Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Dec 2014
Location: Los Angeles, CA
apprentice
OP Offline
apprentice
Joined: Dec 2014
Location: Los Angeles, CA
I went through the first intellect devourer fight and as a DM I think this fight is a bit out of line. The player has two characters who will have around 8-10 HP on the average and the IDs will do enough to kill one of them in two blows. Ranged fire is unreliable, I generally do no more than 3 points of damage with a bow. I beat the fight by running a cleric alongside Blackheart with both using shield of faith and guiding bolt, options that I think surpass what most characters have available at that point in the game.


-Agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.
Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
You suppose to get it as a companion.
But i agree, in case of check failed, it should be already damaged, so player can easily finish it off.

Joined: Jul 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Jul 2020
Originally Posted by Libertine
I went through the first intellect devourer fight and as a DM I think this fight is a bit out of line. The player has two characters who will have around 8-10 HP on the average and the IDs will do enough to kill one of them in two blows. Ranged fire is unreliable, I generally do no more than 3 points of damage with a bow. I beat the fight by running a cleric alongside Blackheart with both using shield of faith and guiding bolt, options that I think surpass what most characters have available at that point in the game.


I agree, though my first Intellect Devourer problems began after the ship crashed. There were 3 or 4 of them. They were tearing my party to pieces.

Perhaps there should be an "Easy" mode, where you gain +5 on every die roll. Or "Very Easy" +10! I would like to be able to do a playthrough without saving.

Joined: Sep 2017
member
Offline
member
Joined: Sep 2017
To be fair, Shadowheart says it would be a hard fight and you should avoid them.

That being said, you can stealth by them. You can also stealth kill them, which I've done a lot.

Joined: Oct 2020
P
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
P
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Redwyrm
You suppose to get it as a companion.
But i agree, in case of check failed, it should be already damaged, so player can easily finish it off.


He's talking about the brain monster fight you encounter right after the ship crash and recruiting Shadowheart, not the one you can get as a prologue companion.

Joined: Oct 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
I always stealth climb to high ground and range attack them, never had any problems. You can also blow the canister with fire to make it even easier.


Necromancy is just recycling...
Joined: Oct 2020
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Libertine
I went through the first intellect devourer fight and as a DM I think this fight is a bit out of line. The player has two characters who will have around 8-10 HP on the average and the IDs will do enough to kill one of them in two blows. Ranged fire is unreliable, I generally do no more than 3 points of damage with a bow. I beat the fight by running a cleric alongside Blackheart with both using shield of faith and guiding bolt, options that I think surpass what most characters have available at that point in the game.



It's an odd fight because the best solution is kiting:

01. Rogue, Ranger, and Fighter all have access to Short Bows, and the fire to dip for flame arrows for the first one or two shots.

02. If your Rogue, Ranger or Fighter have two weapons they can fight with, then they can swap to dual wielding when the Intellect Devourers get close, after kiting them for a bit.

03. Cleric, Warlock, and Wizard all have long distance cantrips that do a lot of damage, so you don't have to dip into spells too much.

04. Cleric, Warlock, and Wizard all have long distance spells which do even more, and/or comparable damage to cantrips. depending on what you chose.

05. Wood Elf and Wood Half-Elf characters also have a slight advantage in this first fight because they get extra movement to make sure they kite a bit more effectively.


I actually like this first fight. It's more about thinking about problem solving than just running into it blind, As a massive fan of the first games, most of the best early fights in BG1 in particular were similar. You needed to be a bit cautious without any gear at a low level. And Ranged Weapons (as with real D&D), and Cantrips/Spells are more advantageous to use at the start of a game.

I got lucky and found two Short Swords with my Wood Elf Rogue on the ship before it crashed, so he was able to dip in the fire, shoot twice to kill one, and then swap to two short swords to kill a second weakened Intellect Devourer by himself.

Whereas with my Wood Half-Elf Warlock, it was all about Eldritch Blast (no need really for anything else, as I didn't even have to cast Hex).

I'm going to be building most of the possible characters (while taking notes), but aside from an Intellect Devourer getting a lucky Crit, you should be able to kill them with some combination of kiting and melee fairly easily (no matter what class of character you create).




