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Joined: Mar 2020
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Most the OP's complaints fall into 2 categories:

1) Not understanding 5E rules.

2) Liking Baldur's Gate 1 & 2's ruleset more.


You're fine to have your opinion, OP, but a post like this is akin to having your friend bake you his first professional cake after he graduates culinary school. He gives you a slice and asks your opinion, and you say 'It's not pie. I like pie. I like the apple pie I had last year. Why can't this be more like that pie?'

It's information, but nothing your friend can use in regards to that 5th Edition cake he made.


For your information:
Weapon proficiency is weapon proficiency; if you are proficient with a weapon, you add your proficiency bonus. If your Prof Bonus is a +3 and your proficient with Short swords; add +3 to your attack. And add your Str mod to the damage. It does not matter if you're a rogue, a warrior or even a mage. If you are proficient, you can use that weapon to it's fullest effect.
And spells have been able to miss since at least 3.5; a ranged touch attack spell misses if you don't hit the characters flat-footed AC. A ray attack can be dodged.
I think only area of effect spells can't miss, but they can be resisted.

And weapons have a flat damage. It's not Larian's choice if weapon <x> has a higher damage than weapon <y>. It has nothing to do with Larian balancing the weapons or 'not grasping' any importance.

And I believe your Proficiency Bonus is also added to skills you are Proficient in. IE: Anyone can do any skill, but you won't get that sweet +3 Prof. Bonus added on unless you are Proficient in it.

And your Background gives you 2 Skill Proficiencies. Not weapon or armor proficiencies.

I don't think you even get skill points anymore. It's just your Ability Mod + Proficiency (If you are proficient)


So, again; many of your complaints boil down to either not understanding a new ruleset (which happens to everyone) or just liking AD&D more.

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Ya know, it is still an EA. So as far as open/big world and sandboxy, it still has room to be that. I think it has handled the many paths style to each end perfectly fine so far. So I hope it continues on the path it is on. Good write up though.

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Originally Posted by Stilvan
Gary, can I point you to Pathfinder:Kingmaker or its followup Pathfinder:Wrath of the Righteous if you haven't seen them. These should provide you with the experience you're looking for. The 3.5e system Pathfinder is based on is as far above 2e in complexity and verisimilitudinous modelling as 5e is below it - I think you'll be in heaven. Take a look.



I played Kingmaker. It didn't do it for me. I think I made it about 30 hours of gametime. I can't really put a finger on why i wasn't in heaven with Kingmaker, but it just didn't hook me.

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I understand the OP´s concerns, but most of your criticisms are about the 5th edition of D&D, the rules that the game follows, not the game itself.
That´s the way it is now. They can change some things here and there, but the core rules will be in the game.

Last edited by _Vic_; 13/10/20 11:01 PM.
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Looks like the 5th edition rules aren't that great after all. I don't know who made them and why, but would be useful to have a sticky post somewhere here with those rules, and a very detailed explanation of why everything is like that.

I never heard of any of these before, so no comments beyond that these should be clarified right on this site for people like the OP.
There are many reasons for frustration, and understanding why things are how they are can go a long way.

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OP, I don't know why you stole my name or why you chose to be an imposter, but I'll try to offer my perspective.

Larian seems to have adhered to the 5e rules too closely in many cases. It's as if they've never played a game of D&D in their life and they learned it all from the rule books, or maybe WOTC just forced them to. To top it off, 5th edition apparently dumbs down a lot of things, so if you're looking for in-depth character customizations it's not the greatest IMO. Whatever the case may be, Larian chose to make a video game based on D&D 5e rules and called Baldur's Gate 3, and they're the ones I paid, so I expect them to make good decisions and deliver an enjoyable product. Anything to do with WOTC, 5e rules being that way, or whatever is irrelevant to me. 5th edition rules could say that a jump is a bonus action and every dialogue requires a skill check and I'd say Larian should know to get rid of garbage like that that won't translate well to a PC game and won't be enjoyable.

I feel like this game came so close to bridging the gap between 2D Baldur's Gate and 3D gaming, similar to what NWN tried to do. However it's not quite there and I don't think it ever will be. Not due to a lack of technical skill, but rather due to a lack of understanding, bad design decisions, and too much re-use of Divinity assets & mechanics. It'll probably be a good game when it's finished, but it's not going to be for everyone.

