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#691290 12/10/20 04:25 PM
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I have seen lots of arguments made both in favor of and against the shoving bonus action. I would like to briefly explain my opinion on the subject, and then hear yours, so here goes: I, for one, love shoving. I think it is a very cool addition to the game, makes fights a little more complex and adds a strategic element to the highground, aside from advantage of course. I love the verticality in the game, and I don't think shoving is overpowered or should be nerved, since both my party and the enemy can use it to their advantage. However, I have seen comments on how shoving could be modified, for example by adding a saving throw, or changing it so that it becomes an action instead of a bonus action.

On a side note, i think it would fit nicely if shoving would become an action for all classes, and the rogue would get shove as a cunning action.

I have also seen some people arguing for a complete removal of shove from the game. What do you think and why?

Last edited by Sigi98; 12/10/20 04:25 PM.
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Since rogues are a dexterity based class usually, and shoving is strength based it doesn't really fit with the rogue to be a bonus action.

In DnD 5e it uses the attack action - so it costs a full action, except certain classes that are meant ot be making lots of attacks - fighter, barbarian, ranger, monk, paladins all gai nthe "Extra attack" feature at level 5, meaning they can attack AND shove as their action.

That's how DnD does it.. the classes that make more sense to be pushign people around can do it more easily than others. It makes sense. Changing it to be a bonus action doesn't make sense.

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I too like the way they are handling shove, it's fun. Also satisfying, especially when you've been dealing with an archer and you just rush up there and spartan kick them off as a gentle reminder to stop. I have had shoves resisted though, so there is something there in terms of a saving throw or a contested check. I just can't tell exactly what is being used when they resist.

I don't understand people wanting it to be removed since it is a thing in 5e, albeit the 5e version only has you being pushed back 5 feet.

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I love shove. You can shove at the start of your turn if you need to back away and avoid an attack of opportunity. You can shove someone off a cliff and assure that they'll take some form of damage while buying yourself some time while they haul themselves back up to you. You can shove them into a pile of grease that they just crawled out of. I don't want shove to be taken away. I get the argument about rogue, so maybe change it to trip and make it more dex based.

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Originally Posted by Sigi98
I have seen lots of arguments made both in favor of and against the shoving bonus action. I would like to briefly explain my opinion on the subject, and then hear yours, so here goes: I, for one, love shoving. I think it is a very cool addition to the game, makes fights a little more complex and adds a strategic element to the highground, aside from advantage of course. I love the verticality in the game, and I don't think shoving is overpowered or should be nerved, since both my party and the enemy can use it to their advantage. However, I have seen comments on how shoving could be modified, for example by adding a saving throw, or changing it so that it becomes an action instead of a bonus action.

On a side note, i think it would fit nicely if shoving would become an action for all classes, and the rogue would get shove as a cunning action.

I have also seen some people arguing for a complete removal of shove from the game. What do you think and why?


In the paper game, Shoving IS an action available to anybody and it can replace an attack (not the Attack action, just one attack). And there are Dexterity/Strength options in the paper game.

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I made a thread about this, and my suggestions are as follows:

  • Shoving should be an Athletics check versus the higher score of the target's Acrobatics or Athletics.
  • Display the check in the combat log.
  • The attacker rolls with advantage if the attacker is one size category larger that the target. If the attacker is two categories larger than the target, the shove automatically succeeds.
  • The attacker rolls with disadvantage if the target is one size category larger than the attacker. If the target is two categories larger than the attacker, the shove automatically fails.
  • The attacker rolls with advantage if the target has the surprised condition.
  • If the target is completely unaware, the shove is an automatic success, if the attacker is the same size category or larger than the target.
  • If the target is completely unaware, the shove is a contested roll if the attacker is one size category SMALLER than the target. (A straight roll, as the advantage from the target being unaware is cancelled by the target being a larger size than the attacker.)
  • Shove should be a bonus action for Fighters and Barbarians only, and a full action for every other class.
  • Mage Hands should not be able to shove living creatures (or undead, constructs, summons, etc). Shoving dead bodies is fine.


