Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General A more coherent letter to Larian Studios

Hey guys, my name's Gary, i'm 36 yrs old...a retired attorney raising 2 kids, and a lifelong lover of rpg and Baldur's Gate. I've done so many run-throughs of Baldur's Gate and BGII that I can't remember some of them. Solo runs, runs with every class, race, and combination thereof. I've downloaded mods to change the game, to randomize the drops so I didn't know where all the best weapons were anymore. Re-bought the enhanced editions, Siege of Dragonspear, ect. All of this is to say, I know BG I and II inside and out, and I come to this game with high expectations. I've also played PoE and DOS, Dragon Age, and Skyrim. None of them captured the magic of BGI or II in my opinion. None of them made me want to endlessly replay, or in some cases, even finish, the game.

What was it that made BGI and II so special? For me, it was the combination of open-world exploration, unforgiving consequences, and exactling specialization.

Why can't a thief pick up a 2 handed greatsword? Why is a cleric restricted to maces and war hammers? Why do druids favor quarterstaffs? There is a logical, realistic explanation for each of these. Sure a thief "could" pick up a 2 hander, but he is a thief. He has spent his life learning to pick pockets, hide in shadows, find traps, and open locks. He has developed high levels of dexterity and charisma. Have you ever picked up a 2 handed sword? It's extremely heavy, and it's double-edged. You will kill yourself with it if you try to use it in battle and don't know what you are doing. THIS is why thieves can't use them in BGI or II. Because it wouldn't make sense. Clerics, likewise, have focused much of their lives on their god/goddesses, learning how to call down their power, and use simpler, less skill intensive weapons as a result. There are common sense reasons behind every specialization, but this leads to the endless replayability. How many times did you come across a weapon of incredible power and couldn't use it effectively. Then did you wonder how powerful your character would be if he had grandmastery in katana's while wielding Celestial Fury? So what did you have to do? Play the game again, this time as a dual-classed fighter/thief who achieved grandmastery in katana's before changing his profession. THIS was the kind of situation that led to unlimited replayability.

Now as to the open-world exploration, do you remember Baldur's Gate I, when you left candlekeep, and the whole sword coast opened up to you, all at once? You could follow the path and course that were recommended for you, that would more the story along, OR you could literally wander the countryside discovering new maps and zones to your hearts content, and very easily be eaten by a wolf or gibberling if you weren't ready for it. This feeling of freedom was unprecedented, and still to this day only truly exists in Baldur's Gate I. Even BGII had a much more linear path that didn't allow travel to other areas unless you had a quest for it. And what happened if you did that in BGI and bit off more than you could chew? Death and reload. If your party member died but not too horribly, you could resurrect with a spell or by taking him to a temple, but if your MC died...no helping hand would be getting him up. That made it more challenging, and also more satisfying.

How do I feel about BG3? Well, it's good. I enjoy playing it. I enjoy the co-op a lot more than single player, because controlling 4 characters by myself in turn-based combat is...tedious. But it's still a good story with gorgeous graphics and it's set in one of my favorite fantasy worlds of all time. But it isn't magical. The terrain forces you to go where you need to go. No true freedom of exploration to be had here. But this is okay, most games are like this nowadays, Pillars of Eternity being the exception.

The weapon and spell structure is almost generic. How does a shield dwarf soldier have the SAME proficiency in war hammers as a rogue soldier? lol, I just can't. How do spells "miss?" I mean, it's magic...now magic misses? BGI and II rolled for damage, not for hit, and included a sophisticated resistence and immunity structure based on class, race, item bonuses, and spell protections, to create a complex and refined system. In comparison, BG3 's magic and weapons systems feel made for a 6 year old. It's dumbed down. The specialization is gone, for the most part. The endless customization seems more focused on cosmetics then skills. You gave me 40 different hair styles to choose from, but you won't give me 5 levels of weapon specialization? I've got a shield dwarf right now that does more damage with a longsword than a battle axe. I don't understand the reasoning behind that, and I think that's because there isn't any. I think Larian just doesn't grasp or value the importance of weapon specialization and how it relates to replayability.

