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Originally Posted by Tav22
For those of us unfamiliar, can you be more specific about what has changed from the core ruleset?


Damn, that's a lot of stuff. Some examples include even the enemies, they have very different HP numbers, AC numbers, CR (challenge rating) and abilities. Then there's the weird stuff with advantages/disadvantages based on height, how "backstabbing" works, and spells are sometimes quite different too, and the class implementation is far from faithful, aswell as many actions that are bonus actions instead of full actions, and lots of actions like Dodge, Ready and Disengage missing. Then there's how reactions are implemented, aswell as how some abilities and actions should be able to be applied upon a hit, and so on and so forth. Honestly, the list goes on but these are certainly some of the main points.

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Thats kind of an over general cop out excuse by them imo... especially with some of the issues i see as major...

How they deviated from disengage... marrying it to the jump and making it a free action(just bad)... how for some reason you can walk up to someone holding a sword and shove them off a cliff without an attack... i dont agree it should be without repercussion(AOO) either but that at least was legit according to the rules... another water down form 3.5ed... like so many other things... currently, attacks of opportunity might as well not even exist... tactics other than "high ground" with them...

These arent things that wouldnt work... more like things they didnt/couldn't make work... leading to combat in general being kinda meh... imo... i try to separate game issues here from my general reservations on 5ed, but it seems including these things would vastly improve/add to combat... and immersion for that matter...

Last edited by Llev; 30/12/20 01:41 PM.
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I doubt that Larian really tried.
They just used the DOS combat engine with all its quirks and special abilities and added a D20 to it. But the core is not D&D

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Originally Posted by Ixal
I doubt that Larian really tried.
They just used the DOS combat engine with all its quirks and special abilities and added a D20 to it. But the core is not D&D

That’s my impression. They spent the majority of time on their graphics and it shows. The game is beautiful.

5e ruleset is heavily designed on action economy (you can’t do a bunch of things at once without very specific special abilities) and bounded accuracy (to hit bonuses and AC are limited). Those two things must be in check in order to maintain balance in combat otherwise you get what you see in BG3.

Last edited by spectralhunter; 30/12/20 05:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tav22
I don't understand why every class can hide and pick locks. I had the wrong character try to pick a lock (a cleric) on accident and they succeeded. This actually broke my immersion and is made no logical sense.
Any class can hide and pick locks in 5e D&D (in fact this has been true in all editions since 3e.) You don't even need proficiency. And this is a good thing - otherwise players would be forced to take specific classes. It makes logical sense, too, since most of the locks in the setting are not terribly complex.

Anyway the tabletop rules are designed to be easy to adjudicate for tabletop purposes. It would be a mistake to rigidly adhere to them in a computer game, which runs very differently. In particular the game's engine has access to complex field interactions that would be unreasonable to track on tabletop - are you suggesting they should rip that lovely system out? And with it, naturally aspects of the game have to be rebalanced. Similarly, there are some abilities and interactions that can only be adjudicated by a human DM, which requires that a computer game handle them differently.

Computer games should be designed with an eye towards what computers can do well, not what a human DM could do well.

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Originally Posted by ZetaZeta
Originally Posted by Tav22
I don't understand why every class can hide and pick locks. I had the wrong character try to pick a lock (a cleric) on accident and they succeeded. This actually broke my immersion and is made no logical sense.
Any class can hide and pick locks in 5e D&D (in fact this has been true in all editions since 3e.) You don't even need proficiency. And this is a good thing - otherwise players would be forced to take specific classes. It makes logical sense, too, since most of the locks in the setting are not terribly complex.

Anyway the tabletop rules are designed to be easy to adjudicate for tabletop purposes. It would be a mistake to rigidly adhere to them in a computer game, which runs very differently. In particular the game's engine has access to complex field interactions that would be unreasonable to track on tabletop - are you suggesting they should rip that lovely system out? And with it, naturally aspects of the game have to be rebalanced. Similarly, there are some abilities and interactions that can only be adjudicated by a human DM, which requires that a computer game handle them differently.

Computer games should be designed with an eye towards what computers can do well, not what a human DM could do well.

Do you mean they should, in.exemple implement rounds of 6 Real Time seconds ? :P

Last edited by Maximuuus; 30/12/20 05:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Tav22
For those of us unfamiliar, can you be more specific about what has changed from the core ruleset?

- In D&D you just have an action, bonus actions are bvery specific features you have to use wisely. In other words in D&D bonus actions are bonus actions, not a second action.
- Jump and disengage have nothing to do in D&D. One is for jump, the other is to disengage. None of them are bonus actions.
- Dip doesn't exist. In the reality of the Forgotten Realms you can't dip your sword in the fire of a candle/torch/... To create a magical fire sword.
- shove, hide and disengage are actions (with a few exceptions)
- you can't eat during combats in D&D
- those that never use magic can't use magical Scrolls
- an attack from highground doesn't give an advantage.
- an attack on your opponent's back doesn't give an advantage if he know you're in its back
- you can choose when to use your reaction
- D&D have a cover mechanic
- D&D have a better variety of actions : shove to prone, help to have advantage, dodge, ready, administrer a potion,...
- In D&D every single goblins or monster doesn't have magical stuff (arrows, potions,...)
- In D&D you can usually play from 4 to 6 characters (many campaign are designed arround 5 if I'm not wrong)
- In D&D items aren't completely WTF (healing someone never coat poison on your target's weapons)
- Time exist in D&D, such as night and meteo... not in BG3

That's a short list..


