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That also doesn't change that people that like Baldur's Gate for the video games they are whatever the combat rules won't find a lot of BG in BG3.

Baldur's Gate fans are not only fan because BG use D&D. Many players that enjoy the video games didn't or won't ever play D&D.

Of course D&D is a part of the core... But it's still a part.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 14/10/20 03:41 PM.

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Originally Posted by Wrathbone

Part of the point I was trying to make earlier is that the inclusion - nay, prevalance - of OS things like surfaces means the 5E rules have had to be drastically changed in some ways, and I don't believe that's to the benefit of the game. If they insist on surfaces being part of the game, the surface mechanics should be changed to accommodate 5E instead, as this is a D&D game.


Most of the time when someone says "benefit" they mean balance and when they mean balance they mean to say it in a specific context (because 5e isn't balanced in a lot of ways and is in others). Internal consistency of a system matters more than accommodation, it being a D&D game is not as relevant.



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When I listed the "Larianisms" I did not mean that none of things EXISTED in D&D or in D&D video games before. Of course they did. All of them did. I used the terms "heavy emphasis" and "high prevalence" to mean that these things exist with much greater UBIQUITY (is that even a word?) than in an average D&D campaign or D&D video game. It's not that there's no fire arrows or fire surfaces or fire barrels or fights based around verticality, etc. in regular D&D. It's that those things are typically not completely freaking everywhere to a bonkers degree. It's the PREVALENCE that is the Larianism, the almost comical level of FOCUS on these things. And I'm not saying that any of those Larianisms are even BAD. I was just responding to the person who said we couldn't really define what's Larian-specific and what's regular ol' D&D. I think we can define it, and I've attempted to do so with my list. (Although I freely admit that I probably forgot a few things.)

Last edited by Firesnakearies; 14/10/20 03:53 PM.
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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
When I listed the "Larianisms" I did not mean that none of things EXISTED in D&D or in D&D video games before. Of course they did. All of them did. I used the terms "heavy emphasis" and "high prevalence" to mean that these things exist with much greater UBIQUITY (is that even a word?) than in an average D&D campaign or D&D video game. It's not that there's no fire arrows or fire surfaces or fire barrels or fights based around verticality, etc. in regular D&D. It's that those things are typically not completely freaking everywhere to a bonkers degree. It's the PREVALENCE that is the Larianism, the almost comical level of FOCUS on these things. And I'm not saying that any of those Larianisms are even BAD. I was just responding to the person who said we couldn't really define what's Larian-specific and what's regular ol' D&D. I think we can define it, and I've attempted to do so with my list. (Although I freely admit that I probably forgot a few things.)


And my point is that ubiquity and prevalence does not necessarily make an -ism. You have tried to define it, but not everyone will accept your definition of it and the same goes for what is D&D; some person here said that D&D is about rolling for stats rather than having only stat arrays available. Like I said, good luck.

The entire reason I bring any of this up is to say that it's on a spectrum and the problem with many of the critics of BG3 is that they refuse to acknowledge that it's a spectrum to begin with and when you question them you'll find that they're internally inconsistent. Not to mention the fact that this is a different medium to begin with and it's 2020.


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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
When I listed the "Larianisms" I did not mean that none of things EXISTED in D&D or in D&D video games before. Of course they did. All of them did. I used the terms "heavy emphasis" and "high prevalence" to mean that these things exist with much greater UBIQUITY (is that even a word?) than in an average D&D campaign or D&D video game. It's not that there's no fire arrows or fire surfaces or fire barrels or fights based around verticality, etc. in regular D&D. It's that those things are typically not completely freaking everywhere to a bonkers degree. It's the PREVALENCE that is the Larianism, the almost comical level of FOCUS on these things. And I'm not saying that any of those Larianisms are even BAD. I was just responding to the person who said we couldn't really define what's Larian-specific and what's regular ol' D&D. I think we can define it, and I've attempted to do so with my list. (Although I freely admit that I probably forgot a few things.)


