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Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
The administrator has come in twice to tell us to stop talking about that but DumbleDorf was the one that insisted and also Goldberry who both have made separate forum threads discussing the topic.


I received no warning of anything, and my thread was first. And I do not know DumbleDorf from anywhere, so I am clear of whatever you are trying to implicate.

This whole thread is a trainwreck.

Originally Posted by Umbra
Non-human races should look non-human, because they are non-human.

Extra human presets are are good idea I think, because we often do want to look like ourselves (just better, because I don't play games to look like a middle aged gamer with disabilities, you know? This is my fantasy - my escape from reality).

Extra half- or part- human presets too, then we can look like ourselves but just a bit "other".

But, for those of us who just want to roleplay the other, then let the other be an option. it's fantasy. We're here because we like fantasy. Let us be fantastic!

Now-a-days, in a modern games, there's no reason not to have both. I love the effort Larian have put into the motion capture, and facial expressions, but the fantasy aspect is important too, and perhaps a little neglected.


Thank you, someone is finally on topic.


The only reason I mentioned you, is from my observation that you, the OP and DumbleDorf have been very passionate about not having ethnic minorities like Asian or black represented in fantasy characters. If I have mistaken you for someone else, then I apologize. I agree this thread is a trainwreck. I want to set the record straight that I am not against elves looking like elves just that I don't see a problem with them having somewhat of a real world ethnic minority represented, like a subtle similarity. Since DnD is all about storytelling and how you, the player, sees the world and characters.

Last edited by Lady Avyna; 14/10/20 10:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna

The only reason I mentioned you, is from my observation that you, the OP and DumbleDorf have been very passionate about not having ethnic minorities like Asian or black represented in fantasy characters. If I have mistaken you for someone else, then I apologize. I agree this thread is a trainwreck. I want to set the record straight that I am not against elves looking like elves just that I don't see a problem with them having somewhat of a real world ethnic minority representing. Since DnD is all about storytelling and how you, the player, sees the world and characters.


You are mistaken, at least when it concerns me, I cannot speak for anyone else. I have been an advocate to have both options so that everyone is happy. I have stated so multiple times.

Originally Posted by Goldberry
I think there should be less of an argument of making all elves look one way or another and just give both options.

Some traditional looking heads for those of us who prefer an alienness to our elves, and the human like version for those who want to see themselves represented.

I don't agree with it. I dont think a fantasy race needs to represent anything other than themselves, and before you mention, I am mixed race myself.

Still. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. It can be both and everyone is happy.


Apology accepted though.





Last edited by Goldberry; 14/10/20 10:23 PM.
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I'm not going to bother reading the whole thread, especially as it seems to involve a lot of drama.

I will just say on the topic that I agree that the elves currently look just plain awful. They look more robust than the Half-Elves, which is stupid and counter-intuitive. They don't have the traditional D&D elven appearance, but look much too human. This needs to be rectified ASAP.

The standard colour palette should also support the traditional 'ethnicities' that are known of in the lore, such as Sun Elves, Moon Elves, etc. One minor thing I'd like is a copper hair colour for High Elves of Sun Elven heritage.

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Quote



I didn't want to come back here, but it's absurd that you think you have the right to say that kind of thing without any basis, and act like I'm the one who started the insults.

I didn't attack anyone because of their opinions, but you and others try to make it look like I'm a racist. That's disgusting. I challenge you to find a comment that I made that has racist implications ... Well, there are none and you know it.

So, if you have a little decency, you will apologize.


That comment that I wrote about someone being a racist was NOT directed to YOU!!! There is NO REASON for you attack me. I was NOT talking to you. The problem is you got tagged because DumbleDorf wrote on your thread. AGAIN, my comment was NOT directed to YOU but to DUMBLEDOF. He was responding to Goldenberry who was responding to ME. This starting quote that I said, should tell you I wasn't talking to you. "I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond." That proves I was talking to Dumbledorf who has another thread that was blocked by the administrator because he was bringing up racial politics and I told him to be careful not to sound like a racist. NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? I would be nice if you apologize to me for calling me a child and immature when I was NOT talking to YOU.