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I suspect the 5E rules were made with computer games in mind. This was likely not the case with the previous rule sets. For example, in NWN during the end battle my mage ran out of spells and charged items, and so had to resort to beating the end-boss with a club. It took a while to do that, and as you can imagine, it was not a satisfyingly splendid display of the finest magery. BioWare thanked me for my my feedback, and noted that it was good that I used all my items. One can never know for certain, but I believe my story is the basis for the unlimited/repeatable use of cantrips in 5E, so that wizards will never again have to resort to beating the end-boss with a club.

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Originally Posted by Argyle
I suspect the 5E rules were made with computer games in mind. This was likely not the case with the previous rule sets. For example, in NWN during the end battle my mage ran out of spells and charged items, and so had to resort to beating the end-boss with a club. It took a while to do that, and as you can imagine, it was not a satisfyingly splendid display of the finest magery. BioWare thanked me for my my feedback, and noted that it was good that I used all my items. One can never know for certain, but I believe my story is the basis for the unlimited/repeatable use of cantrips in 5E, so that wizards will never again have to resort to beating the end-boss with a club.


Ohh, no. 4E was the 'video game' ruleset. :P
I rolled a character for 4E, and then got bored when I realize my Cleric would be no different form my Friend's Cleric because our powers were so module and streamlined.
4E felt like a bloody PC game badly ported to pen & paper in an attempt to bring in the 'gamer' crowd.

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I predicted this, fans of the old Baldur's gate games complaining about the new game (Yes I've played them). I haven't played BG3 yet (still downloading) but all I have to say is A) I'm much more excited about a game based off 5e, and two D&D games need to be turn based! Those are my thoughts going into this. We'll see after I've played a bit, but at the moment I'm super hyped!

Last edited by Sosaythedice; 14/10/20 12:36 AM.
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Originally Posted by WeiShiLindon
Maybe it's time for a 6th edition then. This post isn't about DnD edition rules, but what makes a great game. There's a reason Baldur's Gate continues to be one of the all-time great games, and if that reason is that the 2nd and 3rd edition rules lent itself to a better pc game, we shouldn't be dismissing it simply because it's 22 years old.


Oh man. If you find 5th edition a little disappointing, you should thank your lucky stars BG-3 wasn't made with 4th! LOL!

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I read the first third of OP's post and then wrote it off when it became very clear that the general sentiment here is: "BG3 isn't based on the 2e ruleset and this game isn't doing justice to my nostalgia."


I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought.

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This might require another thread but most people are focusing on the 2nd vs 5th ed portion of the letter but as important is the "open world" / non-linear model of BG.

Especially in BG1 I could just forget the plot altogether and decide to see what was happening on the coast for a time. Linearity has been weakness of nearly all the successors to BG such as SoD and PoE1. PoE2 comes closest. Plot? Whatever, I'm going sailing.

I'm waiting to see if act 2 is like chapter 2 of BG2. Can I just go anywhere? If so I think a "skip act 1" mod will be popular just like "Dungeon be gone" was a popular bg2 mod.

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BG1 was very open, but BG2 wasn’t. You could only travel directly to locations outside of Athkatla after you learned about them from NPCs, as opposed to just picking a direction and going on a journey map by map like in BG1. The OP admits this, so it makes it a weird thing to critique. Would it be nice if BG3 was a giant open world, sure, but I’d rather get the game in one year instead of three, and at a certain point Larian will start seeing diminishing returns in how much they are invested versus how many units they will sell, so it just isn’t happening and really isn’t worth talking about.

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The open exploration of BG1 was one of its best features, despite numerous complaints from Draconis, except for that little area in the Northeast part of the city where the Blushing Mermaid inn was located. It took me a long time to figure out how to get across the split map. Ironically, D&D had a spell for just such a situation, Passwall, which was not in the game.

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You shared your piece and that is what they want. This game isn't final, that is why they wanted to do this and give it a solid year, perhaps some of these things will be addressed, I wouldn't rule that out.

One thing that hits home with me you mentioned is the Voice Acting and speed. Pretty much any game you play with VA has overly dramatic acting which slows the dialog down, I still love VA games, I actually like to hear the protagonists ask questions as well, but you can't have everything. Two things: turn off text dialog so you can't read along, that can help relax and listen at their pace. That said I always look for innovation to the standard and as we know things like Youtube has 1.25x speed etc and you can still clearly hear and get the message. A game with a toggle option like that would be a way to address this issue and it is one because they all over-act.

Another TB feature I throw out there from time to time and try something different is to record the actual TB battle and after you fight or whenever you can go back and watch it play out user-less with dramatic camera angles, it would look more realtime and have some cool close up action sequences I'm sure. Perhaps even record all the dialog choices and watch the game you played as a movie and share. I dunno I think that would be cool and something to really knock our socks off, BG5 stuff. That said, I do like for example how they've incorporated dialog choices into streams where the audience can make a choice, I like steps forward like that, that invests the audience more.

