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So, a Rogue's sneak attack can only be used once per *turn.* It does not say round, so the Rogue uses their sneak attack feature on their first attack that hits an enemy, and when their *turn* ends, a new turn begins, thus they can apply sneak attack damage to opportunity attacks.

Also, it says flat out that if the Rogue has advantage on their attack roll, they can sneak attack. *Then* it goes on to say that they don't need advantage if 1) an enemy of the target that isn't incapacitated is within 5ft of the target. And 2) the Rogue does not have disadvantage on their attack roll. That second part only applies if the Rogue does not have advantage, so am I wrong in thinking that even if a rogue would have disadvantage from something, so long as they have advantage as well, they can still use sneak attack, since they technically still have advantage, and thus the second part about disadvantage being a disqualifier doesn't apply? Extremely pertinent for BG3, I feel, since you get advantage for attacks for simply breathing within 10km of an enemy.

Also yes, sneak attack dice are bugged and not increasing to their proper values. Noticed that on my second character, when I actually used Astarion in my party.

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Originally Posted by cat59
So, a Rogue's sneak attack can only be used once per *turn.* It does not say round, so the Rogue uses their sneak attack feature on their first attack that hits an enemy, and when their *turn* ends, a new turn begins, thus they can apply sneak attack damage to opportunity attacks.

Also, it says flat out that if the Rogue has advantage on their attack roll, they can sneak attack. *Then* it goes on to say that they don't need advantage if 1) an enemy of the target that isn't incapacitated is within 5ft of the target. And 2) the Rogue does not have disadvantage on their attack roll. That second part only applies if the Rogue does not have advantage, so am I wrong in thinking that even if a rogue would have disadvantage from something, so long as they have advantage as well, they can still use sneak attack, since they technically still have advantage, and thus the second part about disadvantage being a disqualifier doesn't apply? Extremely pertinent for BG3, I feel, since you get advantage for attacks for simply breathing within 10km of an enemy.

Also yes, sneak attack dice are bugged and not increasing to their proper values. Noticed that on my second character, when I actually used Astarion in my party.


Yup but since you only have either an action or bonus action triggering Sneak Attack, which would be during your turn (so one use), you only have your reaction left, which you can use once per round, hence you can realistically only ever use Sneak Attack twice a round, even if the rule do not state it as such, since the mechanics result in that outcome.

Advantage and disadvantage cancel each other out.

Last edited by CrestOfArtorias; 14/10/20 02:12 PM.
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Well, in game currently you can only attempt to use sneak attack as an action, regardless of if it's a successful hit, or not, and can't use it for an offhand attack if you do miss with your primary.

Fair enough, only just now read that segment, so guess I should've looked that part up before posting, sorry.

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I am just explaining, I am not mad or anything, so no reason to apologise smile

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Originally Posted by Crikk
You forgot the biggest issue... EVERYONE has "Cunning Action: Hide" from the get-go.
I'm sure this is the DOS2 engine DNA showing through, but they really need to fix that.

I managed to solo the first three brain doggies without taking a point of damage on a Warlock simply by getting to just outside range and then doing a: move into range, snipe with EB, move out of range, hide (which I shouldn't have been allowed to do).
I was going to try a Rogue, but quickly realized (playing other characters) that there is really very, very little advantage to it, or, even any point (if the sneak attack damage is bugged as you say).


The point to playing a Rogue, is that you WANT to play a Rogue - Roleplaying game etc? You indicate that you are a min-maxer type of player <nothing wrong with that>, but Roleplayers don't pick a class because it's FotM. We only have access to 4 levels at the moment, so we don't know what Larian have in mind to how the Rogue <or any other class for that matter> will flesh out. I'm sure Larian won't have any class that is pointless in playing.


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+1 to most of this.

I also would love a Sneak attack toggle OR simply just auto-add Sneak attack when it would apply.

Last edited by SeeJay; 14/10/20 03:15 PM.
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We do know however that the Rogue as it is present in 5e is not what they do have in mind.

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Rogue is doing a huge chunk of my damage with at least 50% sometimes more of my kills.
Getting advantage just for being on higher ground makes getting sneak attack easy for ranged.
Getting advantage for getting behind someone makes getting sneak attack easy for melee.
Yes you have to move to t he right position and then click the sneak attack button instead of just clicking someone to move and do an auto attack, hopefully that will get modified.
I'm not sure the second bonus action adds all that much other than a nice little finisher if you leave them with say 6 or less hit points after the initial sneak attack.

