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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I was not talking to you and I never called you a racist. The post was directed to DumbleDorf who keeps bringing up identity politics. SHAME on you for insulting me when I wasn't even talking to you. Shows how immature you are. At the end of the day this is just a video game.

I think the OP has flounced so probably won't respond.

However, for the record, I agree with you. I'm uncomfortable in assigning Terran human ethnic characteristics to non-human Faerun races just to meet a diversity target and reflect the world in which we live, but by all means have dwarfs that have negroid facial features or elves that are Asian in appearance. However, make that the effect of the world in which THEY live and not the world in which WE live. If we use Tolkien as the base reference, and most fantasy RPG elves follow his model, then they are all fair skinned and tall. Despite being a South African by birth, Tolkien had no reason to use another ethnic group as his base appearance and culture because he knew what he wanted his elves to look like. That does not mean that another fantasy world creator cannot make elves who are Asian, brown, black or even small and green.

Fantasy races look like they do because that's how we, as consumers and creators of fantasy worlds, visualise them. My 'perfect' model for an elf will look very different to yours and will probably reflect my own culture and upbringing. However, we should both have the option to create a character based on our own vision.


Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Sadurian
If we use Tolkien as the base reference, and most fantasy RPG elves follow his model, then they are all fair skinned and tall. Despite being a South African by birth, Tolkien had no reason to use another ethnic group as his base appearance and culture because he knew what he wanted his elves to look like.


People keep bringing Tolkien up, yet Tolkien has nothing to do with Faerun elves. Faerun elves are not tall and fair skinned necessarily. Moon elves are the variant with the lightest skin, ranging from pale to blueish/purpleish tints. Sun elves have golden and bronzed skin that can range from light, to very dark. Wood elves have coppery, tanned, bronzed or green skin, ranging from light, to very dark as well. Eladrin in 5E are more fairy-like, closer to nature spirit than elf.

And yes, there has been a lot of amazing official artwork, and a lot of in depth descriptions about the way they look like. Much of it, has been left out.


Last edited by Goldberry; 14/10/20 04:28 PM.
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Faerun elves, and most elves from FRPGs, are based on AD&D elves which have Tolkien as their ancestor. That's why they are not furry, tiny, grotesque or overtly faerie folk, and why they are (usually) magically adept and (usually) good swordsmen and archers. The Tolkien depiction has influenced the depiction of FRPG elves from the beginning.

Last edited by Sadurian; 14/10/20 04:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Faerun elves, and most elves from FRPGs, are based on AD&D elves which have Tolkien as their ancestor.


I do not mean to be rude. I truly do not. But did you take a moment to actually read what I posted before you replied?


Originally Posted by Goldberry

People keep bringing Tolkien up, yet Tolkien has nothing to do with Faerun elves. Faerun elves are not tall and fair skinned necessarily. Moon elves are the variant with the lightest skin, ranging from pale to blueish/purpleish tints. Sun elves have golden and bronzed skin that can range from light, to very dark. Wood elves have coppery, tanned, bronzed or green skin, ranging from light, to very dark as well. Eladrin in 5E are more fairy-like, closer to nature spirit than elf.

And yes, there has been a lot of amazing official artwork, and a lot of in depth descriptions about the way they look like. Much of it, has been left out.



What does this have to do with Tolkien? Did Tolkien have blue or green elves? I think I missed that. If you wish to argue about this, and about how DND elves are 'Tolkien-like', then I recommend you to stop and open player handbooks. You might be very surprised.

EDIT: I am sorry if I come off as hostile. I truly do not mean it to seem that way. But the Tolkien argument is simply not going to fly, and people keep bringing it up. This is not Dungeons and Tolkien. Yes, Tolkien set the world base that inspired a lot of fantasy settings. Yes, Dungeons and Dragons took quite a lot of that. That much is true. But the moment they took something, they twisted it, they changed it, and they edited it; it is simply no longer the same. There are plenty of differences between Tolkien Elves and Faerun Elves explained, thoroughly, IN DEPTH, in plenty of DND manuals. They do not look the same. They do not act the same. They are simply not the same.

Last edited by Goldberry; 14/10/20 04:42 PM.
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You missed what I said (ironically). Practically all FRPG elves have Tolkien as their ancestor. He established a 'look' which was human-sized or taller, slender and with pointed ears, being more advanced and long-lived than most of the other races.

