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Joined: Oct 2020
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I had a thought on this topic overnight and came to another conclusion.

If you use point-buy or standard array (where you allocate 15,14,13,12,10,8 as you wish), the chances of getting a 15+ are very good to the point of guaranteed. Now compare that to a random 3d6 roll:
* chances of rolling 15+ are 9.26%,
* chances of rolling 16+ are 4.63%,
* chances of rolling 17+ are 1.85%,
* chances of rolling 18 are 0.46%.

Some players choose 3d6 because they have the chance to roll 18 (there is a 2.75% chance of rolling an 18 among your six stats), but I wonder if they know exactly what their chances actually are? Of course, the roll chances follow a bell distribution curve, so the chances of rolling very low are equally small. 3d6 is a good way to generate an 'average' character because of the way the distribution falls, but it is not great for when you 'need' that particularly high stat.

Later editions of D&D began offering differing ways to roll, of course, 4d6 and dropping the lowest die result being the most common, but this still leaves you open to chance. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has rolled 4d6 and still ended up with 8 or less.

Then there are the 'go on, have another go' GMs and players. Either through pity, pressure or because they believe they will have a better game with higher stats, sometimes players will simply keep rolling until they get the result they want. It will happen eventually. This is, of course, the early BG/Icewind Dale approach because on a PC, nobody can see your shame (how annoying was it when rolling STR for a fighter and getting 18 but ending up with 18/03?). If this method is used, would it not simply be faster to let the player have an 18 straight off the bat and save all that meaningless rolling?

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To be honest, I always liked rolling due to the randomness of it and the potential to actually be unique. That said I abhor any restriction not placed on you by the actual rules them selves such as "you cant play X class/subclass, cant pick X feat, you can't roll stats in case you are too good...."
Its a single player experience mostly(bg3 not table top lol), and I wouldnt mind being able to play the way I want for a change with out having to listen to what 3-5 other voices say. If we dont get rolling implemented, I could always use real dice to roll my stats and cheat engine to change them so I guess there is that.

Last edited by Dinvan; 14/10/20 11:20 AM.
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For random characters, rolling is obviously the way forwards. You cannot start any more random than rolling, and the stats will generally suggest your class. You'd still need to pick a race, of course, but that sometimes comes with the class and stats (high CON fighter might suggest a dwarf, rubbish STR but high DEX might be a halfling, etc).

As I mentioned upthread; I think the difference in approach is between creating a character that you are visualising before sitting down, and generating a character about which you know nothing at the start. Sometimes the choice is not completely yours, such as if you are joining a party and they need a cleric, but if you are playing solo on the computer then that's not such a restriction.

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I'm ambivalent. With point buy the game is better balanced, and you get to start playing sooner. On the other hand, it may not allow you to play the character you wanted to play, in the earlier games most obviously with dual classing.

As for folks who want to dump strength after rolling is added, I'd consider it a better solution to let you find a strength potion that will enable you to get off the ship and then let you experience the consequences of your choice. I don't think the game should lower requirements to support major stat dumping.

Last edited by Imryll; 14/10/20 03:03 PM.
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On release, I hope for all 3 methods of character creation. In a single player game all work fine. It is only in a multiplayer game where you need for pure balance. BG3 is a single player game with mutiplayer, so perhaps that would need some kind of gate keeping?

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I'd like the option for both!

Rolling and getting a high amount of points was part of the fun in Baldur's Gate 1 & 2. But it could take ages, so good to have point buy available too.

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I'm liking the current system, it lets me get in and get rolling on playing instead of fussing over stats. I have to admit, however, that I did a lot of rolling in BG/BG 2/IWD/IWD 2, I can't remember in NWN if that was a thing or not now...

What I was more disappointed with was not being able to bank points for later.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
When they add rolling for stats, they should probably make sure to force the minimum jump distance to be 4.5 meters, even for STR scores 7 or lower, otherwise people who have less than 8 STR will get stuck at the mandatory jump.

The solution for that is the well known "I throw ____ over the cliff"

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
I have to admit, however, that I did a lot of rolling in BG/BG 2/IWD/IWD 2, I can't remember in NWN if that was a thing or not now...