Dialogue is also tedious. I read a lot faster than people talk. I enjoy a cutscene here or there, especially on important interactions. But for some reason Larian has decided every single interaction needs to be voiced and acted. I don't understand this either, but at least they allow me to skip through it with the spacebar.

And finally, it almost seems like the game is doing everything it can to keep you from dying. Lose all your HP? So what, a teammate will just pick you up by the hand and ur back on your feet. Nearly dead? No healing spells? Meh, just hit that campsite button. No need to find a cleric and spend money, or rest to replenish your party's heal spells. Maybe this is appealing to some, but I don't play a game for it to be easy. I want the challenge. BG3 is better than some games about this, but the "help" feature is just lame. You would be much better served doing away with it.

I won't get into the turn-based combat vs real time with pause debate here, as I can see how real time with pause in this game would be difficult to pull off. For the way this game is constructed, I understand the decision.

It's probably way too late for them to do anything with the weapon specializations, but it is my biggest disappointment. I loved being able to take a dwarf fighter all the way to grandmastery with hammers and axes and dual wield one in each hand, then go back and do it again with a different weapon. Now it almost seems like it just doesn't matter what character i am or what weapon i pick up, if i just choose soldier for the background of ANY of my classes.

So, for me, as it stands, good game, will finish it, but will also probably be done with it after 2 or 3 playthroughs, and that is just so extremely disappointing.

Oh, as a side note, in multiplayer my friends and I have noticed that sometimes, the game allows multiple people to be attacking at the same time. We aren't sure if this is a glitch or just a feature of having more than one person able to control characters, and it seems that it still only gives us one turn per round, but if it is a glitch...please don't fix it. This is one of those good bugs that really make the game flow better. Please keep it, make it a staple feature. IF all 4 players can execute their turn each round without having to switch from character to character, co op will be greatly superior to single player.

Characters being able to move simultaneously when their truths coincide is an intentional design, not a bug.

A lot of your complaints are more about 5th Edition D&D rather than BG3 specifically, and those rules will not be changed.

tl;dr: "This is not 2e, I want another game based on the 22-year old rules".

Some magic has been capable of missing the target since 3.0, if not earlier.

Also, you don’t seem to understand how proficiencies work. The soldier background gives skill proficiencies in athletics and intimidation, but does not give any weapon proficiencies. A rogue using a Warhammer will not get to use their proficiency bonus when attacking.

Specific weapon proficiencies are gone, but in 2nd edition D&D, weapon proficiency was pretty much the only thing fighters could choose to make themselves distinct from one another. In 5th edition ever class is making some sort of choice every time they level up, allowing for far more variety than the rigidity if 2E ever could.

Maybe it's time for a 6th edition then. This post isn't about DnD edition rules, but what makes a great game. There's a reason Baldur's Gate continues to be one of the all-time great games, and if that reason is that the 2nd and 3rd edition rules lent itself to a better pc game, we shouldn't be dismissing it simply because it's 22 years old.

5th edition is wildly popular and with good reason. As somebody who grew up playing AD&D 2/2.5, I will take 5E any day. The old rules were often convoluted and arbitrary. There was nothing refined about the old saving throw tables. 😂

Then that letter should go to WotC, not Larian Studios, who have been contracted by WotC to make a game based on the current existing rules, not the 22-year old rules. This is in part because WotC is a business and they want people to get excited and buy their current products.

It really is though. You don't like very core things to 5E. On that though, BG3 does not so a faithful implementation of the whole system. Even so, like with proficiency, that won't change. They're determined by both class and background. You want it to be by class only.