I don't really want to argue but I feel like a third party may be needed here. Anung whole point is that he wants elves to look more stylized, lean, chiseled, basically, the classic elf looking. And the classic elf looking doesn't ressemble minority or anything, he looks like his own race. Its basically hight cheekbone, Hollow cheek, slanted eyes, and so on , everyone know what I mean. But in your comment, you called anyone that didn't want elves to look like a real world minority a ''racist'' and that include people who want otherwordly , androgynous, slender elves (because otherworldy elves don't look like world minority. nor like world majority, actually; They just look different). Thus,I understand that you didn't mean that, but the way your comment is put can be misleading.

Last edited by Hachina; 14/10/20 11:05 PM.

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Originally Posted by Hachina
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Quote



I didn't want to come back here, but it's absurd that you think you have the right to say that kind of thing without any basis, and act like I'm the one who started the insults.

I didn't attack anyone because of their opinions, but you and others try to make it look like I'm a racist. That's disgusting. I challenge you to find a comment that I made that has racist implications ... Well, there are none and you know it.

So, if you have a little decency, you will apologize.


That comment that I wrote about someone being a racist was NOT directed to YOU!!! There is NO REASON for you attack me. I was NOT talking to you. The problem is you got tagged because DumbleDorf wrote on your thread. AGAIN, my comment was NOT directed to YOU but to DUMBLEDOF. He was responding to Goldenberry who was responding to ME. This starting quote that I said, should tell you I wasn't talking to you. "I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond." That proves I was talking to Dumbledorf who has another thread that was blocked by the administrator because he was bringing up racial politics and I told him to be careful not to sound like a racist. NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? I would be nice if you apologize to me for calling me a child and immature when I was NOT talking to YOU.


I don't really want to argue but I feel like a third party may be needed here. Anung whole point is that he wants elves to look more stylized, lean, chiseled, basically, the classic elf looking. And the classic elf looking doesn't ressemble minority or anything, he looks like his own race. Its basically hight cheekbone, Hollow cheek, slanted eyes, and so on , everyone know what I mean. But in your comment, you called anyone that didn't want elves to look like a real world minority a ''racist'' and that include people who want otherwordly , androgynous, slender elves (because otherworldy elves don't look like world minority. nor like world majority, actually; They just look different). Thus,I understand that you didn't mean that, but the way your comment is put can be misleading.


Like I mention in another response to someone else, I don't have a problem with elves looking like traditional elves. The issue some of us have comes mostly from DumbleDorf who brought in his dislike of identity politics and is blaming Larian for that. I believe there were also others, I do don't remember who, that also stated they don't want faces to represent ethnic minorities. I am not directly calling anyone a racist. All I'm saying is to be careful not to "seem" like a racist when talking about identity politics as that is a very sensitive subject for some people.

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Goldberry
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
The administrator has come in twice to tell us to stop talking about that but DumbleDorf was the one that insisted and also Goldberry who both have made separate forum threads discussing the topic.


I received no warning of anything, and my thread was first. And I do not know DumbleDorf from anywhere, so I am clear of whatever you are trying to implicate.

This whole thread is a trainwreck.

Originally Posted by Umbra
Non-human races should look non-human, because they are non-human.

Extra human presets are are good idea I think, because we often do want to look like ourselves (just better, because I don't play games to look like a middle aged gamer with disabilities, you know? This is my fantasy - my escape from reality).

Extra half- or part- human presets too, then we can look like ourselves but just a bit "other".

But, for those of us who just want to roleplay the other, then let the other be an option. it's fantasy. We're here because we like fantasy. Let us be fantastic!

Now-a-days, in a modern games, there's no reason not to have both. I love the effort Larian have put into the motion capture, and facial expressions, but the fantasy aspect is important too, and perhaps a little neglected.


Thank you, someone is finally on topic.


The only reason I mentioned you, is from my observation that you, the OP and DumbleDorf have been very passionate about not having ethnic minorities like Asian or black represented in fantasy characters. If I have mistaken you for someone else, then I apologize. I agree this thread is a trainwreck. I want to set the record straight that I am not against elves looking like elves just that I don't see a problem with them having somewhat of a real world ethnic minority represented, like a subtle similarity. Since DnD is all about storytelling and how you, the player, sees the world and characters.



