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#693347 13/10/20 11:21 AM
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Very disappointed with BG3 so far. I dislike DND 5.0 to the bone after trying out this game.

I'm used to playing on a NWN2 private server named Baldur's Gate on version 3.5. It was amazing how deep you could customize your character. (Stats, Feat, Class, Prestige Classes, gear etc..)

In this game, it's just bland and boring. You guys fell into the casual trap.

Prestige classes bring one addition to your classes, it doesn't feel like a specialization. Multiclass doesn't seem to work.

The combat system of 1 action per turn is outrageously boring. What happened to the # of attack per turns as per DND? ie: Fighter.

All stats should be good for all classes. In this version, I feel like you have 1 main stat + constitution. (VERY BORING).

I'm sad, currently, this game isn't worth my investment, and if it continues on this line even at release the game will be a dumb down version of Divinity and nothing to do with DND.






Meldor #693362 13/10/20 11:29 AM
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This game is far from casual, it is inherently complicated, deep and intransparent.

1. The game is in EA, not all classes, specilizations, prestige classes are in yet.
2. The combat system is all about resource management and you can have multiple bonus actions and actions through various means. A rogue can get a second bonus action. The fighter has a skill that allows another action and haste gives you two actions per turn as well. There are likely a few other ways to up that already and there will be more in the later game. Actions do not also equal attacks, so it is far deeper and more versatile.
3. All stats are good for all classes. I am still annoyed that wisdom is my dump stat, because it seems that many skillchecks for traps and such use wisdom. If you mouse over them in character creation you get a rough explanation of the benefits to your skillchecks.

I also find the game mediocre, mostly because of the game not telling you anything how it works and therefore being ridiculously difficult. I also do not see any resemblance to it's predecessors. Mind you this is all because of the lacking fluff, not because of the DnD ruleset, that I know just as much about as 2nd edition 20 years ago.

Meldor #693386 13/10/20 11:41 AM
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If you don't like 5e (understandable coming from 3.5) and probably didn't like Larian's previous games, then I'm sorry this game is not for you unless your willing to accept it's something mechanically different.

Meldor #693391 13/10/20 11:45 AM
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You're playing low level characters, they're not gonna have multiple attacks per turn at these levels. As per 5E rules, fighters get their first extra attack at lvl 5, and currently in this EA version characters are capped at 4. So good job, saying the game "isn't D&D" and then complaining about the game working according to D&D rules.

Multiclassing doesn't work because it hasn't been implemented yet. Because the game is, you know, not finished.

Overall your post is very whiny and not constructive. Do better.

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Originally Posted by VincentNZ

I also find the game mediocre, mostly because of the game not telling you anything how it works and therefore being ridiculously difficult..


It's like BG1 and BG2 told you what to do after you finished prologue. Come on man!

Meldor #693412 13/10/20 11:54 AM
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5E doesn't have prestige classes. In general, it does not have the mix and match multiclassing insanity that, for better or for worse, pretty much defines 3E/3.5. Making the base classes powerful, customizable, and interesting at every level was a 5E design goal and I think one which succeeds — multiclassing is available, but it's mostly a straight trade of high-level power for greater flexibility, rather than a must-have to build an interesting character.

Instead, each class has subtypes with interesting and different mechanics and game play. In early access, not many of these are implemented — but I'm sure we'll see more.

Last edited by Postwave; 13/10/20 12:21 PM.
Meldor #693414 13/10/20 11:54 AM
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its whiny because I realize that with time games are not for gamers anymore. That or watching a movie, its about the same.

DND isn't for casual imo, when I first started playing DND pen&paper on 2.0, you had to invest quite some time undestanding the rules and your character progression to really make a great character.

This game first, doesnt explain shit about the future of your class or prestige class, therefore you are completely blind in regards to the development.

Like I said in another post, Why can't I make a fighter focused on archery, with feats every level, like many shots, etc.. why feats are soo trivial now and doesnt bring real content to your character.

I could easily plan a character for NWN2 over a week long, thinking should I get my 3 pal lvl now or later etc.. https://nwn2db.com/

I'm a min maxer and loved what 3.5 had to offer in term of complexity.

BG3 has no dept or it doesnt explain it properly.


Imendil #693468 13/10/20 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Imendil
Originally Posted by VincentNZ

I also find the game mediocre, mostly because of the game not telling you anything how it works and therefore being ridiculously difficult..


It's like BG1 and BG2 told you what to do after you finished prologue. Come on man!


No it didn't. Yet I never used protective spells, never understood any of the game mechanics, yet completed the game on normal with not a whole lot of resistance. I recently played it on hard and spend a little more time with the underlying ruleset, still did not use actual skills once, apart from maybe true sight.

Meldor #693486 13/10/20 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Meldor
Very disappointed with BG3 so far. I dislike DND 5.0 to the bone after trying out this game.