Really? because I can't find any other pc games based on 5th edition dnd rules. BG3 is the first one to my knowledge. You seem to be trying to make this about the rule set, but I'm trying to focus on computer games. It may be wildly popular, but the jury is still out on whether it makes for a great computer game.

4E probably would have made a better videogame. No one ever made one, though. There's another 5e-based game entering EA in a week: Solasta: Crown of the Magister.

I’m just letting you know that lots of your complaints have to do with you not liking (and in some cases not understanding) 5th edition rules. Larian does not have a choice in whether or not to use 5th edition, so those rules aren’t going to be changed in BG3.

That being said, a lot of the rules in BG 1 and 2 didn’t work particularly well. Choosing your weapon proficiencies for a fighter is not more engaging or interesting than building a fighter in 5th edition / BG3 for most people.

Alright look, Larian Studios wants feedback, and this is mine. If you think I should be writing to WotC, i say, maybe WotC will listen to Larian Studios a bit more closely then they would me. It's just my opinion. I'm not trying to pick a fight lol.

As for class vs background, nah that's really not it. I don't care if it's determined by both class and background, I just think there should be more to it past character creation. Seems to have great depth at character creation, but is surprisingly shallow thereafter, in my opinion.

I wish 5e gave us epic levels, or more attributes available.

I totally understand your point of view because I have nearly the same experience than you about BG1/2.

But I have to agree with others (and I don't often agree with some of them^^), the rules had changed, and that's good.
This is a little bit disturbing but the more I try to understand those rules, the more I think they're great for a video game.

That said, it's only about the rules and that's not your entire message...

About exploration, I totally agree with you. The feelings in BG1/2 were way different than here. Again, the worldmap is USELESS, as in DoS and I'm very dissapointed about that.
BG3 deserve something better than a cosmetic worldmap... even if the structure of the maps/act/region won't change.
At least I really hope they'll change their awfull MMORPG fast travel system for it to hbecome a part of the worldmap. Better than nothing I guess.

I also agree with dialogs... and even more because I read them in french... And I read way faster than they talk... and I don't always understand what they say
Even for a totally useless dialogs, you have those cinematics (hello the 2 characters dying on the nautiloid), fully voiced to say... nothing interresting...
This is a waste of time and a waste of ressources... Those cinematics are great but should stick to interresting, related to quests, lore and that kind of things...
Someone that say "I have nothing to say, you just loose 15 seconds" should say it in a popup, not in a cinematic. Gonna be fun when we'll reach Baldur's Gate....

I also agree woth the HP things but I think things has to be balanced.
There are too many things to keep your HP high during battles ("oh wait, I'm going to eat an apple before I try to hit you"), and even with that you have to rest everytime because of your spells...


That said, please try to reconsider things and think about the game in a few days/weeks.

Maybe I'm too optimistic but I really think it's still time for it to become a legendary BG new gen.
Of course many things have to change according to me and Larian has to hear/understand why BG1/2 are still in the head of so many people... and why it became legendary games.

No, but he is. Judging by his first comment he's clearly not here to listen to people having different opinions.

Anyway i'm agree with your opinion on character builds. So far it seems quite poor compared to other editions like 2e or 3e but we can't realy judge knowing that lvl are capped to 4 and that there will be tons of items to build with and around.

Different opinions are fine. But "I want the game to have the 2e rules" isn't a useful opinion, because it is flat out not going to happen.

Gary, can I point you to Pathfinder:Kingmaker or its followup Pathfinder:Wrath of the Righteous if you haven't seen them. These should provide you with the experience you're looking for. The 3.5e system Pathfinder is based on is as far above 2e in complexity and verisimilitudinous modelling as 5e is below it - I think you'll be in heaven. Take a look.

Learn to read Stabbey... He probably didn't know about the rules. Warlocke inform him... You taunt him spitting your poison again.

Everyone is not a D&D player and not everyone is hype by the game because it's D&D. He is because it's Baldur's Gate, and Baldur's Gate is not only D&D