I am willing to believe that you were not talking about me so we can get back on the topic. So I'm sorry for what I said about you. I thought you were implying that I was a racist because I said that elves with human features break my immersion.

I do want minorities represented in the game. What I said is that i prefer that elves and other non-human races to have their own characteristics, which have already been presented in D&D books. Honestly, I don't mind if Larian keeps the current faces, but at least modify them to look less human and more like those of the elves, and by that I mean sharp and angular features, a diamond-shaped face, narrow in the line of eyes and chin, but with high cheekbones.

I really think that the options for human faces should present all ethnic groups, and although I have no problem if the other races also have these options, they should not overlap the original characteristics of each race.


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Originally Posted by Hachina
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Quote



I didn't want to come back here, but it's absurd that you think you have the right to say that kind of thing without any basis, and act like I'm the one who started the insults.

I didn't attack anyone because of their opinions, but you and others try to make it look like I'm a racist. That's disgusting. I challenge you to find a comment that I made that has racist implications ... Well, there are none and you know it.

So, if you have a little decency, you will apologize.


That comment that I wrote about someone being a racist was NOT directed to YOU!!! There is NO REASON for you attack me. I was NOT talking to you. The problem is you got tagged because DumbleDorf wrote on your thread. AGAIN, my comment was NOT directed to YOU but to DUMBLEDOF. He was responding to Goldenberry who was responding to ME. This starting quote that I said, should tell you I wasn't talking to you. "I'm gonna answer you here because it seems like your post was locked where people can't respond." That proves I was talking to Dumbledorf who has another thread that was blocked by the administrator because he was bringing up racial politics and I told him to be careful not to sound like a racist. NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? I would be nice if you apologize to me for calling me a child and immature when I was NOT talking to YOU.


I don't really want to argue but I feel like a third party may be needed here. Anung whole point is that he wants elves to look more stylized, lean, chiseled, basically, the classic elf looking. And the classic elf looking doesn't ressemble minority or anything, he looks like his own race. Its basically hight cheekbone, Hollow cheek, slanted eyes, and so on , everyone know what I mean. But in your comment, you called anyone that didn't want elves to look like a real world minority a ''racist'' and that include people who want otherwordly , androgynous, slender elves (because otherworldy elves don't look like world minority. nor like world majority, actually; They just look different). Thus,I understand that you didn't mean that, but the way your comment is put can be misleading.


Thank you! You said it perfectly.

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It's obvious that the elves look like humans. Here's my proof.. The first thing I tried to create as a character was my ideal male form and it didn't exist under the Human face options. There are two elf male faces that look native to northern Europe, while the Human has two faces that look Anglo. There I was representing myself.. And then I found the Githyanki and said hell yeah! I want to be weird!
@Larian I ask kindly, please let us be weird. Thank you =)


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Elves are Elves, they are not a "race" from our universe, they do not represent any "race" in our universe either, they are fey-born creatures of another plane. Thats how they should look like, alien and different they are not a template to map one of the ethnicities of our world to. They aren't humans with pointy ears.

They are an alien race.

Now Half-Elves, thats a different story.

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I like elves in their current state and tottaly fine with their apperance. I don't wanna play freaks. Please,devs, don't listen these fools.

Last edited by Veles; 15/10/20 09:12 AM.
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So... yeah elves come from the Feywild yada yada yada... none of that explains why elves can't have features which set them apart ethnically. The Feywild is a "wild" mirror of the Prime Material Plane is it not? So the elves/eladrin/fey whatever that come from the equator of that reflection (the tropics) are going to look different than the elves who come from the far north. Just as humans do who have developed in different parts of the world. This is why "Asian" or "African" looking elves are just as valid as any other sort of elf. Same goes for dwarves, halflings, etc.

I agree - give them more delicate, angular features. Make them look less human - but I still guarantee an elf from the desert, who's people have lived their for millennia, will look different than elves from a temperate forest.

There's really no argument in my mind against the existence of elves with features other than caucasian.