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Originally Posted by Koshea
Rogue is doing a huge chunk of my damage with at least 50% sometimes more of my kills.
Getting advantage just for being on higher ground makes getting sneak attack easy for ranged.
Getting advantage for getting behind someone makes getting sneak attack easy for melee.
Yes you have to move to t he right position and then click the sneak attack button instead of just clicking someone to move and do an auto attack, hopefully that will get modified.
I'm not sure the second bonus action adds all that much other than a nice little finisher if you leave them with say 6 or less hit points after the initial sneak attack.


The extra bônus action adds quite a lot since It adds dex to damage, with a +1 shortsword which is pretty easy to find, at level 4 your extra bonus attack does 5 + 1d6 for avarage of 8,5 damage per turn. But without de dex bonus it'd already be much more balanced, not sure if still OP or not, might be worth a try.
Something weird too is that you can use offhand attack twice, switch weapons and ranged attack another target, I really don't like the way offhand attacks are being used as bônus action with no restrictions whatsoever, and somehow with a free fighting style, which was rendered useless.

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Please Larian, Do not! "Simply just auto-add sneak attack , when it would apply" Do not!

I like having the extra choice/option/action buttons


I'm also enjoying rogue. Feels powerful. I wish the other classes didn't have such easy access to stealth but... meh

Keep up the good work!

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Rogues are by far one of the strongest classes in EA.
I wouldn't change anything.

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Originally Posted by Alodar
Rogues are by far one of the strongest classes in EA.
I wouldn't change anything.

But why are they so strong ? This is not a rhetorical question. I didn't play Rogue that much.

The one thing I'm aware of, is that they get a 2nd Bonus Action (which is specific to BG3's Rogue, it's not there in 5E), and that the current state of the game allows us to use that 2nd Bonus Action to take a 2nd Off-Hand Attack. Thus, a BG3 Rogue can do 3 attacks in a rounds (the 5E rulebook says you can take only one Bonus Action on your turn, and so a Rogue could make only 2 attacks). Also, given the ridiculous Backstab mechanism, in the current state of the game, it is not too difficult to have Advantage on those 3 attacks.

So if the answer to "why so strong" is just that other (hopefully temporary) mechanisms are a bit bonkers and allow for a super-strong Rogue, then the Rogue is in fact super-strong only temporarily. From what I've head, 5E Rogues are supposed to be good at dealing damage anyway. But right now, it feels as if BG3 Rogues are so for wrong reasons.

Overall, I'd prefer not to have dubious tweaks added to Rogue in order to compensate for a balance that is displaced/disturbed/changed by another dubious general rule. I think it might be better to first have a good set of general rules for everyone, and then see whether Rogues need a boost to be good damage-dealers.


Originally Posted by Tylerjames
Please Larian, Do not! "Simply just auto-add sneak attack , when it would apply" Do not!

Well, I hope they do. Or at least, that they give us a switch to activate/de-activate it. Like Dual Wielding (although the QoL Dual Wielding is currently poorly implemented, so it's not the best example).

Because I don't see a lot of situations where it might be interesting to not use Sneak Attack if your attack is eligible for it.


Hoping we'll be able to create great assumptions-free Custom Characters and be given great roleplay options.
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I, as with some other, SOLO 'lonewolf' play. As such, with 656.1 hours total played, here are my findings:

Strongest SOLO classes currently:

Battlemaster
Rogue
Ranger Melee
Wizard
And Cleric (specifically Light Cleric and Trickster Cleric) can solo but not as easily as the above 4.
Warlock, I have yet to solo with a warlock. In their current configuration and level cap at 4, its painful, very painful, no where near the SOLO capabilities of the first 4, no where near.

Playing SOLO means that we SOLO players typically have a different mindset compared to those who primarily do full party runs. We have to think more, plan more, prep more, especially if you challenge your run by not only playing SOLO (no other party member) coupled with permadeath, meaning no save scumming and when you die, you start over verses a reload.

ROGUE is strong, very strong because positioning is near amounts everything. When you can wreck the Bulette or Mino's in less than four turns using a ROGUE (or any build for that matter) using only two shortswords, you got a pretty strong build who is using the best equipment/weapons for that build. ROGUE is very capable, very strong, and to boot, couple that Rogue with a +1 Heavy Crossbow/+1 Longbow and you got a very capable and strong ranged character, as well.

Just my take and two cents.

Last edited by bullse; 03/01/21 08:27 AM.
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To the question of how to do sneak attack well, here's something for consideration:

Sooner or later, Larian are going to have to handle Paladins using their divine smite. How that can or should be handled is a bigger overall question - but whatever the agreed upon solution is, that is the way sneak attack should also be handled.