I'm used to playing on a NWN2 private server named Baldur's Gate on version 3.5. It was amazing how deep you could customize your character. (Stats, Feat, Class, Prestige Classes, gear etc..)

In this game, it's just bland and boring. You guys fell into the casual trap.

1) Prestige classes bring one addition to your classes, it doesn't feel like a specialization. Multiclass doesn't seem to work.

2) The combat system of 1 action per turn is outrageously boring. What happened to the # of attack per turns as per DND? ie: Fighter.

3) All stats should be good for all classes. In this version, I feel like you have 1 main stat + constitution. (VERY BORING).

I'm sad, currently, this game isn't worth my investment, and if it continues on this line even at release the game will be a dumb down version of Divinity and nothing to do with DND.


(numbers mine)

1 - prestige class as of 5e are gone. Instead you have liberal multiclassing with no obtuse restrictions and every class has a subclass. Still, multiclass in bg3 is not already implemented, but it will be

2- as of any d&d edition you are allowed only 1 standard action per turn on top of other possible actions (like bonus actions), also multiattack comes after a while. Most warrior classes get theyr second attack (as part of the same attack action) at 5th level, fighters get a third at 11 and a fourth at 20.

3- all stats now have a saving throw attached to them, also since you cant spend points into skills anymore and some skills have impactful effects even in combat, makes them pretty useful. If you want to be social you need not to dump Cha, if you need to be stealthy place some point is dexterity, if you dont like to be surprised in combat dont have a negative wisdom modifiers. On the other hand im not forced to raise int to keep up with skills, god bless

Dont judge 5e by this rather.. original implementation. Tabletop is way much better: its fun and gives you enough options and costumization without all those absurd level of rules and restrictions of past editions. Try it!

Meldor #693487 13/10/20 12:29 PM
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I can't do much to help you with your complaint about "games aren't for gamers", but... yeah, 5E doesn't have the amount of complexity in character creation that 3.5 does, and that is largely by design — in that editio, churning out new classes was basically the business model. In 5E, the focus is on other areas. If you love the "mini-game" of building 3.5 characters, you'll miss that in 5E. But, it has otger strengths, and tou can build an awesome archer as a fighter, rogue, or ranger, all with a different and unique feel.

Just not really in BG3 early access yet. smile

Meldor #693500 13/10/20 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Meldor
its whiny because I realize that with time games are not for gamers anymore. That or watching a movie, its about the same.

DND isn't for casual imo, when I first started playing DND pen&paper on 2.0, you had to invest quite some time undestanding the rules and your character progression to really make a great character.

This game first, doesnt explain shit about the future of your class or prestige class, therefore you are completely blind in regards to the development.

Like I said in another post, Why can't I make a fighter focused on archery, with feats every level, like many shots, etc.. why feats are soo trivial now and doesnt bring real content to your character.

I could easily plan a character for NWN2 over a week long, thinking should I get my 3 pal lvl now or later etc.. https://nwn2db.com/

I'm a min maxer and loved what 3.5 had to offer in term of complexity.

BG3 has no dept or it doesnt explain it properly.




I think BG3 is not the issue here, I think it is d&d 5e in general for you. You want something that 5e generally does not offer.
You can of course do it if you play the game at the table, you can home brew stuff. But 5e is generally built for newer players and streamlines a lot. Something I personally like. It's easy to add things to the system if you want it to be more complicated.

Does this mean BG3 is going to have less customization options? I don't think so it's still in EA. Not even all the base classes and races are in it. There are also still specializations missing. I am sure they are going to add those. There probably also going to be mods and stuff if the DOS games are anything to go by.

If you want complexity your not going to like the 5e system in general.

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Originally Posted by BlueFlames
But 5e is generally built for newer players and streamlines a lot.


I would say: it's made to be more welcoming to newer players, but also has a lot of depth and complexity. Parts of it harken all the way back to original D&D, before AD&D or AD&D 2E.

Meldor #693802 13/10/20 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Meldor
Very disappointed with BG3 so far. I dislike DND 5.0 to the bone after trying out this game.

I'm used to playing on a NWN2 private server named Baldur's Gate on version 3.5. It was amazing how deep you could customize your character. (Stats, Feat, Class, Prestige Classes, gear etc..)

In this game, it's just bland and boring. You guys fell into the casual trap.

Prestige classes bring one addition to your classes, it doesn't feel like a specialization. Multiclass doesn't seem to work.

The combat system of 1 action per turn is outrageously boring. What happened to the # of attack per turns as per DND? ie: Fighter.

All stats should be good for all classes. In this version, I feel like you have 1 main stat + constitution. (VERY BORING).

I'm sad, currently, this game isn't worth my investment, and if it continues on this line even at release the game will be a dumb down version of Divinity and nothing to do with DND.







Uhmm....you realize 5E is a lot more balanced than 3.5 right? I've played NWN extensively and forever buffing yourself with spells (cause concentration doesnt exist) is not that much fun IMO. lol.

