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Meldor #693935 13/10/20 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Meldor

Originally Posted by Orbax
Man, my threshold for putting up with idiots who dont understand EA is getting lower and lower.



Sorry, EA shouldn't be an option for a AAA game. Even more when you have this feel that the game is 1/10 complete.

Giant roadmap ahead for them.

The game is simply not playable or enjoyable enough in this current state to be sold 80$.

For me its Divinity in a shity DND setting 5E.


Welcome to 2020 where information helps drive a better product. Every game should have EA so feedback can be garnered sooner rather than later and changes can be made sooner.

Man, you're dumbed down.




Meldor #693938 13/10/20 04:23 PM
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Skills in 3.5E are complicated but that doesn't really mean that they're deep. At even medium levels, the difference between maxed out class skills and cross-class skills or ones where you're dabbling is so extreme that the latter are basically pointless. And things like "Profession" compete with others that give meaningful combat advantage. It's a mess. 5E's Background system covers a lot of the same territory with a lot more elegance.

Meldor #693940 13/10/20 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Meldor

Originally Posted by Orbax
Man, my threshold for putting up with idiots who dont understand EA is getting lower and lower.



Sorry, EA shouldn't be an option for a AAA game. Even more when you have this feel that the game is 1/10 complete.

Giant roadmap ahead for them.

The game is simply not playable or enjoyable enough in this current state to be sold 80$.

For me its Divinity in a shity DND setting 5E.


Thankfully you barely speak for yourself. All games should be available at EA level.

Meldor #693950 13/10/20 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Meldor

Sorry, EA shouldn't be an option for a AAA game. Even more when you have this feel that the game is 1/10 complete.

Giant roadmap ahead for them.

The game is simply not playable or enjoyable enough in this current state to be sold 80$.

For me its Divinity in a shity DND setting 5E.


lol Larian does not make AAA games. They were very clear about what you were buying into, and I'm sure if you made enough noise you'd be able to get your money back.

I actually agree with you that the game is kinda boring, but don't act like you were sold a lemon.

Meldor #693956 13/10/20 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Meldor

Originally Posted by Orbax
Man, my threshold for putting up with idiots who dont understand EA is getting lower and lower.



Sorry, EA shouldn't be an option for a AAA game. Even more when you have this feel that the game is 1/10 complete.

Giant roadmap ahead for them.

The game is simply not playable or enjoyable enough in this current state to be sold 80$.

For me its Divinity in a shity DND setting 5E.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_life-cycle_management_(marketing)

Sounds like you just dont like 5e. Why you bought into EA, and especially under your assumption this is AAA and therefore will not have EA as an option so therefore this must basically be the game!, is silly and emotional. You wanted something you didnt get, and you wanted those things for little to no reason. Your feelings got hurt. That does not mean this isn't EA, this is a bad implementation of 5e, that this is the final product, or any of the things you seem to be projecting into the future based on what you got. It was not worth $80 TO YOU. There is a difference between price and value, which is why Apple makes way too much money - fanboys will pay triple industry prices for the value of their stuff, at $1200 for a phone when $650 is industry, its a GOOD VALUE to them.

You didn't get your value, the price was too high. Many others have found this to be of good value. Again, the presumptions of what AAA means, what EA means, what buying it meant, and what 5e, larian, and DOS implications would be within its build....maybe watch youtube next time, youd have found out a lot of stuff with a modicum of effort.



Last edited by Orbax; 13/10/20 05:00 PM.

What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
Limz #693986 13/10/20 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Limz
Here is the OP's idea of complexity, find a splat book which rests on an already broken game (base 3.5e) and break it some more while masturbating furiously to how good your build is and then come to complete ecstasy as you stack 20-30 buffs on you. Then ascend into Pun-Pun status. Great experience for the DM and everyone at the table.

I think of all the analogies that could've been used, that's the one we really didn't need to see. Cheers.


J'aime le fromage.
Meldor #694021 13/10/20 04:59 PM
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See this is why I think the TUTORIAL should be levels 1-3 and the midpoint of chapter 1 should be level 5. Levels 1 to 3 in D&D 5e are babbies first adventure, very little complexity and designed to get to know your characters.

the vast majority of all 5e games are levels 5 to 9, because that is where the "meat" of the experience is. The life or death battles, no easy resurrection, and the most well balanced combat

All the ground effects would be less infuriating at higher levels (although it still makes most spellcasters worthless, you will just fail concentration checks all the time since you're constantly on fire)

Last edited by override367; 13/10/20 05:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by override367
See this is why I think the TUTORIAL should be levels 1-3 and the midpoint of chapter 1 should be level 5. Levels 1 to 3 in D&D 5e are babbies first adventure, very little complexity and designed to get to know your characters.

the vast majority of all 5e games are levels 5 to 9, because that is where the "meat" of the experience is. The life or death battles, no easy resurrection, and the most well balanced combat


BG3 is going to be the introduction to 5e for a LOT of players. Larian probably does not want to overwhelm new players with the additional complexity and choices that you'd get if you were creating level 3 characters and needing to pick subclasses.

