIA, a Winged Elf whose race is almost entirely extinct, the descendant of a dimension-hopping Archwizard, etc. There's no shortage of that almost juvenile brand of special you're talking about in BG 1&2... I think the difference you're sussing out is that in BG 1&2, nobody is as pressed for time or resources as you are off the start.

That is to say, either NPCs are recruited for the purpose of completing a quest, or they don't get in your face about their personal quest until something triggers it. It's completely different from having these NPCs sign up, and then one night of camping in they start telling you that you'd better hurry up because there's a bomb in their chest that's going to explode, or you better get moving because they have something way more important to do than talk to you going on in Baldur's Gate, etc. BG3 seems particularly aggressive about reminding you that you aren't all that important to these people, which is a weird, uncomfortable emotion to try to evoke in a single-player RPG. Weird and uncomfortable emotions are fine... if they exist to express some larger theme, and are managed with great intention. And I don't think that's the case here, it seems like these characters were written to be the center of someone's attention for the sake of the Character Origin mechanic.

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Originally Posted by KingWilhelm
Originally Posted by Koshea


Would you let your players push someone away from threatening a caster and knock them down as a bonus action, then walk up and take their normal attack action with advantage because they are prone?



Corrected:
Would you let your players push someone away from threatening a caster and knock them down as a bonus action, then walk up behind them and take their normal attack as a backstab action with advantage because they are prone?

I even forgot that you can push them into fire for more damage on top laugh


See, that what I been saying. Would most human DMs let you get away with some of the mechanics BG3 is making normal? I am OK with surface effects for higher level spells, You want Fireball to leave an area of fire, sure. Cantrips doing that, please no.

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Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
See, that what I been saying. Would most human DMs let you get away with some of the mechanics BG3 is making normal? I am OK with surface effects for higher level spells, You want Fireball to leave an area of fire, sure. Cantrips doing that, please no.


No, at least I wouldn't... but not exactly out of the same reason it doesn't work it the game. You see, there is such a thing as item durability in D&D, it has been toned down in 5e, but technically it's still there, and, as soon as something burns (from fire or acid), it takes damage... the floor, character's cloths, gear,... see the problem already? Player's don't take kindly to having their precious gear burnt to ashes. That's why the general rule, especially as far as fire and acid damage goes, always was: When it's able to catch fire quickly and easily(!)(think paper, parchment, etc.), the player may roll a saving through for it, otherwise the fire produced by, say a flame bolt, flaming hands, fire ball, etc. is considered to be over far to quickly to realistically catch anything on fire...

Last edited by WarBaby2; 12/10/20 07:56 PM.
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Originally Posted by Koshea
Originally Posted by KingWilhelm
Originally Posted by Koshea


Would you let your players push someone away from threatening a caster and knock them down as a bonus action, then walk up and take their normal attack action with advantage because they are prone?



Corrected:
Would you let your players push someone away from threatening a caster and knock them down as a bonus action, then walk up behind them and take their normal attack as a backstab action with advantage because they are prone?



Sorry, your right, but who takes melee attacks in this game that aren't backstabs when you can literally jump right over their head or walk around them and always have that bonus to hit. Amazing forsight for 5e not to have facing be a thing and this kind of situation didn't happen.


I agree with the shove needing to be an action as it is in 5e. As for threatening a caster and knocking them into fire yes if the fire is there it can be used, and it's simply a tactic to get Mr./Ms. Squishy from being smashed by whats threatening them. and it can be done in 5e through a contest of strength vs. dex, dex vs str, str vs str, or any combo of them.

I personally think jumping is fine, but the disengage with it needs to be taken off so the rogues abilities can come into play more.

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Originally Posted by Jota
You should post this on /r/BaldursGate3, to be clear I agree with you in everything you have said about the game.


Did... they don't like me very much over there. laugh Ah, I dunno, maybe I was a bit too harsh... hm, nah.

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I keep seeing people wanting it more this way or that, and this is just another example.

I think where it sits, right in the middle, is the correct course of action. Sure things can be improved, but I think pushing it more in either direction is gonna alienate too many people.
And just to be clear, IF! they HAD! to push it, the correct decision, the business decision, would be to push it toward Divinity, NOT toward a more D&D oriented game. DOS2 sold far far more copies than any recent D&D games.
So those of you fighting for more this direction or that (seems to be more complaining to push it further toward D&D TBH) just know that if they Did decide to do this, toward DOS2 is absolutely the direction they'd take.