Cause 3.5 was literally that. 10 minutes of buffing then you win the game.

Postwave #693807 13/10/20 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Postwave
Originally Posted by BlueFlames
But 5e is generally built for newer players and streamlines a lot.


I would say: it's made to be more welcoming to newer players, but also has a lot of depth and complexity. Parts of it harken all the way back to original D&D, before AD&D or AD&D 2E.

Depth? Not really. Just look at how skills got neurtered in in compared to 3E.

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Originally Posted by Tequilaman
Originally Posted by Meldor
Very disappointed with BG3 so far. I dislike DND 5.0 to the bone after trying out this game.

I'm used to playing on a NWN2 private server named Baldur's Gate on version 3.5. It was amazing how deep you could customize your character. (Stats, Feat, Class, Prestige Classes, gear etc..)

In this game, it's just bland and boring. You guys fell into the casual trap.

Prestige classes bring one addition to your classes, it doesn't feel like a specialization. Multiclass doesn't seem to work.

The combat system of 1 action per turn is outrageously boring. What happened to the # of attack per turns as per DND? ie: Fighter.

All stats should be good for all classes. In this version, I feel like you have 1 main stat + constitution. (VERY BORING).

I'm sad, currently, this game isn't worth my investment, and if it continues on this line even at release the game will be a dumb down version of Divinity and nothing to do with DND.







Uhmm....you realize 5E is a lot more balanced than 3.5 right? I've played NWN extensively and forever buffing yourself with spells (cause concentration doesnt exist) is not that much fun IMO. lol.

Cause 3.5 was literally that. 10 minutes of buffing then you win the game.



God yes, I hated that monstrously and vehemently. All that buffing and wasting that time, and resting to rebuff, disgusting.

Meldor #693836 13/10/20 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Meldor
Prestige classes bring one addition to your classes, it doesn't feel like a specialization. Multiclass doesn't seem to work.


Instead of Prestige classes, you have class specializations, which appear at level 3 for most classes (level 2 for Wizards, level 1 for Clerics).
Multiclass is planned, but not implemented yet.


Quote
The combat system of 1 action per turn is outrageously boring. What happened to the # of attack per turns as per DND? ie: Fighter.


Extra attacks start at Fighter 5, and similarly for other classes.


Quote
All stats should be good for all classes.


That is not how it works in 5e.


Quote
I'm sad, currently, this game isn't worth my investment, and if it continues on this line even at release the game will be a dumb down version of Divinity and nothing to do with DND.


That's wrong, you are ignorant of the way D&D 5e works, and most of your complaints are actually "D&D 5e is not the same as D&D 3.5e".



Originally Posted by Meldor
This game first, doesnt explain shit about the future of your class or prestige class, therefore you are completely blind in regards to the development.


That is a flaw which needs to be improved, yes.

Quote
Like I said in another post, Why can't I make a fighter focused on archery, with feats every level, like many shots, etc.. why feats are soo trivial now and doesnt bring real content to your character.


You can make a fighter based on Archery by PnP rules, and it was considered by many better than the Ranger class, in part because you got more extra attacks than the Ranger does. The Ranger class in BG 3 is changed. There is a Ranger spell similar to Multishot, but I think it's too high level for EA considering Rangers are only a 1/3 caster. The rest of your complaints are "THIS ISN'T 3.5e". Of course it fucking isn't. That was two editions ago.


Last edited by Stabbey; 13/10/20 03:56 PM.
Meldor #693845 13/10/20 03:53 PM
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BG3 is a long way from being true to DnD 5e also. I hate to think people are judging 5e based on this game.

Meldor #693854 13/10/20 03:55 PM
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Man, my threshold for putting up with idiots who dont understand EA is getting lower and lower.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
Meldor #693860 13/10/20 03:56 PM
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Here is the OP's idea of complexity, find a splat book which rests on an already broken game (base 3.5e) and break it some more while masturbating furiously to how good your build is and then come to complete ecstasy as you stack 20-30 buffs on you. Then ascend into Pun-Pun status. Great experience for the DM and everyone at the table.

3.5e was so good with all those false choices when it comes to min-maxing. Oh, yeah, not to mention that you're almost always suffering from feat tax. Gotta' pick up all the meta magic feats, gotta' pick up power attack, etc.

I mean I had fun, but no one in their right mind would say that the system had meaningful depth because as you soon as you begin to measure it there's already a god build that does everything better (and relies on splat books).

Simplicity is not a bad thing, e.g Chess, Go.


Orbax #693917 13/10/20 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbax
Man, my threshold for putting up with idiots who dont understand EA is getting lower and lower.



Sorry, EA shouldn't be an option for a AAA game. Even more when you have this feel that the game is 1/10 complete.

Giant roadmap ahead for them.

The game is simply not playable or enjoyable enough in this current state to be sold 80$.

For me its Divinity in a shity DND setting 5E.

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