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Originally Posted by TrollishMcTroll
So... yeah elves come from the Feywild yada yada yada... none of that explains why elves can't have features which set them apart ethnically. The Feywild is a "wild" mirror of the Prime Material Plane is it not? So the elves/eladrin/fey whatever that come from the equator of that reflection (the tropics) are going to look different than the elves who come from the far north. Just as humans do who have developed in different parts of the world. This is why "Asian" or "African" looking elves are just as valid as any other sort of elf. Same goes for dwarves, halflings, etc.

I agree - give them more delicate, angular features. Make them look less human - but I still guarantee an elf from the desert, who's people have lived their for millennia, will look different than elves from a temperate forest.

There's really no argument in my mind against the existence of elves with features other than caucasian.


No one's arguing to make them Caucasian-looking (or if they are, they're missing the point). The argument is that elves in D&D are not humans and do not resemble any human races. They are unique and they have their own unique races. Sun Elf, Moon Elf, Drow, etc. Those are the elven races, and they are not comparable to human races in characteristics. This should be represented faithfully in the game.

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Originally Posted by Sechrima
Originally Posted by TrollishMcTroll
So... yeah elves come from the Feywild yada yada yada... none of that explains why elves can't have features which set them apart ethnically. The Feywild is a "wild" mirror of the Prime Material Plane is it not? So the elves/eladrin/fey whatever that come from the equator of that reflection (the tropics) are going to look different than the elves who come from the far north. Just as humans do who have developed in different parts of the world. This is why "Asian" or "African" looking elves are just as valid as any other sort of elf. Same goes for dwarves, halflings, etc.

I agree - give them more delicate, angular features. Make them look less human - but I still guarantee an elf from the desert, who's people have lived their for millennia, will look different than elves from a temperate forest.

There's really no argument in my mind against the existence of elves with features other than caucasian.


No one's arguing to make them Caucasian-looking (or if they are, they're missing the point). The argument is that elves in D&D are not humans and do not resemble any human races. They are unique and they have their own unique races. Sun Elf, Moon Elf, Drow, etc. Those are the elven races, and they are not comparable to human races in characteristics. This should be represented faithfully in the game.


Very much, the ones that resemble their human lineage are Half-Elves, no issue with adding ethnic influences there because it fits.

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Originally Posted by TrollishMcTroll
So... yeah elves come from the Feywild yada yada yada... none of that explains why elves can't have features which set them apart ethnically. The Feywild is a "wild" mirror of the Prime Material Plane is it not? So the elves/eladrin/fey whatever that come from the equator of that reflection (the tropics) are going to look different than the elves who come from the far north. Just as humans do who have developed in different parts of the world. This is why "Asian" or "African" looking elves are just as valid as any other sort of elf. Same goes for dwarves, halflings, etc.

I agree - give them more delicate, angular features. Make them look less human - but I still guarantee an elf from the desert, who's people have lived their for millennia, will look different than elves from a temperate forest.

There's really no argument in my mind against the existence of elves with features other than caucasian.



as people above have said, Elves DO have their own ethnic divergences, thats the whole point to subraces. In Forgotten realms there are quite a few
High Elves
- Sun Elves: Regal looking, typically bronzed skin, they have hair colours of brown/red/copper/gold typically and their eyes are usually black, gold or silver
- Moon Elves: Pale skin, often with a blue or purple hue, hair colours covering all human ones plus silver and blue, their eyes are usually blue or green with gold flecks
- Star Elves: pale skin with gold, silver or red hair and tend to be particularly slender, their eyes are similar to moon elves

Wood Elves
- Copper Elves: tend to be broader and sturdier, tan or bronzed skin, copper, brown, black or golden blond hair with eyes of green, hazel or brown. Wood elves are technically one of the only races of elves native to Faerun, the reason for this is they come from intermingling of Wild Elves with other elves over many generations.
- Wild/Green Elves: tend toward darker skin tones from tanned to dark brown, usually have darker hair colour and eyes similar to copper elves.