For these kinds of choice-directed things, having them automatically apply (whether through a fiddly toggle or not) is not going to be an acceptable solution. (It may usually be okay to add sneak attack automatically when appropriate, but not always - it's a tactical choice. They'll need to give us that tactical choice for smites, so there's no reason to deny us it for sneak attack as well, at that stage)
Similarly, having it be a separate skill that you have to use independently of your other attacks is also not going to be an acceptable answer for something like that.

The main issue is how hands-off they've left the choice element of combat to be at the moment. We don't have choice over our reactions - we don't have most of our reactions at all, in fact. Abilities that we should be able to choose the application of, we can't. The 'toggles' only work in a very temporary kind of band-aid way, and are another way in which we are left fighting the UI to do what we want.

If I think I might fall, I have to cast feather fall in advance - and burn the spell slot that I might not end up needing; if I or an ally does fall I cannot react to cast it.
If I have hellish rebuke, I can certainly pre-cast it... but then it will trigger immediately on the first thing that hits me after that, and I have no say in the matter. I cannot rebuke the specific creature I want to, and no-one else, nor can I let it pass if I need my reaction for something else.

Smites and Sneak Attack are integrally about player choice, which the current design system takes away from us at every opportunity. We need that back before it can be done properly at all.

Last edited by Niara; 03/01/21 08:24 AM.
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@Niara

Completely agree - they need to give us more control over each decision point. Battle Master maneuvers are in the same boat. It seems like they've optimized everything to make quick decisions (presumably to speed up combat), but it means that we have lots of stupid choices made for us and then we just feel bad about it.

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+1 please auto apply sneak attack when possible instead of being a separate action
things like that should speed up the combat (Also thinking about double clicking dash) instead of the automated reactions. I can see automatic reactions can work for some reaction type but i agree with all of you saying some of the reactions definitely need the players choice when and how to be triggered to keep the combat tactical.

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Originally Posted by FireSnake
The sneak attack currently simply has to be selcted from your ablities on the right rather than being included into your normal attacks on the left of the tool bar, not to say that this is optimally solved but it actually makes sneak attack better as it allows you to ignore it's triggering conditions. Besides you get a free Two weapon fighting fighting style as Rogue which just means you get stuff from other classes as well (notice the absurd off hand dmg, yeah that's cuz your modifier gets into the dmg calculation which technically it wouldn't, without two weapon fighting) Not to mention Thief being able to use 2 bonus actions to stab people. To me Rogue felt very powerful. Thief atleast, Arcane trickster is weak in 5e too soooooo that's in line(also it's an issue with the limtied spells at the moment, no Shield in particular hurts Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster)


Arcane Trickster is one of the strongest 5e rouges (though missing any of its good features and spells in BG3) below list of the items that make them one of the best rouges in tabletop 5e.
1) Mage Hand with its improvements makes Arcane Trickster one of the best at disarming traps and other aspects of exploration with nearly no risk.
2) they get find familiar. This give them unrivaled ability for exploration and very easy access to advantage for both skill checks and attacks ( easy sneak attack access for melee in particular.
3) They get the shield spell in 5e giving them more defensive power than any other rouge
4) they get Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade on a class that wants to do single attacks each round. These spells make a big difference in overall damage output. It make Tricksters have one of the highest turn to turn damage of any rouge.
5) Vast utility with spells like disguise self, alter self, invisibility and more.

With regards to BG3 many of these benefits don't exist and many may not make it in the base game. The altered thief is definitely the stronger of the two currently in BG3 but isn't true in tabletop. And if they start to improve the arcane trickster with more of them above abilities, it can be the strongest rouge in BG3.

----
back to the main thread...

Rouges do good damage in 5e. When sneak attack is not bugged, they have one of the most consistent damage curves. Its not the best damage of 5e but its good and very consistent.
Sneak attack is simply very buggy in BG3 atm. It very painful that sneak attack isn't default applied to your attacks. Its not intuitive to select sneak attack as its own ability. 95%+ of the time, you want sneak attack to proc on your first attack. The default option should lend itself to the normal play and to habit. I am fine with a toggle or having a separate ability that doesn't do sneak attack (basically the opposite of the current method.)

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First off, a big +1 to all of you who want to see the rogue fixed and have kept the conversation going.

I find it disappointing that threads about the rogue class NOT living up to expectations haven’t garnered a whole lot of attention in the forums as much as other, say, more nuanced UI mechanics that have generated more conversation.

This is a class we’re intended to play with through the whole of EA content, and Larian kind of broke it. It’s an EA class that CLEARLY has issues that require both attention and fixing.

Someone else said it best: If anyone can rogue, why play a rogue? I’ll go further and say : Why even include the class? Why not make sneak attack a feat and put the nail in the coffin. Though I really want to play the rogue class to it’s full potential, I’d rather play any class other than rogue right now because those classes can do more, and still do rogue things, making the rogue meaningless.