"Old time love song will die so swiftly.
You never trust me-
For a while it was nice, but it's time to say bye....

I'm cold, you're so cold-
You're so cold, you're so cold-
No-no-no, cold, you're so cold...."
Joined: Oct 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
So if you play BG3 like it's PnP D&D, you'll have a hard time with fights.

Use DOS:2 playstyle and it's much easier.

c puts you into hide. When out of sight, c puts everyone into stealth and does not seem to need a roll for it.

sneak up, making sure everyone have a range attack.

attack from range first while hiding, you'll be attacking with advantage and will get a surprise round.

always try to c before you attack, what I did for ID fight was after attack, fall back so the ID could never close with me and most times could hide before attacking.

other thing you have to remember is being above your target give you advantage so always go for the high ground.

Use the surface effects to your advantage, they can do more damage then the spells and are small AOEs.

using DOS:2 playstyle, I got through the ID fight on my second playthrough without taking a point of damage.

It's a shame they balanced this game around expecting you to play it like DOS:2

Last edited by Merry Mayhem; 12/10/20 12:52 AM.
Joined: Oct 2020
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
So if you play BG3 like it's PnP D&D, you'll have a hard time with fights.

Use DOS:2 playstyle and it's much easier.

c puts you into hide. When out of sight, c puts everyone into stealth and does not seem to need a roll for it.

sneak up, making sure everyone have a range attack.

attack from range first while hiding, you'll be attacking with advantage and will get a surprise round.

always try to c before you attack, what I did for ID fight was after attack, fall back so the ID could never close with me and most times could hide before attacking.

other thing you have to remember is being above your target give you advantage so always go for the high ground.

Use the surface effects to your advantage, they can do more damage then the spells and are small AOEs.

using DOS:2 playstyle, I got through the ID fight on my second playthrough without taking a point of damage.

It's a shame they balanced this game around expecting you to play it like DOS:2



I play a lot of P&P D&D (and I DM more than play as a character), I think the engine and gameplay are fine. You can interact with environments (which you can do in PNP/Theater of the Mind), most of the rules have ported over pretty seamlessly so far (the biggest exception being that Mage Hand is for some reason a Concentration Spell now that I've seen).

Also kiting and using the environment aren't just a D.O.S. thing (I've actually never played the Divinity games), most P&P games encourage this kind of thinking about your environment.

So far this has been the single best representation of D&D I've seen in a computer game, so I'm not sure what the fuss you're on about is.


"Old time love song will die so swiftly.
You never trust me-
For a while it was nice, but it's time to say bye....

I'm cold, you're so cold-
You're so cold, you're so cold-
No-no-no, cold, you're so cold...."
Joined: Oct 2020
S
stranger
Offline
stranger
S
Joined: Oct 2020
I remembered it being a little challenging on my warlock, but when I rolled up to it on my wood elf ranger he and Shadowheart tore through them. I think I got a lot of lucky rolls as I never seemed to miss a shot with him and Shadowheart kept getting her Sacred Flame off to support. When they got close I swapped to my shortswords and laid into them. I did start the fight at max range of the shortbow, though, which helped immensely.

Joined: Oct 2020
R
stranger
Offline
stranger
R
Joined: Oct 2020
Did it full stealth with my rogue and shadowheart. I climbed in stealth the upper position and then I started firing sneak attacks and guiding bolts.
Imho the difficulty is fine, the game kinda teaches you to not run straight ahead and search for a different approach and I like it!

Joined: Oct 2020
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
I've used a Warlock, Wizard, and Fighter.
The wizard one was even worse, since it's my first playthrough, and I didn't even get to stealth attack them.
But, none encounters a problem when soloing them.

I didn't play Divinity, but I'm using my approach from some DnD campaigns I played or DM'd in the past.
I kite them, kill the one closest to me first using ranged option.

I used sleep with my Wizard.

Joined: Oct 2020
P
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
P
Joined: Oct 2020

Originally Posted by CaryMiller
Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
So if you play BG3 like it's PnP D&D, you'll have a hard time with fights.