Eladrin : Eladrin are Elves native to the feywild still, their appearance literally changes with the seasons, they look a lot like Sun Elves in terms of their regal appearance, but their hair, skin and eye colours change with the passing of each season, as does their personality.

Drow
- Lolthian Drow: Shorter than surface elves, they're graceful and regal looking, their skin is almost always shades of obsidian, purple, grey. brown or blue undertones differentiate them though, their eyes are almost always red, with violet and amber being rare exceptions, their hair is always white or off white. Their colouring is part of a curse put upon them by Corellon for their actions around the early crown wars.
- Dark Elves (Seldarine drow in this game): These drow have had Corellons curse lifted due to actions shortly before the spellplague. They have reverted to their original colourations (NOT how they're shown in the game) and look a lot like Wild/Green Elves for colouration.

Lythari: Esentially a unique non-evil breed of Elven werewolf that doesn't have a hybrid form, they're usually depicted as pale with grey or white hair both in elf and wolf form. But they're usually found in Wood Elf lands, so in theory make more sense to match their colouring to some extent.

Avariel: Winged Elves, their features are even more delicate than other elves, with eyes that are larger than most too, their eyes tend to be bright blues, greens or even purple, their skin colour isn't really described anywhere but the only art of them shown has been pale/tanned. Their hair and wings tend to be black/white/silver. Though the most well known Avariel, Aerie from BG2 has blond hair. Avariel are noted as being shorter than High or Wood elves in the same way that drow are.

Aquatic Elves: their build is probably the most sturdy of all the elves and tend to be tall. Their skin tends toward blues and greens, but sometimes browns or even silvers, their hair is usually blacks, greens, blues, browns or even red. Their eyes are usually black, blue, white, green or very rarely silver.


Regardless of the kind, they all have the angular features, almond eyes and pointed ears. None of them can grow facial hair or have body hair.

If Larian really want to include human ethnicities in the different elves, they should at least try and correlate the human ethnicities to those subraces and go from there. Right now the Elves are just /wrong/ and it's crazy because there are EXCELLENT resources available for multiple editions of D&D describing all the above.

Most notably for D&D 5e, Sword Coast Adventurers Guide which should honestly be a default inclusion for this game anyway, considering the setting.

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Originally Posted by blindhamster
Originally Posted by TrollishMcTroll
So... yeah elves come from the Feywild yada yada yada... none of that explains why elves can't have features which set them apart ethnically. The Feywild is a "wild" mirror of the Prime Material Plane is it not? So the elves/eladrin/fey whatever that come from the equator of that reflection (the tropics) are going to look different than the elves who come from the far north. Just as humans do who have developed in different parts of the world. This is why "Asian" or "African" looking elves are just as valid as any other sort of elf. Same goes for dwarves, halflings, etc.

I agree - give them more delicate, angular features. Make them look less human - but I still guarantee an elf from the desert, who's people have lived their for millennia, will look different than elves from a temperate forest.

There's really no argument in my mind against the existence of elves with features other than caucasian.



as people above have said, Elves DO have their own ethnic divergences, thats the whole point to subraces. In Forgotten realms there are quite a few
High Elves
- Sun Elves: Regal looking, typically bronzed skin, they have hair colours of brown/red/copper/gold typically and their eyes are usually black, gold or silver
- Moon Elves: Pale skin, often with a blue or purple hue, hair colours covering all human ones plus silver and blue, their eyes are usually blue or green with gold flecks
- Star Elves: pale skin with gold, silver or red hair and tend to be particularly slender, their eyes are similar to moon elves

Wood Elves
- Copper Elves: tend to be broader and sturdier, tan or bronzed skin, copper, brown, black or golden blond hair with eyes of green, hazel or brown. Wood elves are technically one of the only races of elves native to Faerun, the reason for this is they come from intermingling of Wild Elves with other elves over many generations.
- Wild/Green Elves: tend toward darker skin tones from tanned to dark brown, usually have darker hair colour and eyes similar to copper elves.

Eladrin : Eladrin are Elves native to the feywild still, their appearance literally changes with the seasons, they look a lot like Sun Elves in terms of their regal appearance, but their hair, skin and eye colours change with the passing of each season, as does their personality.