EDIT: Added Mage Hands to be thorough

Last edited by Stabbey; 15/10/20 03:34 PM.
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I think it is a decent addition and pretty much imperative considering the general difficulty of the game. I just wish the game told you more how to use all the resources given to you with concrete examples, because I feel the game is awfully hard for people not quite knowing what they can do each turn and awfully easy for people who use their resources to the fullest, because they have that sort of inquisitive mind figuring out things for themselves.

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Shoving isn't exactly new to D&D 5e, it is a base ability, and as others have pointed out it requires one of your available attack actions to shove normally, and in the base game it is a contested check. This means you use your Athletics + a 1d20 versus the one being shoved also using Atheltics + 1d20. Unlike attack rolls though if you both get the same number on a contested check it is considered a failure, or nothing happens.

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It should be a tactical choice when to Shove your opponent instead of attacking them with a weapon.

It's silly that you get to freely push people as you wish in addition to doing full attacks.

And the distance needs to be toned down to 5' so you might have to push someone more than once to make them fall off a high cliff and take 10d6.

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If Larian made it an action instead of a bonus action and you checked if it succeeded with an athletics check (like others have said is the 5e rule) then I think it would be a fun mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
[*]Shove should be a bonus action for Fighters and Barbarians only, and a full action for every other class.


I'd be curious to hear your reasoning on this one.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
I made a thread about this, and my suggestions are as follows:

  • Shoving should be an Athletics check versus the higher score of the target's Acrobatics or Athletics.
  • Display the check in the combat log.
  • The attacker rolls with advantage if the attacker is one size category larger that the target. If the attacker is two categories larger than the target, the shove automatically succeeds.
  • The attacker rolls with disadvantage if the target is one size category larger than the attacker. If the target is two categories larger than the attacker, the shove automatically fails.
  • The attacker rolls with advantage if the target has the surprised condition.
  • If the target is completely unaware, the shove is an automatic success, if the attacker is the same size category or larger than the target.
  • If the target is completely unaware, the shove is a contested roll if the attacker is one size category SMALLER than the target. (A straight roll, as the advantage from the target being unaware is cancelled by the target being a larger size than the attacker.)
  • Shove should be a bonus action for Fighters and Barbarians only, and a full action for every other class.


I think those are all great, I'd also add: reduce shove distance, or maybe make distance a function of show much the shover surpassed the target

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Originally Posted by Yawning Spider
Originally Posted by Stabbey
[*]Shove should be a bonus action for Fighters and Barbarians only, and a full action for every other class.


I'd be curious to hear your reasoning on this one.


Because, since it's not in the game yet, Fighters and Barbarians should get the shove part of the Shield Master Feat for free, without having to use a shield!

Last edited by Koshea; 12/10/20 05:37 PM.
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Quote
Shove should be a bonus action for Fighters and Barbarians only, and a full action for every other class.

Shoving should be a bonus action for specific features (like Open Hand Monk) or feats (Shield Master), expecially if they want to introduce the option to toggle between shove away and shove prone. Shove prone as bonus for every is just a cheat

Or we could separate shove and keep it bonus for everyone from a full action Knockout (to be influeced by the likes avobe).

We can all agree btw that base shove distance of 15ft is too much. Makes some class features like Battlemaster pushing attack (15ft) or Repelling blast much less useful: shoving area is already conviniently covered, why bother taking options like these instead of something else

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I think shoving would be perfect if it would follow DnD rules. Or be even a little more restrictive
- Instead of an attack
- as a skill check (athletics), versus a skillcheck (athletics or acrobatics, wichever is better). So you need to invest to be good and reliable at it
- maximum 5 feet, so not kicking somebody across the room into a pit. Its DnD, not golf.
- maximum 1 size category bigger. just just cant - mid combat - shove a 800 pound moster away.
- maximum 1 shove a round.*


*With all the small surfaces and multiple floors that game already favors shoving over attacking heavily, even if you stick to the DnD rules. The state its at right now is rediculous. Imagine a battlemaster hitting level 5. he can deal 2x weapon damage + 3 shoves in 1 turn. like are you even serious?