Last edited by Horrorscope; 14/10/20 01:14 AM.
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Originally Posted by Eguzky
Most the OP's complaints fall into 2 categories:

1) Not understanding 5E rules.

2) Liking Baldur's Gate 1 & 2's ruleset more.


You're fine to have your opinion, OP, but a post like this is akin to having your friend bake you his first professional cake after he graduates culinary school. He gives you a slice and asks your opinion, and you say 'It's not pie. I like pie. I like the apple pie I had last year. Why can't this be more like that pie?'

It's information, but nothing your friend can use in regards to that 5th Edition cake he made.


For your information:
Weapon proficiency is weapon proficiency; if you are proficient with a weapon, you add your proficiency bonus. If your Prof Bonus is a +3 and your proficient with Short swords; add +3 to your attack. And add your Str mod to the damage. It does not matter if you're a rogue, a warrior or even a mage. If you are proficient, you can use that weapon to it's fullest effect.
And spells have been able to miss since at least 3.5; a ranged touch attack spell misses if you don't hit the characters flat-footed AC. A ray attack can be dodged.
I think only area of effect spells can't miss, but they can be resisted.

And weapons have a flat damage. It's not Larian's choice if weapon <x> has a higher damage than weapon <y>. It has nothing to do with Larian balancing the weapons or 'not grasping' any importance.

And I believe your Proficiency Bonus is also added to skills you are Proficient in. IE: Anyone can do any skill, but you won't get that sweet +3 Prof. Bonus added on unless you are Proficient in it.

And your Background gives you 2 Skill Proficiencies. Not weapon or armor proficiencies.

I don't think you even get skill points anymore. It's just your Ability Mod + Proficiency (If you are proficient)


So, again; many of your complaints boil down to either not understanding a new ruleset (which happens to everyone) or just liking AD&D more.


All you have said is correct, that is the way 5e handles proficiency.


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Originally Posted by Jayce
Originally Posted by WeiShiLindon
Maybe it's time for a 6th edition then. This post isn't about DnD edition rules, but what makes a great game. There's a reason Baldur's Gate continues to be one of the all-time great games, and if that reason is that the 2nd and 3rd edition rules lent itself to a better pc game, we shouldn't be dismissing it simply because it's 22 years old.


Oh man. If you find 5th edition a little disappointing, you should thank your lucky stars BG-3 wasn't made with 4th! LOL!

We don't talk about that edition... .

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Originally Posted by Lindon
OP, I don't know why you stole my name or why you chose to be an imposter, but I'll try to offer my perspective.

Larian seems to have adhered to the 5e rules too closely in many cases. It's as if they've never played a game of D&D in their life and they learned it all from the rule books, or maybe WOTC just forced them to. To top it off, 5th edition apparently dumbs down a lot of things, so if you're looking for in-depth character customizations it's not the greatest IMO. Whatever the case may be, Larian chose to make a video game based on D&D 5e rules and called Baldur's Gate 3, and they're the ones I paid, so I expect them to make good decisions and deliver an enjoyable product. Anything to do with WOTC, 5e rules being that way, or whatever is irrelevant to me. 5th edition rules could say that a jump is a bonus action and every dialogue requires a skill check and I'd say Larian should know to get rid of garbage like that that won't translate well to a PC game and won't be enjoyable.

I feel like this game came so close to bridging the gap between 2D Baldur's Gate and 3D gaming, similar to what NWN tried to do. However it's not quite there and I don't think it ever will be. Not due to a lack of technical skill, but rather due to a lack of understanding, bad design decisions, and too much re-use of Divinity assets & mechanics. It'll probably be a good game when it's finished, but it's not going to be for everyone.


Well, for starters, let me just say how cool it is to find a fellow Cradle fan. I hope you already read Wintersteel, b/c i'm ready to discuss lol. Secondly, as you can tell by the name, I am the real Lindon. You can tell by the Surname. You are just "Lindon." Could be Jai Ma Lindon for all we know. I feel the same way about many of the "functions" in BG3 and we shall just leave it at that. My post sparked some pretty heated responses, which I love to see, b/c it means people are passionate about the game and its future. That will always lead to good things.

I believe most people that responded focused heavily on the "5e vs 2e" portion of my post b/c that was really the only part of it that struck a cord with them. People don't really care about the open world vs linear module or how dialogue is handled, but question their dnd rules and the gloves will come off quickly! At least that's what I learned here lol

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