Drow
- Lolthian Drow: Shorter than surface elves, they're graceful and regal looking, their skin is almost always shades of obsidian, purple, grey. brown or blue undertones differentiate them though, their eyes are almost always red, with violet and amber being rare exceptions, their hair is always white or off white. Their colouring is part of a curse put upon them by Corellon for their actions around the early crown wars.
- Dark Elves (Seldarine drow in this game): These drow have had Corellons curse lifted due to actions shortly before the spellplague. They have reverted to their original colourations (NOT how they're shown in the game) and look a lot like Wild/Green Elves for colouration.

Lythari: Esentially a unique non-evil breed of Elven werewolf that doesn't have a hybrid form, they're usually depicted as pale with grey or white hair both in elf and wolf form. But they're usually found in Wood Elf lands, so in theory make more sense to match their colouring to some extent.

Avariel: Winged Elves, their features are even more delicate than other elves, with eyes that are larger than most too, their eyes tend to be bright blues, greens or even purple, their skin colour isn't really described anywhere but the only art of them shown has been pale/tanned. Their hair and wings tend to be black/white/silver. Though the most well known Avariel, Aerie from BG2 has blond hair. Avariel are noted as being shorter than High or Wood elves in the same way that drow are.

Aquatic Elves: their build is probably the most sturdy of all the elves and tend to be tall. Their skin tends toward blues and greens, but sometimes browns or even silvers, their hair is usually blacks, greens, blues, browns or even red. Their eyes are usually black, blue, white, green or very rarely silver.


Regardless of the kind, they all have the angular features, almond eyes and pointed ears. None of them can grow facial hair or have body hair.

If Larian really want to include human ethnicities in the different elves, they should at least try and correlate the human ethnicities to those subraces and go from there. Right now the Elves are just /wrong/ and it's crazy because there are EXCELLENT resources available for multiple editions of D&D describing all the above.

Most notably for D&D 5e, Sword Coast Adventurers Guide which should honestly be a default inclusion for this game anyway, considering the setting.


+1

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So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?


Read the fine print.
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Originally Posted by Veles
I like elves in their current state and tottaly fine with their apperance. I don't wanna play freaks. Please,devs, don't listen these fools.



Are you able to give your opinion without offending anyone?

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Originally Posted by Veles
I like elves in their current state and tottaly fine with their apperance. I don't wanna play freaks. Please,devs, don't listen these fools.

I don't want to play elves, full stop. They are over-rated, narcissistic and so up their own digestive systems that they can watch their stomachs emptying. Odd bat-eared anorexics that they are.

Bah. Remove elves altogether and fill the space with gnomes and more dwarves. You know it makes sense.

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I don't know why people keep throwing my name around or accusing me of racism when all I had done was get upset about what Larian themselves have stated and written as per this article:

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/20...e-faces-of-eight-races-for-early-access/

I have stopped making connections to real world issues since I was asked to, however note that the OP in this thread did also make this connection, so it was an on topic discussion:

Quote
... but Asians are human, and elves are not.


Neither me, the OP, or anyone else are making these connections. Larian themselves however have:

Quote
“We decided to use scanned faces in our production to create characters that were as realistic as possible. We scanned 40 people of different ages and ethnicity. While scouting for models we focused on features that would fit our fantasy races and we looked for faces that either had something unique about them or were very versatile to fit different characters.” Dubrovina says those 40 faces became the starting points for a total of 150 faces Larian created for the game.


People are simply trying to say that we not only do not like this decision, and that I personally find it highly offensive, but this design choice has evidently not created good results, mainly due to the fact that people are not fantasy races.

We would prefer the traditional method of either fully customisable characters, and / or hand crafted faces created by artists, as it is not only tried, tested and long proven to create better results, but this new method that Larian have used has comparatively created far inferior faces than would otherwise be possible.

I do not like any of the faces I can choose, and this prevents me from playing most of the races, not just limited to elves.

I would at least like to have the option to handcraft my own characters.




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Location: Rugby, UK
Originally Posted by Anung un Rama
Are you able to give your opinion without offending anyone?

You need to grow a thicker skin, mate.

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