Last edited by TheWhiteRabbit; 12/10/20 08:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
See, that what I been saying. Would most human DMs let you get away with some of the mechanics BG3 is making normal? I am OK with surface effects for higher level spells, You want Fireball to leave an area of fire, sure. Cantrips doing that, please no.


No, at least I wouldn't... but not exactly out of the same reason it doesn't work it the game. You see, there is such a thing as item durability in D&D, it has been toned down in 5e, but technically it's still there, and, as soon as something burns (from fire or acid), it takes damage... the floor, character's cloths, gear,... see the problem already? Player's don't take kindly to having their precious gear burnt to ashes. That's why the general rule, especially as far as fire and acid damage goes, always was: When it's able to catch fire quickly and easily(!)(think paper, parchment, etc.), the player may roll a saving through for it, otherwise the fire produced by, say a flame bolt, flaming hands, fire ball, etc. is considered to be over far to quickly to realistically catch anything on fire...


If thats the case then why does it even do damage? Things would catch fire before doing damage. The heat alone would catch easily combustables on fire. After all at times it's not flame that catches things on fire, but heat, and/or ember/spark. that brief moment of heat, and fire that does you damage may also ignite something no matter if it's cantrip, or high level spell. In pen and paper I see toning it down because keeping track of whats on fire, what isn't, the damage it's causing and every other little thing, is not only a pain but slows down action, and forces you to micromanage the hell out of everything. (Note tried it before and warned players I was going to. They agreed, we all agreed nope needed adjusting). Yet in the game itself this is easily handled and doesn't slow down the action at all. Also gives you another tactical option (yes I'm a tactic whore sue me, and I looove more options). So instead of that spell simply doing nothing you now have a tiny amount of damage not spectacular but still in the long run you didn't just blow your load for nothing. Unless it's witch bolt, I cry when I miss with it.

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Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by Bluthtonian
Just adding my voice that I too think this game feels too much like Divinity, too little like Baldur's Gate.

I will say - and perhaps this is the result of 21 years of starting pnp campaigns that rarely get far - that I actually enjoy getting a balls-to-the-wall opening, without the usual slow start to adventure. But it goes too far and prompts the question - how the heck is Astarion a level 1 character anyway?


That's what I was saying, but maybe it's a symptom of the times... almost nobody does "slow and deliberate" anymore. If something doesn't go BOOOM from second one, it's called boring really fast.


I think there's a balance to be sought. I personally don't like the "starting village" at this point, if for no other reason than it covers stuff I'm already familiar with. But this goes too far. It kinda feels like Larian are trying too hard to impress, putting too much heavy metal into it.

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Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by Jota
You should post this on /r/BaldursGate3, to be clear I agree with you in everything you have said about the game.


Did... they don't like me very much over there. laugh Ah, I dunno, maybe I was a bit too harsh... hm, nah.



yeah I don't much like your posts half the time, and the other half there like omg he/she does make sense. can't win them all.

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Originally Posted by Bluthtonian
Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by Bluthtonian
Just adding my voice that I too think this game feels too much like Divinity, too little like Baldur's Gate.

I will say - and perhaps this is the result of 21 years of starting pnp campaigns that rarely get far - that I actually enjoy getting a balls-to-the-wall opening, without the usual slow start to adventure. But it goes too far and prompts the question - how the heck is Astarion a level 1 character anyway?


That's what I was saying, but maybe it's a symptom of the times... almost nobody does "slow and deliberate" anymore. If something doesn't go BOOOM from second one, it's called boring really fast.


I think there's a balance to be sought. I personally don't like the "starting village" at this point, if for no other reason than it covers stuff I'm already familiar with. But this goes too far. It kinda feels like Larian are trying too hard to impress, putting too much heavy metal into it.


whats wrong with Asterion being a lvl 1 character I missed something?

I like the opening as stated in another thread somewhere that I've lost. Though I also like slow and deliberate but thats something of the past. Like games lasting longer then 20 hours, and being original. hoping this one will be.

Last edited by clavis; 12/10/20 08:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by TheWhiteRabbit
I keep seeing people wanting it more this way or that, and this is just another example.

I think where it sits, right in the middle, is the correct course of action. Sure things can be improved, but I think pushing it more in either direction is gonna alienate too many people.
And just to be clear, IF! they HAD! to push it, the correct decision, the business decision, would be to push it toward Divinity, NOT toward a more D&D oriented game. DOS2 sold far far more copies than any recent D&D games.
So those of you fighting for more this direction or that (seems to be more complaining to push it further toward D&D TBH) just know that if they Did decide to do this, toward DOS2 is absolutely the direction they'd take.