NWN2 used points-buy. I never played NWN so I can't be sure, but I imagine they would have used the same points-buy system.

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Originally Posted by FireSnake
Originally Posted by Stabbey
When they add rolling for stats, they should probably make sure to force the minimum jump distance to be 4.5 meters, even for STR scores 7 or lower, otherwise people who have less than 8 STR will get stuck at the mandatory jump.

The solution for that is the well known "I throw ____ over the cliff"

My experience was players deciding that their characters 'fall on their sword' if they didn't have high enough stats when rolled. Apart from the complete waste of everyone's time that simply disposing of a poorly-rolled character represented, it also suggested strange in-game scenes where people dragged themselves into the obligatory tavern to be recruited and then committed suicide when they compared themselves to the other party members. Some of those taverns must have ended up with piles of bodies by the end of a particularly poor recruiting session.

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Originally Posted by Imryll
As for folks who want to dump strength after rolling is added, I'd consider it a better solution to let you find a strength potion that will enable you to get off the ship and then letting you experience the consequences of your choice. I don't think the game should lower requirements to support major stat dumping.


The game has probably been designed around a minimum jump distance of 4.5 meters. I think the best solution is to leave that as the minimum even if STR is less than 8.


Originally Posted by FireSnake
The solution for that is the well known "I throw ____ over the cliff"


There's no one to throw you. You don't get a second party member until AFTER you make the jump.

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Long story short. Attribute assignment is one of the most disputed topics in all of D&D. There are three primary models to work from.

1) Rolling. 4D6, dropping the lowest roll. Repeat this six times. Assign each total to the state of your choice (there is a lot of variation here in terms of how many dice to roll as well as what type of dice to roll, but this is the official way in 5e). This model is, to my surprise, the actual default method of character generation in 5th edition. After a half dozen 5e campaigns, I went back to review character generation while I was considering new ways to run character generation and was shocked to see that rolling was the default, because I assumed it was one of the following methods.

2) Point buy. The system set up in Baldur's Gate 3 uses this and it is exactly translated from the 5th edition rules. This is the most popular way of making characters in 5e.

3) Standard array. Take the following numbers: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, and assign them in any order you wish to your six stats. Then apply your racial or template benefits on top. This is meant to be a way to quickly generate balanced characters, and is a very useful tool in maintaining balance in 5th edition. I actually think this method is best as both a player and a DM. As a player, I find that it helps to prevent me from over-optimizing my characters and results in more interesting choices as a result.

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Originally Posted by golw
Long story short. Attribute assignment is one of the most disputed topics in all of D&D. There are three primary models to work from.

1) Rolling. 4D6, dropping the lowest roll. Repeat this six times. Assign each total to the state of your choice (there is a lot of variation here in terms of how many dice to roll as well as what type of dice to roll, but this is the official way in 5e). This model is, to my surprise, the actual default method of character generation in 5th edition. After a half dozen 5e campaigns, I went back to review character generation while I was considering new ways to run character generation and was shocked to see that rolling was the default, because I assumed it was one of the following methods.

2) Point buy. The system set up in Baldur's Gate 3 uses this and it is exactly translated from the 5th edition rules. This is the most popular way of making characters in 5e.

3) Standard array. Take the following numbers: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, and assign them in any order you wish to your six stats. Then apply your racial or template benefits on top. This is meant to be a way to quickly generate balanced characters, and is a very useful tool in maintaining balance in 5th edition. I actually think this method is best as both a player and a DM. As a player, I find that it helps to prevent me from over-optimizing my characters and results in more interesting choices as a result.


There is that 4th rare option of 1D20 re-rolling anything 3 or less or for the super hardcore - no rerolls.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
I actually kind of like the point buy system, as it does add another layer of planning and complexity to developing your character.

On the other hand, I find a bizarre, pathologically demented satisfaction out of rerollling again and again until I end up with a 95 total ability point Demi-god Mary Sue.

I’d like to think that when we can roll characters I will only do this occasionally and will mostly stick to point buy generation, but who am I kidding?