Orbax #694100 13/10/20 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Meldor

Originally Posted by Orbax
Man, my threshold for putting up with idiots who dont understand EA is getting lower and lower.



Sorry, EA shouldn't be an option for a AAA game. Even more when you have this feel that the game is 1/10 complete.

Giant roadmap ahead for them.

The game is simply not playable or enjoyable enough in this current state to be sold 80$.

For me its Divinity in a shity DND setting 5E.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_life-cycle_management_(marketing)

Sounds like you just dont like 5e. Why you bought into EA, and especially under your assumption this is AAA and therefore will not have EA as an option so therefore this must basically be the game!, is silly and emotional. You wanted something you didnt get, and you wanted those things for little to no reason. Your feelings got hurt. That does not mean this isn't EA, this is a bad implementation of 5e, that this is the final product, or any of the things you seem to be projecting into the future based on what you got. It was not worth $80 TO YOU. There is a difference between price and value, which is why Apple makes way too much money - fanboys will pay triple industry prices for the value of their stuff, at $1200 for a phone when $650 is industry, its a GOOD VALUE to them.

You didn't get your value, the price was too high. Many others have found this to be of good value. Again, the presumptions of what AAA means, what EA means, what buying it meant, and what 5e, larian, and DOS implications would be within its build....maybe watch youtube next time, youd have found out a lot of stuff with a modicum of effort.




You are just showing me that you don't have any clues about game development, when a game is released to public, very little will change. We call that fine tuning. Don't expect major things to change. Some adjustments here and there but the core of the game will remain identical. I'm an old school gamer and I know when a product deliver or not. This one has failed and is begging for funds to get completed.

Saying BG isn't a AAA game. Sorry but this title is HUGE. If you aren't convinced that you are making a AAA game over this title, you shouldn't be the company to put it to life. Plain Simple !

I will add to that, that I pledged over 100$ for Pantheon, Rise of the Fallen. Which will be the real next Everquest and trust me, those devs have good heads. They wont release their game to public before its actually well rounded. Because first impression in 2020 is determinant to a successfull game.

Last edited by Meldor; 13/10/20 05:52 PM.
Meldor #694116 13/10/20 05:52 PM
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I wish I could show people my shelf of 3/3.5 books and my much smaller collection of 5e books when I say this: 5e is by far my favourite edition of D&D. First of all it's not really a fair comparison of the rule systems, NWN2 is like the core books + material picked from a couple of dozen sources. BG3 EA is more like starter edition + some race options. The core classes, fully implemented with multi classing will make a massive difference.

I get that some people love the character building aspect of 3E, that was me. But going to 5E was like realising I had Stockholm Syndrome. The hundreds of prestige classes, thousands of spells and feats aren't 3's greatest strength, they are its worst excess. They don't really let you make more character concepts, they just make building those character concepts more works and act as a barrier for entry. You can run super optimised builds in 5e and you have a lot more latitude within the classes, but because you aren't chasing TAB/AC hyper inflation you have a lot more options for what is viable.

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Originally Posted by Panda Warlord
I wish I could show people my shelf of 3/3.5 books and my much smaller collection of 5e books when I say this: 5e is by far my favourite edition of D&D. First of all it's not really a fair comparison of the rule systems, NWN2 is like the core books + material picked from a couple of dozen sources. BG3 EA is more like starter edition + some race options. The core classes, fully implemented with multi classing will make a massive difference.

I get that some people love the character building aspect of 3E, that was me. But going to 5E was like realising I had Stockholm Syndrome. The hundreds of prestige classes, thousands of spells and feats aren't 3's greatest strength, they are its worst excess. They don't really let you make more character concepts, they just make building those character concepts more works and act as a barrier for entry. You can run super optimised builds in 5e and you have a lot more latitude within the classes, but because you aren't chasing TAB/AC hyper inflation you have a lot more options for what is viable.


I dont mind giving it a better try and see in the future but between lvl 1-4 there is soo little you can customize to make it your UNIQUE character. Just to give you an example: If I ask 10 people to make 10 warrior class on this EA build. I bet all 10 will be exactly the same or very similar except maybe the race but still.