Faerun elves are certainly a variation on this. They are not, for example, small and mischievous like English folklore traditionally portrays them, or sinister creatures of shadow as shown in such tales as Beowulf. Nor are they the álfar of Norse mythology, or spirit creatures like in German folklore. They are not Celtic nature spirits or brownies, pucks or any of the other variants of 'elf' that history and folklore portrays. They are not even the odd creatures of Harry Potter.

Tolkien took elements of elves from various folklore sources (mainly Scandanavian) and established how 'his' elves looked, behaved and their place in Middle Earth and the wider world. Tolkien's influence on AD&D is unmistakable and deeply-ingrained; the ranger class, halflings (and halflings being good burglars), ents, balrogs, elves, the list goes on. This was established back in the 1970s, and subsequent AD&D/D&D gameworlds and editions have built upon those origins.

Yes, Faerun elves have Tolkien elves as their ancestors.

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Originally Posted by Sadurian
You missed what I said (ironically). Practically all FRPG elves have Tolkien as their ancestor. He established a 'look' which was human-sized or taller, slender and with pointed ears, being more advanced and long-lived than most of the other races.

Faerun elves are certainly a variation on this. They are not, for example, small and mischievous like English folklore traditionally portrays them, or sinister creatures of shadow as shown in such tales as Beowulf. Nor are they the álfar of Norse mythology, or spirit creatures like in German folklore. They are not Celtic nature spirits or brownies, pucks or any of the other variants of 'elf' that history and folklore portrays. They are not even the odd creatures of Harry Potter.

Tolkien took elements of elves from various folklore sources (mainly Scandanavian) and established how 'his' elves looked, behaved and their place in Middle Earth and the wider world. Tolkien's influence on AD&D is unmistakable and deeply-ingrained; the ranger class, halflings (and halflings being good burglars), ents, balrogs, elves, the list goes on. This was established back in the 1970s, and subsequent AD&D/D&D gameworlds and editions have built upon those origins.

Yes, Faerun elves have Tolkien elves as their ancestors.


I did not miss what you said. To say that Tolkien did influence DND, is very much true. I love Tolkien as much as everyone else, but that's where our agreement ends, for Tolkien has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread, nor when it comes to discuss the way things are in Faerun. Inspired or not; Faerun and Middle Earth are simply not connected.

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Originally Posted by Sadurian
You missed what I said (ironically). Practically all FRPG elves have Tolkien as their ancestor. He established a 'look' which was human-sized or taller, slender and with pointed ears, being more advanced and long-lived than most of the other races.

Faerun elves are certainly a variation on this. They are not, for example, small and mischievous like English folklore traditionally portrays them, or sinister creatures of shadow as shown in such tales as Beowulf. Nor are they the álfar of Norse mythology, or spirit creatures like in German folklore. They are not Celtic nature spirits or brownies, pucks or any of the other variants of 'elf' that history and folklore portrays. They are not even the odd creatures of Harry Potter.

Tolkien took elements of elves from various folklore sources (mainly Scandanavian) and established how 'his' elves looked, behaved and their place in Middle Earth and the wider world. Tolkien's influence on AD&D is unmistakable and deeply-ingrained; the ranger class, halflings (and halflings being good burglars), ents, balrogs, elves, the list goes on. This was established back in the 1970s, and subsequent AD&D/D&D gameworlds and editions have built upon those origins.

Yes, Faerun elves have Tolkien elves as their ancestors.


Exactly I completely agree with you. I think the problem is that some DnD fans are too involved with the franchise where they want to separate the Tolkien influence from DnD's original work. Unfortunately I keep finding elves that remind me of Tolkien's elves. Here's an image of a Ranger Guard Elf from Pinterest that someone drew based on the current DnD 5E handbook.

[img]https://br.pinterest.com/pin/735283076636971553/[/img]

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Unfortunately I keep finding elves that remind me of Tolkien's elves. Here's an image of a Ranger Guard Elf from Pinterest that someone drew based on the current DnD 5E handbook.

[img]https://br.pinterest.com/pin/735283076636971553/[/img]

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Not Legolas, then... You can take the elf out of Tolkien, but it's harder to take Tolkien out of the elf.