Last edited by DuderusMcRuleric; 12/10/20 05:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by Stabbey
I made a thread about this, and my suggestions are as follows:

  • Shoving should be an Athletics check versus the higher score of the target's Acrobatics or Athletics.
  • Display the check in the combat log.
  • The attacker rolls with advantage if the attacker is one size category larger that the target. If the attacker is two categories larger than the target, the shove automatically succeeds.
  • The attacker rolls with disadvantage if the target is one size category larger than the attacker. If the target is two categories larger than the attacker, the shove automatically fails.
  • The attacker rolls with advantage if the target has the surprised condition.
  • If the target is completely unaware, the shove is an automatic success, if the attacker is the same size category or larger than the target.
  • If the target is completely unaware, the shove is a contested roll if the attacker is one size category SMALLER than the target. (A straight roll, as the advantage from the target being unaware is cancelled by the target being a larger size than the attacker.)
  • Shove should be a bonus action for Fighters and Barbarians only, and a full action for every other class.


Well nice to see I don't have to type anything and I can just +1 this.

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Keeping push (really should be shove) a bonus action as they've done destroys the balance of the game. It's all about action economy. Shove and disengage cost an action for a reason, and there's a reason only specific classes and sub classes get more than one action per turn too. Also, making push a bonus action destroys things like the spell Arms of Hadar, which requires a first level spell, an action to cast, and a failed save for an opponent to lose their reactions to do things like opportunity attacks. Or taking a feat like mobile, that requires an action to do an attack on an opponent, and hit or miss, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from them that turn. In both cases, this still requires an action accomplish, the spell adds some damage to cancelling their reactions, and the feat is an added bonus for attacking an opponent, but in both cases it still requires an action. There are specific instances where a disengage is a bonus action or even a reaction, but it's extremely rare. See a rogue using cunning action, but these are rare exceptions.

D&D is over 45 years old, and after decades of balancing, we've come to the 5e rule set. It's not perfect, but it must be doing something right because D&D's popularity has been on the rise since 5e came out. Having everyone getting a bonus action disengage with a jump or push thing is crap, and it unbalances the game in many significant ways. Just like all their other deviations BG3 makes from the 5e rule set. They drastically change the balance of the game, and over 45 years of evolution is tossed out the window to make a DoS/5e hybrid abomination. This game does a lot of things right, but almost without exception, every deviation from the 5e rule set negatively unbalances this game drastically.

Last edited by ReaLMoisan; 12/10/20 06:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by Koshea
Originally Posted by Yawning Spider
Originally Posted by Stabbey
[*]Shove should be a bonus action for Fighters and Barbarians only, and a full action for every other class.


I'd be curious to hear your reasoning on this one.


Because, since it's not in the game yet, Fighters and Barbarians should get the shove part of the Shield Master Feat for free, without having to use a shield!

Seems like it'd be better to just add the feat. The rest I agree with, but implementing a half-measure as a stopgap to cover for content that will probably be in the final release seems like a mistake.

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Originally Posted by Yawning Spider
I'd be curious to hear your reasoning on this one.


To be clear, I'm also completely fine with making Shove a full attack action for everyone.

My reasoning for that suggestion is because it's a compromise between Larian's concern about Fighters feeling like there's not much to do in the early game, and the actual 5e rules.

I'm also not against leaving the current shove distance in if you succeed, because those who say shoving people is cool and fun are not wrong. Other tweaks based on size difference, or the amount you win the contested roll by influencing the distance you travel are also fine by me.

I just don't think it should be a bonus for everyone, which rarely fails, and it has to be a contested roll.

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Fair point with regard to compromising on Larian's vision of martial classes, thanks for sharing. Always good to see thoughtful, informed criticism and suggestions here.

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