How about everybody else.


I'm sure mods will let you cheat to your heart's content. Random character generation really has little place in modern games.

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my groups have almost always done rolling, and it's definitely my preferred approach, usually 4d6 drop lowest. Sometimes even with rerolling 1s.

The issue with points buy, is in a game where it assumes you're the one doing all the dialogue, you HAVE to have a good charsima and probably wisdom too, then ideally also take insight + social skills. Which basically makes most classes kind of suck - which isn't the experience you want.

going for rolled stats in a CRPG is basically an excuse to have someone spend an hour rolling till they get amazing stats across the board (which is, similarly not how pnp works).

An obvious solution, is to "simply" provide more points.

The average of 4d6 drop lowest is 13.5ish so lets assume 3 14s and 3 13s... or 36 points. Probably remove or increase the max 15 before racials restriction in such a scenario I suppose, but in theory isn't mandatory. 32 or 34 points is probably plenty assuming the max of 15 before racials is kept though.

This gives players enough points to ensure they aren't making their character suck because they want to not suck at social stuff, and similarly allows them to not suck at social stuff.


Last edited by blindhamster; 14/10/20 09:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
Originally Posted by Warlocke
I actually kind of like the point buy system, as it does add another layer of planning and complexity to developing your character.

On the other hand, I find a bizarre, pathologically demented satisfaction out of rerollling again and again until I end up with a 95 total ability point Demi-god Mary Sue.

I’d like to think that when we can roll characters I will only do this occasionally and will mostly stick to point buy generation, but who am I kidding?

How about everybody else.


I'm sure mods will let you cheat to your heart's content. Random character generation really has little place in modern games.

Thing is, rolling stats isn't cheating, rolling stats (4d6 drop lowest score) is actually the default rule. But I agree that because a game can't say "nu uh, you rolled those, so stick with them" it basically amounts to it. Which is why I suggest above that perhaps just providing more points than pnp is the way to go

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Originally Posted by Bossk_Hogg
Originally Posted by Warlocke
I actually kind of like the point buy system, as it does add another layer of planning and complexity to developing your character.

On the other hand, I find a bizarre, pathologically demented satisfaction out of rerollling again and again until I end up with a 95 total ability point Demi-god Mary Sue.

I’d like to think that when we can roll characters I will only do this occasionally and will mostly stick to point buy generation, but who am I kidding?

How about everybody else.


I'm sure mods will let you cheat to your heart's content. Random character generation really has little place in modern games.


Rolling cheat characters is already confirmed. We don’t need mods.

Blindhamster: sorry, but I don’t like your idea. The stat point allocation number is well balanced and doesn’t need to be increased. If want to play a low CHA character then you can have another party member operate as the face. Also 4d6 is fine, but 4d6 dropping 1s is criminally lenient. 😂

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Originally Posted by Warlocke

Blindhamster: sorry, but I don’t like your idea. The stat point allocation number is well balanced and doesn’t need to be increased. If want to play a low CHA character then you can have another party member operate as the face. Also 4d6 is fine, but 4d6 dropping 1s is criminally lenient. 😂


The points suggested was based on 4d6 dropping lowest, not 4d6 dropping lowest and rerolling 1s laugh

If you check online, though, you'll see both are quite common.

My suggested points, again, is what the average for 4d6 drop lowest (the default character creation system) would give you. So, no technically, 27 points isn't balanced considering it's lower than an average roll with the default system would give. That being said, I did also suggest going for 32/34 (still lower than the average) because unlike rolled stats, you could allocate however you liked.

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Would love to be able to roll for characters. Just like in DnD i reckon it should be an option smile

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We roll dice in all of my campaigns.

People like rolling dice.

I want to roll for my stats, for my starting money and gear, etc. Crafting the character is as much the spirit of the RPG as the game play. I don't care for "quick and efficient starting" .. I care about making the character I want to make. My players are the same. In fact, our first night of any new campaign is to have fun rolling characters together and planning origins and cross overs so I can populate the world with custom side quests etc that are relevant. A big part of that night is the sound of hundreds of dice rolls.

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