It's also likely that you notice it more because you're looking for it. I have very limited experience with DOS/DOS 2. I have played them, but I don't have anything like the time in them that I had in BG/BG 2. So when I read your list, I see a lot of stuff that's been a trope since before Larian started making games.

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Of course, I don't expect everyone to accept my definitions. I'm just offering my take. And you're right, it definitely IS on a spectrum. So everyone's perspective on it is gonna vary. Some people think BG3 is Divinity with a sprinkling of D&D, and some think that it's D&D with a sprinkling of Divinity (and everywhere in between). I happen to be in the latter camp.

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I think I'm more of the "in between" right now. I decided to buy in looking to see if this would be something that could captivate me for a couple of years. EA certainly won't do it, once I finish the chapter, I'll be checking in weekly, I suppose, to see what kinds of things get changed, but full release will be what makes it or breaks it for me. So far, I'm having a lot of fun with it, some expected issues aside.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
Prior to Baldur's Gate, many games were made based on D&D, and most of them were VERY faithful adaptations of the 1st and 2nd edition rules. Including the 10+ Gold Box games and the two Dark Sun games, all of which hewed quite closely to the parent ruleset and gameplay style.

Then BioWare got their chance to make a D&D game. And they decided, based on their own personal opinions as video game designers, to make significant changes to the system because they felt that it would be more fun (or sell better, some of both probably) than keeping their game as tight to the 2e rules as the prior D&D titles. And now Larian is doing the exact same thing.

But on Reddit and on the Larian forums, we've got a lot of people pretending that Baldur's Gate 1+2 was some kind of deeply faithful adaptation, and Baldur's Gate 3 is a wild departure. I think people are kidding themselves.

Baldur's Gate took a game in which each character takes their turn individually, in order, and changed it into a wild melee where everyone acted at the exact same time. That is a HUGE change. The impact on how fights play out in such a system is quite significant, and they way it FEELS to play it is even more massive. The ability to pause and issue commands does not change the fact that any time you have it unpaused, everyone is acting simultaneously. That's the single biggest change to D&D in a video game of all time.

In addition to this, Baldur's Gate 1+2 changed the way a number of spells worked, to fit better with their new system. I can't tell you exactly how many, as I'm not prepared to comb through all the spell descriptions for an hour to gather that data. But it was a not insignificant number.


Eh, that's overstating the changes Bioware made to 2ed rules. There is a misapprehension that 1 and 2 were 'Real Time'. But the actual rules changes Bioware made were quite minor. 1) They replaced party initiative with character initiative. 2) They reduced the 60 second turn time to 6 seconds. So characters in those games are actually staggered on a delay ranging from 1/10 of a round to 1 full six-second round. They tuned movement rates so all characters could cross the width of the screen (at old school resolutions and aspects ratios) in 6 seconds.

It makes the game a lot more fluid, I agree, but it's not at all a huge departure from the core 2ed rules.


Last edited by Jayce; 14/10/20 05:00 PM.
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The turn based combat doesn't really bother me. What bothers me is that the entire system is a literal carbon copy of DOS2. The way you interact with objects, companions, traps, secret doors, etc. It's a complete departure from the isometric feel of BG1 - 2. Having said that, I didn't refund it via steam, in the hopes that it turns out good, in spite of this.

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Originally Posted by Jayce
but it's not at all a huge departure from the core 2ed rules.




Well I'll have to disagree. To me, it is a pretty huge departure. But everyone's perspective is different, and you're entitled to your own.

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Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
How come there were no such complaints when Bethesda made Fallout 3? It was made using the exact same engine as Oblivion, but it was universally a hit with little to no complaints about it being different to Fallout 1 or 2.

Maybe your memory has faded because it's been 12 years, but the nerd rage was just as bad when that game came out.

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That is a lot of words defending them just making DoS3.

Also they are spotty on being stupid goofy or actually following the rules, which just leaves it a mess

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Originally Posted by CamKitty
That is a lot of words defending them just making DoS3.




Welp, they didn't do that. So that's a small number of words used saying something inaccurate.

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for me, I'd much rather then hewed more closely to the actual P&P rules.