Use DOS:2 playstyle and it's much easier.

c puts you into hide. When out of sight, c puts everyone into stealth and does not seem to need a roll for it.

sneak up, making sure everyone have a range attack.

attack from range first while hiding, you'll be attacking with advantage and will get a surprise round.

always try to c before you attack, what I did for ID fight was after attack, fall back so the ID could never close with me and most times could hide before attacking.

other thing you have to remember is being above your target give you advantage so always go for the high ground.

Use the surface effects to your advantage, they can do more damage then the spells and are small AOEs.

using DOS:2 playstyle, I got through the ID fight on my second playthrough without taking a point of damage.

It's a shame they balanced this game around expecting you to play it like DOS:2



I play a lot of P&P D&D (and I DM more than play as a character), I think the engine and gameplay are fine. You can interact with environments (which you can do in PNP/Theater of the Mind), most of the rules have ported over pretty seamlessly so far (the biggest exception being that Mage Hand is for some reason a Concentration Spell now that I've seen).

Also kiting and using the environment aren't just a D.O.S. thing (I've actually never played the Divinity games), most P&P games encourage this kind of thinking about your environment.

So far this has been the single best representation of D&D I've seen in a computer game, so I'm not sure what the fuss you're on about is.


If mage hand being a concentration spells is the biggest change in rules you've noticed, you haven't been playing around with cantrips and spells very much. Right off the top of my head I can list that they changed firebolt from 1d10 damage to 1d6 plus setting the enemy on fire and creating a fire surface underneath them, which is even more powerful than a simple 1d10 damage, not to mention it will still burn them and create a fire surface even if you miss your attack. Ray of Frost (I believe that's the name) can knock an enemy prone and create an ice surface under them which counts as rough terrain and has a chance to knock them prone when they move over it, and yet again it can do this even if your attack roll misses. Acid Splash has been changed into an AoE attack that reduces AC by 2 which is entirely OP since reducing AC in D&D 5E is not only rather uncommon, but also extremely useful since it makes it a lot easier for attacks to hit. Pretty much any fight can be cheesed just by hitting the enemies with a good acid splash and then letting the warrior go to work.

I'm not saying to remove the surface mechanics entirely, I rather enjoy them and they really add something to the gameplay, but they are created way too easily. Cantrips shouldn't create surfaces when they hit people, only when they are actually aimed at an object or the ground at most. Also, I get that it's more realistic for fire attack to set enemies on fire, but it doesn't do that in D&D 5E for a reason and it should be left that way. Reducing the damage die doesn't really have any effect when the burn damage itself not only make up for the reduction, but actually surpasses it. Combined with the enemy having to move out of the fire surface that was created under them, which does more damage when they move through it, it makes firebolt an amazingly OP attack for a cantrip that can be spammed as much as you want.

Using the environment to your advantage is a great option and extremely useful when your party is outnumbered, but when even simple cantrips change the environment without actually requiring an environmental object such as an oil barrel or some such, it's just too much. If I shot a firebolt at a barrel of alcohol or something I could understand it exploding and making an area of fire to separate the enemies from me or some such, but being able to do basically that exact same thing just by tossing some firebolts at the ground, no matter how flammable it should actually be, is just plain stupid.


Joined: Oct 2020
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Pupito


If mage hand being a concentration spells is the biggest change in rules you've noticed, you haven't been playing around with cantrips and spells very much. Right off the top of my head I can list that they changed firebolt from 1d10 damage to 1d6 plus setting the enemy on fire and creating a fire surface underneath them, which is even more powerful than a simple 1d10 damage, not to mention it will still burn them and create a fire surface even if you miss your attack. Ray of Frost (I believe that's the name) can knock an enemy prone and create an ice surface under them which counts as rough terrain and has a chance to knock them prone when they move over it, and yet again it can do this even if your attack roll misses. Acid Splash has been changed into an AoE attack that reduces AC by 2 which is entirely OP since reducing AC in D&D 5E is not only rather uncommon, but also extremely useful since it makes it a lot easier for attacks to hit. Pretty much any fight can be cheesed just by hitting the enemies with a good acid splash and then letting the warrior go to work.