That's the assumption... fact is, though, there hasen't been a faithful D&D5 adaption yet to judge from, so how would we even know that?

Besides, never underestimate the pull CRPGs still have, and there is big group of players (aka customers) that haven't been all to happy
with most of what has been done in the genre since the infinity engine games faded from the market... this includes the Pillars games and
everything Bioware did with the Dragon Age franchise since Origins.

Couple that with an old and new fanbase for everything Forgotten Realms (especially 1000s of novels), and we could very well be far beyond
what market the Divinity games ever attracted... seeing how wacky in nieche they famously have been.

Last edited by WarBaby2; 12/10/20 08:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by WarBaby2
Originally Posted by TheWhiteRabbit
I keep seeing people wanting it more this way or that, and this is just another example.

I think where it sits, right in the middle, is the correct course of action. Sure things can be improved, but I think pushing it more in either direction is gonna alienate too many people.
And just to be clear, IF! they HAD! to push it, the correct decision, the business decision, would be to push it toward Divinity, NOT toward a more D&D oriented game. DOS2 sold far far more copies than any recent D&D games.
So those of you fighting for more this direction or that (seems to be more complaining to push it further toward D&D TBH) just know that if they Did decide to do this, toward DOS2 is absolutely the direction they'd take.


That's the assumption... fact is, though, there hasen't been a faithful D&D5 adaption yet to judge from, so how would we even know that?

Besides, never underestimate the pull CRPGs still have, and there is big group of players (aka customers) that haven't been all to happy
with most of what has been done in the genre since the infinity engine games faded from the market... this includes the Pillars games and
everything Bioware did with the Dragon Age franchise since Origins.

Couple that with an old and new fanbase for everything Forgotten Realms (especially 1000s of novels), and we could verywell far beyond
what market the Divinity games ever attracted.


The major thing to consider is the fact that D&D as video games haven't usually been a thing. The last good ones are at least 10 years old, and even though Larian wanted to make a D&D game WoTC has a major say in it, and still does. If they don't like the direction they can cancel it, and Larian would be out of investment and capitol. Also some people (myself included) didn't like Divinity series, but like what they are doing to BG3.

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In regards to surface effects.


A) They shouldn't be an option for cantrips or arrows

B) They shouldn't occur in addition to direct hit damage from throwables or direct damage spells (your coating the enemy in a substance from a small bottle)

C) They shouldn't have guaranteed damage/debuffs or double up damage when trying to leave them (apply damage roll at turn end if inside zone maybe?)

D) They should only exist if 5e specifically states they do or at least limit them to spell critical hits (not cantrips)

E) They should have a more limited radius/quantity/duration (looking at you blood/fire)

F) They should not be nearly as widely available and accessibility/types/potencies/effects should be thematic to the creature in question (not every goblin is an alchemist)


P.S. bonus action jump/shove for everyone can screw off

Last edited by HYPERBOLOCO; 12/10/20 08:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Seems like every character in the game is *special* somehow. Your companions are all special outliers and exceptions to the rules for what one could expect given race, class, background, and especially starting level. Ditto for all your followers. Ditto for monsters, whether intellect devourers or goblins. The ONLY character in the whole game that is NOT special in any way, and often is mundane and boring, is yourself (as a custom PC).


I agree. I think this is obviously a consequence of the whole Origin system, which means that every potential companion character is designed like a protagonist - but a protagonist and a companion character aren't the same thing, and they should be neither conceived nor written the same way.

I agree with Yawning Spider that there was some of that in the original games, but it was framed differently. Crucially, I think there was also an element of discovery, as you met different characters over the game. Here, it's all frontloaded, so you're getting hit with everything at once. Meeting a guy during your adventures who turns out to be a vampire is one thing; having an entire team of competing, tiresomely adversarial protagonists to deal with right from the start along with all the other stuff is too much.

And it's not even that interesting. I think that's part of my problem. All these characters have a lot going on with them, but none of them is particularly involving, or weird or funny. They're busy, but boring. Which again adds to that "trying too hard" feel I get from the game.

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Originally Posted by clavis
The major thing to consider is the fact that D&D as video games haven't usually been a thing. The last good ones are at least 10 years old, and even though Larian wanted to make a D&D game WoTC has a major say in it, and still does. If they don't like the direction they can cancel it, and Larian would be out of investment and capitol. Also some people (myself included) didn't like Divinity series, but like what they are doing to BG3.


We'll see... I'm an alarmist, it's my nature, sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm not, and right now I don't have the best feeling regarding this project...

Last edited by WarBaby2; 12/10/20 08:20 PM.
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