Meldor #694132 13/10/20 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Meldor
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Meldor

Originally Posted by Orbax
Man, my threshold for putting up with idiots who dont understand EA is getting lower and lower.



Sorry, EA shouldn't be an option for a AAA game. Even more when you have this feel that the game is 1/10 complete.

Giant roadmap ahead for them.

The game is simply not playable or enjoyable enough in this current state to be sold 80$.

For me its Divinity in a shity DND setting 5E.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_life-cycle_management_(marketing)

Sounds like you just dont like 5e. Why you bought into EA, and especially under your assumption this is AAA and therefore will not have EA as an option so therefore this must basically be the game!, is silly and emotional. You wanted something you didnt get, and you wanted those things for little to no reason. Your feelings got hurt. That does not mean this isn't EA, this is a bad implementation of 5e, that this is the final product, or any of the things you seem to be projecting into the future based on what you got. It was not worth $80 TO YOU. There is a difference between price and value, which is why Apple makes way too much money - fanboys will pay triple industry prices for the value of their stuff, at $1200 for a phone when $650 is industry, its a GOOD VALUE to them.

You didn't get your value, the price was too high. Many others have found this to be of good value. Again, the presumptions of what AAA means, what EA means, what buying it meant, and what 5e, larian, and DOS implications would be within its build....maybe watch youtube next time, youd have found out a lot of stuff with a modicum of effort.




You are just showing me that you don't have any clues about game development, when a game is released to public, very little will change. We call that fine tuning. Don't expect major things to change. Some adjustments here and there but the core of the game will remain identical. I'm an old school gamer and I know when a product deliver or not. This one has failed and is begging for funds to get completed.

Saying BG isn't a AAA game. Sorry but this title is HUGE. If you aren't convinced that you are making a AAA game over this title, you shouldn't be the company to put it to life. Plain Simple !

I will add to that, that I pledged over 100$ for Pantheon, Rise of the Fallen. Which will be the real next Everquest and trust me, those devs have good heads. They wont release their game to public before its actually well rounded. Because first impression in 2020 is determinant to a successfull game.


I game too. I have 10,000 hours in DOTA 2, 800 in Divinity, 900 in Persona 5, 700 in Tales of Berseria, and the list goes on. Those are average numbers for my gameplay which I have been doing since the early 80s where I made my own crossover cables and was dealing with IPX/SPX to get LANs going. Ive built my own computers since the 80s and been in I.T. for over 25 years. I am the DM of 15 campaigns and I DM 3 times a week. When you say "we" call that fine-tuning. Who is the "we" you are ostensibly part of? If you haven't noticed, indie, greenlight, and EA games are a new norm that is different than it has been in all of gaming history over the last 5 years via the Steam community and things like Star Citizen - which yes, I have backed almost $2,000.00 into and also play regularly and provide feedback for. I am not sure why you are feeling your background is particularly relevant when all you need to do is read their press releases and watch video from WotC and Larian explaining everything I just did.

Last edited by Orbax; 13/10/20 05:58 PM.

What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
Meldor #694138 13/10/20 05:57 PM
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The creep of EA further and further toward "fund my business venture for 0% equity" is pretty disconcerting.

Meldor #694147 13/10/20 06:00 PM
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"You are just showing me that you don't have any clues about game development, when a game is released to public, very little will change. We call that fine tuning. Don't expect major things to change. Some adjustments here and there but the core of the game will remain identical."

My experience from DOS:2 EA to the finished version of DOS:2 was very different from what you stated. I played DOS2 EA the first week it came out - and then about a year or so after it felt like a completely different game. From DOS2 to DOS2 Definitive edition would fit into what you stated.

A little research about what was the vision was for Baldurs Gate 3 and then familiarizing yourself with DND5E ruleset would probably have saved you the frustration you feel over the game at this point in time.

Meldor #694148 13/10/20 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Meldor


You are just showing me that you don't have any clues about game development, when a game is released to public, very little will change. We call that fine tuning. Don't expect major things to change. Some adjustments here and there but the core of the game will remain identical. I'm an old school gamer and I know when a product deliver or not. This one has failed and is begging for funds to get completed.

Saying BG isn't a AAA game. Sorry but this title is HUGE. If you aren't convinced that you are making a AAA game over this title, you shouldn't be the company to put it to life. Plain Simple !

I will add to that, that I pledged over 100$ for Pantheon, Rise of the Fallen. Which will be the real next Everquest and trust me, those devs have good heads. They wont release their game to public before its actually well rounded. Because first impression in 2020 is determinant to a successfull game.


