Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Reworked Rogues

Yeah, it is feedback for the alpha. And my point was to show that the rogues damage output was completely fine and nothing insane. And things change over levels. Just at lvl 5 many classes get extra attacks, while the rogues only increase in damage comes from 1d6 sneak attack. But it is true that I am assuming that most feats will get implemented. Which might be an error on my part. I am hoping though we get most of the feats though. Some of them are needed to make interesting builds for martials.

That being said, I still think the rogue is lackluster compared to the tabletop. Expertise is huge, and cunning action is much weaker now that everyone gets disengage as a bonus action. I just dislike that the rogue has lost what I think of as its identity. I don't see any gameplay reason for changing the rogue really. Well, they did give everyone something that was exclusive to rogue and monk to everyone, so I guess they felt they needed to give something extra to rogue etc. But I fail to see a good reason everyone should have a bonus action disengage anyways. Maybe that is another error on my part.

EDIT: Also your damage calculation for the rogue, above in the thread, is off. You will not have both 18 dex and the dual wielder feat at lvl 4 without human variant.

certainly not. you are absolutely right about the points deviating form actual DnD.
I just wanted to make case, that the Rogue is actually very very strong *in that game" right now. He is the stealther, the lockpicker, the trap disarmer, the shover, the primary DPR and the most mobile class right now in nonmagical ways.
But it´s certainly fair to argue, that the rogue is not what he is supposed to be in DnD. i´ll agree with that immediatly. That´s the point many people are making. The characters/classes are not representing what they are representing in DnD. It does not feel like DnD and your points are fair ones toward that argument.

I fail to understand your point, a rogue can easily solo that encounter as well, with bonus action dash + dash you take only one turn tô get behind enemies and backstab. Or you do the smart thing and don't enter a destroyed town by the front gate, at least that's How I roleplay my rogue, never front doors.
But the point is not about who is stronger here, I think you missed the discussion, the point is that currently the rogue is super OP but fails to use his core class features often and doesn't feel like a classic DnD rogue, Just a crazy OP 2h berserker. They need to tone down multiple attacks for 2h and lean more on sneak attack, expertise, and other rogue features

This os hardly relevante to the discussion, fact is, currently rogue has the highest dpr yet doen't really uses his class features to get there, the Horizon walker probabbly won't even be available at full launch, possibly never.

Something else to include in your calculation, right now Ranger, Colossus Slayer is broken. It is supposed to add 1d8 damage to a wounded creature you hit, but it acts as a second hit so any damage modifers is added on to it for example with a ranger wielding a 1d8 rapier with dueling could deal 2d8 + 4(Dex) + 2d6 + 4 (From doubling hunter's mark and dueling), but using duelwielding with two 1d6 weapons his damage would be 1d8 + 8(dex from both hits) + 5d6 (2d6 from weapons, 2d6 from mark, 1 extra d6 from colossus)

Another fun fact is the Rogue sneak attack is treated the same way so a rogue could instead of gaining +1 hit/damage take the Magic initiate feat at level 4 for the Warlock Hex and deal and additional 2d6 damage every time they sneak attack. and an addtional 1d6 for each off hand hit. Also you can incude in both of these builds if you were to focus strength instead as an off hand weapon option you can buy a hand axe that burns enemies, every time it hits it deals 1d6 + 1d4 + str mod damage.

The numbers get pretty insane if you want to abuse the game in it's current state.

Thing is, the reason the rogue in BG3 is not a DnD Rogue is not the rogue itself. Op mentioned a part of that already.

Granted, expertise is missing, that should absolutely be in the game to keep him the skillmonkey he should be.

But for the other features he basicly still has. The thing is that they are not special anymore, because larian throws incredible skills (in the context of DnD) at everyone like confetti.
Thieves Cant: Hard to judge. I guess rogues get special Dialogue options so it is kinda represented. But every class gets that, so its nothing special.
Cunning action: You still can do all of this. The thing is: Everyone else can disengage as bonus action to. So its basicly not missing in the rogue, its that he gets powercreeped because everyone else can do it. To make up for it they throw more DPS at him.
Fast fingers: Same goes for that one.
Arcane trickster: You get spells. Wich does not matter. But yet again, everyone can "cast" a variety of cantrips or level1 spells by throwing oil, throwing alchemist fires, throwing acid flasks, having items that grant you spells (invis, speak with dead, misty step etc) and everyone can cast spells from scrolls.

So its not like the rogue lacks the ability to do what he can do in DnD.
It´s that every single class is a 80% rogue, a 80% mage, a 80% alchemist or whatevery you wanna call it etc. So the classes do not feel very special.
Cool, got a cleric that can heal. Might aswell eat some pork
Cool, got a mage that can cast grease or set people on fire. Might aswell throw stuff.
Cool, got a fighter with high AC. Does not matter, you get Acid splashed and AOE for 90% of the time, AC10 is just as good.
Cool, got a ranger with a bow and hunters mark. Might aswell sneak attack since it does more damage, always having advantage. Or throw a alch fire with DEX9 and have more ranged DPS.

But i feel that goes for every class. The only thing that i felt really was a defining class feature, were my fighters superiority dice, that enable more plays and selectivle increase your DPS. The rest is absolutely replacable. You can can easily play that game without a single caster. You can easily play it without a single melee fighter, you can easily play it without a dedicated archer/ranged attacker. Everything is and everyone is replacable.

Hopefully that will change with level progression or perhaps (still praying) larian putting in place some adjustments to be more DnDish again.

But right now the rogue is the last class that needs to be touched to feel good.
i guess i failed to really make my point. "though not being what he is in DnD, the rogue to me still is the most enjoyable and least lacksluster class as he feels most significantly different to other classes".
He at least shines in DPSing and maneuverability. Thats one thing that sets him apart from 90% of the other classes, as noone can even remotely reach his DPS or movement. At least he has "something" to shine in. Other classes have nothing important to shine in *!in that PC game!*.

+1

Quick, and fun, 5e dnd note here: having two hand crossbows on a crossbow expert provides nothing but flavor as they only need 1 to do all three attacks, and the way crossbows work you need one free hand to reload, so you will need to drop one for the third attack anyway.

I don't 100% disagree, but I think what needs to change are not the classes, but all those surface itens and other stuff, I played without them cause for me they do exactly what you Said and take a lot away from the experience, but remove those and most classes are fine, the solution here os not adding more ridiculous stuff to classes to outshine those mechanics. For me the classes that need rework are rogue and bestmaster ranger, I really disliked your animal companion being a big summon amd not it's own thing

I do agree, I also saw that everyone having a bonus action is a slap in the face to the 5E rouge.

I also see that you can double dash as a result of using your bonus action and action.

- Make hiding an action, bonus action for rouges
- Make disengage an action, bonus action for rouges
- Remove the ability to Action Dash and then Bonus action Dash
- Auto sneak attack damage on correct conditions

+1