I'm not saying to remove the surface mechanics entirely, I rather enjoy them and they really add something to the gameplay, but they are created way too easily. Cantrips shouldn't create surfaces when they hit people, only when they are actually aimed at an object or the ground at most. Also, I get that it's more realistic for fire attack to set enemies on fire, but it doesn't do that in D&D 5E for a reason and it should be left that way. Reducing the damage die doesn't really have any effect when the burn damage itself not only make up for the reduction, but actually surpasses it. Combined with the enemy having to move out of the fire surface that was created under them, which does more damage when they move through it, it makes firebolt an amazingly OP attack for a cantrip that can be spammed as much as you want.

Using the environment to your advantage is a great option and extremely useful when your party is outnumbered, but when even simple cantrips change the environment without actually requiring an environmental object such as an oil barrel or some such, it's just too much. If I shot a firebolt at a barrel of alcohol or something I could understand it exploding and making an area of fire to separate the enemies from me or some such, but being able to do basically that exact same thing just by tossing some firebolts at the ground, no matter how flammable it should actually be, is just plain stupid.



OK all good points (and yes I haven't delved into the spells much yet!). Is there a thread where people are discussing this. You are right about Firebolt (just checked it), I wonder why it was changed? Most of this stuff seems to be small amounts of mechanical change to highlight the interactive environments, but that doesn't mean it all couldn't be adjusted back to something closer to Rules As Written in the Players Handbook.




"Old time love song will die so swiftly.
You never trust me-
For a while it was nice, but it's time to say bye....

I'm cold, you're so cold-
You're so cold, you're so cold-
No-no-no, cold, you're so cold...."
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Barcelona
Bal Offline
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Barcelona
With my first character, as a Warlock I killed them without any problem. Later I made my Ranger and they killed me from one single hit, I did not even save my game! After do it all again and save, they managed to kill my second character (cleric). At the third try I was able to pass them but almost died. Later on, with another character i had no issues, like mir first character. I think this encouter is a little bit unbalanced. If you pass the checks you kill them easy. But if you don't pass it... they slaughter you.


Steam ID: Bal
Joined: Oct 2020
S
stranger
Offline
stranger
S
Joined: Oct 2020
I've done this fight three times: Human fighter, Halfling rogue and Half-elf Cleric. All three times the fight was super easy.

Joined: Oct 2020
Z
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Z
Joined: Oct 2020
I didn't find this fight hard at all. It's a pretty standard DnD encounter against high HP enemies at low level. If you go in head first you can get overwhelmed. If you proceed carefully and tactically it's a cakewalk.

Joined: Oct 2020
T
stranger
Offline
stranger
T
Joined: Oct 2020
personally I had my wizard and shadow heart, and just kited the 3 IntDevs out of the shipwreck. 1 eventually cought up and hit me but by then then it was alone and crippled and it went down. it took several tries to come up with this strat because I don't like kiting. but if worked and it felt satisfying and in-character (trickster cleric and teifling wizard)

Joined: Dec 2020
X
stranger
Offline
stranger
X
Joined: Dec 2020
I did a quick search to see if I was missing something when I first did this encounter and found this thread. And while I did notice that the IDs were nerfed, and did not use their multi-attack + intellect devour, even so the claw attack never hit for less than 7 and as a result was pretty deadly. (BTW, stealth should also not be a viable tactic against IDs since they're effectively blind and can detect the location of any intelligent life 300 feet away, so this is another nerf) I feel the key to this fight is high AC, but unless people are very familiar with DnD, 3 IDs with 40 movement speed, and never seem to hit lower than 7 is going to be rough. I don't know about others but my damage across 4 re-loads averaged between 2-3 against IDs that had 12-15 HP (my eldritch blast never hit above 4, obviously not RNG carried...). Doing the math it will requires at least 12 successful hits on average, for enemies that can kill you in 2. Bottom-line this encounter is definitely do-able, but relies too much on RNG, which IMO this early in the game is just not fun...

I understand the desire for challenge, but I think encounters such as this one is what led people to complain about the DnD rules. I personally think the problem is not the DnD, but the encounter, I am curious to understand the design motivation behind it.

Joined: Dec 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Dec 2020
LMAO, O M G. More of the 'it's too difficult' garbage. I am sorry but if Larian is not going to just come and say it, I will: learn to play cause this fight is utter CAKE.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5