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Until reading Tolkein, my view of elves was entirely defined by the Elves and the Shoemaker. Elves were very small, very crafty, and somewhat helpful if you were nice to them. This belief was later enforced by descriptions of Santa Claus' workshop elves up at the North Pole.

I had a hard time accepting the Tolkein version of elves, which are vastly superior to humans in most respects. Tolkein's elves were tragic creatures who engaged in a futile struggle against the passage of time ... and based on the movies, I believe they were also very good at cobbling shoes.

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Originally Posted by Argyle
I had a hard time accepting the Tolkein version of elves, which are vastly superior to humans in most respects. Tolkein's elves were tragic creatures who engaged in a futile struggle against the passage of time ... and based on the movies, I believe they were also very good at cobbling shoes.

Well, they talked cobblers, which is perhaps not the same thing.

I struggled to take Hugo Weaving (Elrond) seriously in the film, trying not see him as Anthony "Tick" Belrose in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. I was expecting him to burst into a drag act version of Abba at any moment.

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Originally Posted by Labayu
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
The point of Early Access is to give feedback on the game, and my main criticism is that the character models are universally terrible and need much improvement. Threads such as this one echo that sentiment and many players feel the same way.
Holding the opinion that the models are universally terrible is different than saying the elves don't look enough like elves. I very much agree with the latter. As far as the former, obviously feel free to express your opinion, but I think they are pretty set on using 3D scans as a starting point.



Yes when I made a thread to discuss the former, it was closed and I was told to talk about it in this one.

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the models aren't terrible, they're very well good.

They just don't look like elves

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Don't touch elves they are refined and pretty as supposed to be. And give them asian or black features is unapropriate and ruin the world atmosphere.

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I don't think the models are awful. They're very nice if you ask me. A bit basic and I do think a bit of customization would help. Just so you can make them a bit more unique (so that every one can make the elf they want). But it might be a work in process it's EA after all.

But what do elves look like? I mean there really is not a universal guide for it. As long as they're not like the skyrim elves I will be happy.

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This is what you said after the comments between Golberry and me. We can see very well what you were implying:
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I have seen this image before but like I mentioned, if you look closely, those elves are still human-like. The difference are the pointy ears, slight eye shape and size, and their face is a bit more angular but at the end of the day, they are still human-like. The OP mention they didn't like that the elves look human with pointy ears. Shadowheart is a half elf so it makes sense for her to look more human. Astarion is a full elf but he's a vampire, maybe they could of made him look more different but the problem is that he a romanceable companion and so they also want to make him look appealing.


I'm pretty sure nobody wants them to look monstruous or ugly, just less relatable while still beautiful and that touch of strangeness to them that makes them seem not caucasic, nor african, nor asian, nor anything but elves.


Nobody except Larian who have decided entirely themselves to do as such without any consideration to how it would actually affect any group of people.


I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond. To the issue of fantasy races having non-white facial features, I don't see what the problem is as long as they act like their fantasy race. For example, if you have an Orc that may have Asian or black facial features but still behaves like an orc, what is the problem with that? I also just opened up the game and went through every race and found that for females, only the Humans and Tiefllings (who have human origins) have Asian and black facial features, which is fine. Now, when it comes to the males, they seem to have mixed it up and gave Asian and black features to full Elves and Drow with the Humans only having white and black features and no Asian. They should have done for the males what they did for the females for only Humans and Tieflings, who are of human origin. To me personally, it is not game breaking to have a humanoid being resemble real world minorities and it is NOT an immersion killer. If that is the problem for some then that might make that person seem like a racist. As I mentioned to you before in the other thread, there are now Asian and black Vulcans but they still behave as Vulcans. It doesn't ruin Star Trek. So, the same can go for Dungeons and Dragons, I don't think having minorities depicted in humanoid creatures is a big deal as long as they remain to to their fantasy race's culture and personality.



And here is my comment:
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Originally Posted by Goldberry
I think there should be less of an argument of making all elves look one way or another and just give both options.

Some traditional looking heads for those of us who prefer an alienness to our elves, and the human like version for those who want to see themselves represented.

I don't agree with it. I dont think a fantasy race needs to represent anything other than themselves, and before you mention, I am mixed race myself.