Oh God you're incorrigible.

Here's something you can check out: https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news...mes_that_all_developers_should_study.php

Also add in Hades, NovaDrift while you're at it.

And there's at least one year before now and the release of BG3 and you're saying that our feedback won't have any impact? Please. Just get out.

We can even talk about live services such as Path of Exile that makes major changes to concepts they do every season (because lol every season is a beta test for PoE 2).

Seriously, just get out.


Meldor #694166 13/10/20 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbax


I game too. I have 10,000 hours in DOTA 2, 800 in Divinity, 900 in Persona 5, 700 in Tales of Berseria, and the list goes on. Those are average numbers for my gameplay which I have been doing since the early 80s where I made my own crossover cables and was dealing with IPX/SPX to get LANs going. Ive built my own computers since the 80s and been in I.T. for over 25 years. I am the DM of 15 campaigns and I DM 3 times a week. When you say "we" call that fine-tuning. Who is the "we" you are ostensibly part of? If you haven't noticed, indie, greenlight, and EA games are a new norm that is different than it has been in all of gaming history over the last 5 years via the Steam community and things like Star Citizen - which yes, I have backed almost $2,000.00 into and also play regularly and provide feedback for. I am not sure why you are feeling your background is particularly relevant when all you need to do is read their press releases and watch video from WotC and Larian explaining everything I just did.


I have my share of pledges over the past years, including shity star citizen who will never be a good game EVER! Only a load of fanboi jerking over some bugged ships. The game has no soul. I pledged to SOTA which was suppose to be the spiritual sucessor of Ulitma Online, another pure garbage. Yes we are at a crossroad in the gaming industry where publisher have realized that making a game for all kind of players attraction is nearly impossible and therefore games should be more oriented toward a specific crowd. Now this is DND. Whois going to play a DND game? Mostly all old schooler who enjoyed Pen and Paper in the past and played all BG1 and BG2 including NWN/NWN2. Yes we are nerds. Aim your DND game to a casual crowd and you will see what happen. It's unfolding now. That the company had the odacity to release an Early Access at this development stage is a crime.

Get those Pre-Alpha / Alpha and Beta rolling, get the public in when you are looking for stability and polishing. There are no other way.

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The EA is huge in a lot of aspect but is not in the d&d aspect. They will improve it for sure, its obvious.

Stabbey #694200 13/10/20 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by override367
See this is why I think the TUTORIAL should be levels 1-3 and the midpoint of chapter 1 should be level 5. Levels 1 to 3 in D&D 5e are babbies first adventure, very little complexity and designed to get to know your characters.

the vast majority of all 5e games are levels 5 to 9, because that is where the "meat" of the experience is. The life or death battles, no easy resurrection, and the most well balanced combat


BG3 is going to be the introduction to 5e for a LOT of players. Larian probably does not want to overwhelm new players with the additional complexity and choices that you'd get if you were creating level 3 characters and needing to pick subclasses.


BG3 as it stands ISN'T 5e though, for example, in 5e, having a 5 foot height advantage doesn't trivialize a combat encounter like it does in BG3. Like, the greater invisibility (fourth level spell) spell is going to be pointless because you can just levitate 5 feet up into the air and get the same mechanical benefits with the second level spell levitate, assuming you cant find a rock to climb up

Last edited by override367; 13/10/20 06:25 PM.
Limz #694229 13/10/20 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Limz

Didn't even realize it was you until after I clipped the quote, but sure enough.

The thrust of this article is that these releases are exceptional to the typical Early Access experience, and it's worth noting that Divinity Original Sin 2 didn't make the list. I don't think this makes the point you're after at all, but certainly not as strongly as you seem to believe it does.

Meldor #694238 13/10/20 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Meldor
I bet all 10 will be exactly the same or very similar except maybe the race but still.


I'd take that bet even with fighter being among the most pathological case in the initial EA because it's very likely at least one of those ten went Eldritch Knight. In either sub-class I'm sure some would pick dual wield, some 2h, some defence for weapon styles.

For a better example of how the EA really isn't representative Warlock is a good example. In EA, Fiend patron, Agonising Blast and Repelling Blast, spells as Hex and Mist Step are really synergistic choices that are hard to beat. But that's largely a function of the options that are missing. Limiting them to Pact of Chain, and no level 5 doesn't let you build entropy tanking melee Warlocks, which don't benefit nearly as much from the Eldritch Blast buffing invocations. That's what I mean by latitude within the base classes in 5e which 3e just didn't do. Even then I'm onto my third Warlock (+3 Wylls) and have done different things with all three.

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