You may hear the argument about rogues: “But... What about the damage they deal in this game? It’s crazy high!” Sure. But in my experience of playing this class at the table and in other video games, damage-dealing doesn’t define this class. Rogues have so many tools in their toolkits to allow for more immersive gameplay and utility than just “I hit things hard.”

Then comes the next argument: “But... you get more skills in this game than any other class? There’s your utility and immersion!” To which I say: So, what! In a party of four with a broad range of skills, anyone can have the skills of a rogue and, furthermore, utilize those skills - even thieves tools. The Rogue is supposed to be better at certain things, and the exclusion of Expertise at level 1 means nothing makes the rogue really unique. And, again... If you bring up sneak attack... See above.

I think we all agree that at Level 2, cunning action sucks because - with the exception of Dash - it belongs to everyone now. So, as a level 2 feature, getting BA Dash seems rather watered down when compared to things like Action Surge, Arcane Recovery, Fighting Styles, Hunters Mark, Invocations, and on and on... I could go on about why tanky, higher hit-point characters should not get Disengage as a bonus action, and take the effing opportunity attack instead (because melee!), but I think I’m preaching to the choir in this forum. So again, the rogue lacks uniqueness two levels in.

At level 3, it’s archetype time. While I can’t speak to the Thief class as it seems to function the way it should (correct me, all ye forum trolls if I’m wrong, and I shalt point ye to the nearest bridge to call thine home), I can however speak to the Arcane Trickster. I made a whole post in the forums about this specific Archetype and how it feels severely nerfed. You get two cantrips, not three... (Pardon me, but I need to fill up my swear jar again) and you don’t automatically get or have to take mage hand. But why would you when the legerdemain feature doesn’t allow you to steal and carry objects? I could do a whole post on Legerdemain alone. Like I said in my other post, Larian has taken a lot of the “Arcane” and “Trickster” out of the Arcane Trickster, much in the same way that they took the “rogue” out of the rogue. (Why they gotta hate? Did someone, like... steal their coin-purse like way back in the day? Or was it like a REALLY good rogue... who managed to steal Sven’s first suit of plate armor off his back.)

At any rate, I’m in agreement with all of you that this class is lacklustre. It’s a thoughtless implementation of a class in my opinion that I hope is just an Early Access thing. Rogues are good damage dealers - no doubt - but anyone who has played one could tell you that it’s their unique utility in and out of combat, coupled with sneak attack that defines them, and to me, the utility part is missing, or subtracted, or given to every other class to use.

So I’ll ask it again: Why include the class? If so much of what makes a rogue is yanked, then why not yank the rogue, Larian. Sneak attack? Make it a feat. You could do the right thing and fix it but here’s your easy way out. Just don’t put it in there and say: “Look we have a rogue you can play!”

Myself - and other fans of this game - we don’t want this, of course. But it doesn’t seem like Larian has addressed this, or responded to those who love this class about these issues.

Look, I tip my hat to Larian: on the world they have crafted and all their hard work thus far. It’s so great to play within this world and so many interesting approaches to problems. They’re a great company, and I’m thankful that they’re out there making great games. Thank you. I am entertained.

But they also took our money - and asked for our opinions and feedback - to make this a better game and we “players of rogues” have spoken.

So maybe address these and the other bothersome issues of this class (i.e. buttons for sneak attack instead of baking it into an attack that meets Sneak Attack conditions) before releasing other classes (Cough, cough, druid, cough, cough).

Understand that those who rogue don’t want to sneak attack their way through a game. They want to play through the game with options granted to them by their ability to truly be a rogue, which at this moment - and we can all agree - everyone else has, with the exception of sneak attack.

There. I’ve said my peace, as have many others on this topic. Is anyone listening? The proverbial ball is in your court, Larian. That is all.

Well, one more thing... What’s up with Tasha’s Hideous Laughter being Pact of the Old One warlock only?!

(Hear you go, swear jar, my old friend)

Last edited by Uglyfugger; 18/02/21 05:16 PM.
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Yup. Totally agree.

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Right?!

I think that this also speaks to a greater problem that is being addressed in other forums... 5e rules work for a reason: for balance. Maybe players feel things are broken because the makers of this game keep breaking the ruleset.

Entire classes like the rogue are left feeling flavourless because so many 5e rules have been chucked or rearranged or redistributed. The game world is fun, but the willy-nilly, piecemeal ruleset implementation is hurting classes and making them less fun to play, or irrelevant altogether.

If the rules ain’t broke, don’t mess with’em.

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