Still. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. It can be both and everyone is happy.


I agree, but I have to admit that it breaks my immersion a bit, since they will use these models for npc's in the game.



I didn't want to come back here, but it's absurd that you think you have the right to say that kind of thing without any basis, and act like I'm the one who started the insults.

I didn't attack anyone because of their opinions, but you and others try to make it look like I'm a racist. That's disgusting. I challenge you to find a comment that I made that has racist implications ... Well, there are none and you know it.

So, if you have a little decency, you will apologize.

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Quote



I didn't want to come back here, but it's absurd that you think you have the right to say that kind of thing without any basis, and act like I'm the one who started the insults.

I didn't attack anyone because of their opinions, but you and others try to make it look like I'm a racist. That's disgusting. I challenge you to find a comment that I made that has racist implications ... Well, there are none and you know it.

So, if you have a little decency, you will apologize.


That comment that I wrote about someone being a racist was NOT directed to YOU!!! There is NO REASON for you attack me. I was NOT talking to you. The problem is you got tagged because DumbleDorf wrote on your thread. AGAIN, my comment was NOT directed to YOU but to DUMBLEDOF. He was responding to Goldenberry who was responding to ME. This starting quote that I said, should tell you I wasn't talking to you. "I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond." That proves I was talking to Dumbledorf who has another thread that was blocked by the administrator because he was bringing up racial politics and I told him to be careful not to sound like a racist. NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? I would be nice if you apologize to me for calling me a child and immature when I was NOT talking to YOU.

Last edited by vometia; 14/10/20 10:11 PM. Reason: formatting
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This thread is supposed to be about discussing elves not looking otherworldly but you decided to bring real world ethnicities into the conversation and that opened up a whole can of worms. To which the thread became about racial politics. The administrator has come in twice to tell us to stop talking about that but DumbleDorf was the one that insisted and also Goldberry who both have made separate forum threads discussing the topic. That's the problem. You opened a whole can of worms when you started to talk about Asian and Black people. What I'm trying to make you understand is that racial politics is a very touchy subject right now. Especially in the United States. So when I tell someone to be careful not to sound like a racist that is NOT me calling them a racist. Just to be careful how people mention ethnic races. That is all. I'll be the bigger person and say that I AM SORRY if you misunderstood what I was saying but again I was not directing that post to you.

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Non-human races should look non-human, because they are non-human.

Extra human presets are are good idea I think, because we often do want to look like ourselves (just better, because I don't play games to look like a middle aged gamer with disabilities, you know? This is my fantasy - my escape from reality).

Extra half- or part- human presets too, then we can look like ourselves but just a bit "other".

But, for those of us who just want to roleplay the other, then let the other be an option. it's fantasy. We're here because we like fantasy. Let us be fantastic!

Now-a-days, in a modern games, there's no reason not to have both. I love the effort Larian have put into the motion capture, and facial expressions, but the fantasy aspect is important too, and perhaps a little neglected.

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
The administrator has come in twice to tell us to stop talking about that but DumbleDorf was the one that insisted and also Goldberry who both have made separate forum threads discussing the topic.


I received no warning of anything, and my thread was first. And I do not know DumbleDorf from anywhere, so I am clear of whatever you are trying to implicate.

This whole thread is a trainwreck.

Originally Posted by Umbra
Non-human races should look non-human, because they are non-human.

Extra human presets are are good idea I think, because we often do want to look like ourselves (just better, because I don't play games to look like a middle aged gamer with disabilities, you know? This is my fantasy - my escape from reality).

Extra half- or part- human presets too, then we can look like ourselves but just a bit "other".

But, for those of us who just want to roleplay the other, then let the other be an option. it's fantasy. We're here because we like fantasy. Let us be fantastic!

Now-a-days, in a modern games, there's no reason not to have both. I love the effort Larian have put into the motion capture, and facial expressions, but the fantasy aspect is important too, and perhaps a little neglected.


Thank you, someone is finally on topic.

Last edited by Goldberry; 14/10/20 10:11 PM.
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A quiet reminder for everyone to step back, take a breather and let cool heads prevail, please. It's an interesting discussion, I'm sure we don't need any shouting. Plus I have a headache.


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