Great examples!

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On first glance it appears they implemented 5e with minor changes to classes (ranger/rogue the most changed), but once the combat starts you can't call it 5e anymore. Their 'minor' changes that accoridng to them were necessary to make it work in a video game have such deep rooted effects that they completely broke the action economy. Every change they made are based on their DOS-philosophy and are absoutely not necessary to make it work in a digital medium. Action economy, surfaces, far too many advantages/disadvantges, grenades and special arrors being the most common thingin the game, barrelmancy...

You will see that a significant part of the AI's action are based on Larian's changes - in other words they unbalanced the game by adding stuff that is more efficient than D&D 5e options you can do. So I call them out on either lying to the players - or worse to themselves - that those changes were necessary. The made the game unbalanced and worse. Sprinkling D&D with DOS2 didn't improve anything and pretty much all the changes are bad as of now and their ripples will disrupt the next classes as well as higher levels even more than they already did.

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They spent a ton of money to make the game pretty. Voice acting is top notch. Body motion capture is good. The graphics are beautiful.

In three years they put a ton of resources to make it pretty.

But time is limited so they skimped on combat mechanics. They already had DOS so why create a whole new one? Just tweak it a bit and work on making things pretty.

If explosions are bad now, imagine stuff happening at level 10. MOAB barrels here we come!

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Though I do think they should definitely remove the one-summon limit. Changes from the base rules, when they're going to make them, should be:

1. Stuff that improves the core game - taking advantage of stuff you can do with a computer handling the rules. Limiting people to one summon makes things worse.

2. Stuff that is necessary because it can't be done without a DM to handle things. Obviously that's not the case here.

3. Stuff that doesn't break core, iconic D&D stuff. Limiting summons basically guts the entire concept and gameplay style of D&D summoners; summoning hordes is very much central to many iconic classes, builds, and spells.

4. Stuff that is intuitive or which makes the game more intuitive. The summon limit is awkward, game-y, and makes no in-universe sense.

Seriously this is an inexplicable change. Back in D:OS2 they argued it made the game easier to balance, but D&D is already balanced around having multiple summons, so in this case they broke the game's balance in order to make things less interesting and less fun, while losing an iconic part of the source material in the process. What an awful decision.

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Yeah, you should be able to summon either one creature of a higher CR or more creatures of a lower CR.

Last edited by andreasrylander; 30/12/20 07:41 PM.
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+1 I believe Larian had good intentions with with their changes, but at this point it's pretty plain to see that a lot of them didn't pan out as planned.

They tried giving all classes more to do at early levels to elevate the excitement of essentially tutorial levels, but when you make everyone special, no one is special.

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Good intention to please who ?
Probably not those that buy this game as a D&D game...

Just check at 6:40. That's so ridiculous...


Last edited by Maximuuus; 30/12/20 09:57 PM.
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Wow. I kinda swore off most of the grenade type weapons early on...

the fights in the video were actually very challenging and draining for me... especially the gith...

crazy to see what they can really do with some attention to using them tactically...

Last edited by Llev; 30/12/20 10:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by Llev
Wow. I kinda swore off most of the grenade type weapons early on...

the fights in the video were actually very challenging and draining for me... especially the gith...

crazy to see what they can really do with some attention to using them tactically...

That's how combats works at the moment : just learn a few OP custom mechanics and everything that was more or less hard just become (very) easy...

I had the same experience than you on the first time. Everything was very hard and frustrating. Then I learned about backstab, highground, dipping, jumping,... And every combats became easy, uninterresting and determined by a few things that doesn't belong to D&D.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 30/12/20 10:58 PM.
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Yes, indeed, Maximuuus, its called using the tools that have been given you to succeed. Duh.
Learn. To. Play. And. Get. Good.

Last edited by bullse; 30/12/20 10:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by bullse
Yes, indeed, Maximuuus, its called using the tools that have been given you to succeed. Duh.
Learn. To. Play. And. Get. Good.

D&D is supposed to be the tool of BG3 wink
Nothing in this video belongs to D&D, but I guess you just don't know a thing about it.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 30/12/20 10:56 PM.
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Yet, you fail in using them. Ironic, huh?

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Yeah, im admittedly trying to get the d&d feel out of this game... so im kinda trying to play it as best i can in that...

I go the stealth/position/dip route, seems to be enough to make it appropriately challenging with a group... 9th-10th run through, almost all combat isnt too bad with preparation... this is where im missing the tactical side of combat they seem to have inadvertently removed...

...and i hate jumping all over the place.

Last edited by Llev; 30/12/20 11:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by bullse
Yes, indeed, Maximuuus, its called using the tools that have been given you to succeed. Duh.
Learn. To. Play. And. Get. Good.

D&D is supposed to be the tool of BG3 wink
Nothing in this video belongs to D&D, but I guess you just don't know a thing about it.


Yeah, I truly don't like the fact that it's ... just not DnD. I *REALLY* hope they change shit around to make it far more true to DnD core rules!!!

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