The BG games were good - they got me into D&D lol, and their storylines were great and kept me playing for years (a ritual of mine was to replay the trilogy at least once a year, usually over the summer). But learning what the actual game was like, was crazy, I remember then playing D&D3e before it properly came out and then NWN coming out too, and actually being annoyed at it's changes to the base rules too lol, I still loved NWN as well though, back in the day.

I'd really like to see BG3 stick closely to the actual rules though, because I think there is a real potential to it as something greater than "just" BG3 via the DM tools that it'll likely eventually get, if it has proper D&D rules, it could even become a platform people choose to use to run D&D campaigns, which in turn could lead to a vibrant modding community. The possibilities there feel endless.

Thing is, BG3 isn't BG3, its a game that happens to have Baldur's Gate (the city) in it, so far we've had no real implications of tangible proper links to the originals, so whilst I look forward to the story, it doesn't have the same vibes as a true sequel might. Who knows, maybe there will turn out to be a proper tie in to the originals down the line (and I don't mean just to a character like Minsc, but perhaps references to the Bhaalspawn saga etc - but then the issue is you dont import save games etc, so it wouldn't be mine anyway). So ultimately, all i can hope for with BG3, is a good D&D game that plays like D&D that happens to be set in one of my favourite fantasy settings. Take away the D&D element, or jumble it like it currently is, and it really doesn't feel like it was worth the hype based on what I've seen of the story during early access... which is a bit sad.

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Originally Posted by blindhamster

Thing is, BG3 isn't BG3, its a game that happens to have Baldur's Gate (the city) in it, so far we've had no real implications of tangible proper links to the originals, so whilst I look forward to the story, it doesn't have the same vibes as a true sequel might. Who knows, maybe there will turn out to be a proper tie in to the originals down the line (and I don't mean just to a character like Minsc, but perhaps references to the Bhaalspawn saga etc - but then the issue is you dont import save games etc, so it wouldn't be mine anyway). So ultimately, all i can hope for with BG3, is a good D&D game that plays like D&D that happens to be set in one of my favourite fantasy settings. Take away the D&D element, or jumble it like it currently is, and it really doesn't feel like it was worth the hype based on what I've seen of the story during early access... which is a bit sad.


+1

I'm rolling with a lot of the changes, and I'm keeping an open mind on the later story acts. It was interesting though watching Josh Sawyer's GDC debrief of Pillars of Eternity 1's development though.

You could see all the ways that they tried to evoke the original Infinity Engine games. Just look at the cursors, and UI icons (they apparently got accused of stealing those they were so close). Fans got upset that there weren't item sketches for rare weapons and loot, so they added those in during the expansion. It felt like it was made with love and nostalgia, while still not being afraid to do its own thing in terms of setting, technology, and class mechanics.

I don't know. I think Larian could have done more to evoke the atmosphere of the original games, while still implementing the mechanics they wanted to. But the music, the menus, the UI elements, a lot has been ported over from or inspired by DOS rather than BG.

I wouldn't give up on some level of Bhaalspawn story customisation though. KOTOR 2 let you decide KOTOR 1's protagonist gender and ending through dialogue. It was ham-fisted as hell, but, certain aspects of game design have come a long way since then, so I hold out hope!

Last edited by Kelarq; 14/10/20 10:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by blindhamster

I'd really like to see BG3 stick closely to the actual rules though, because I think there is a real potential to it as something greater than "just" BG3 via the DM tools that it'll likely eventually get, if it has proper D&D rules, it could even become a platform people choose to use to run D&D campaigns, which in turn could lead to a vibrant modding community. The possibilities there feel endless.



I would love this so much! I really hope this happens.

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BG3 is a departure from BG.

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Originally Posted by Zress
BG3 is a departure from BG.



Yes, as many sequels are from their predecessors. Especially when a very long time has passed between them.

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Who cares if it’s a departure from the originals - they are 20 odd years old and for their period they are classics and held as a pinnacle - for that time.

Some of you people need to let it go & try enjoying a new experience from one of today’s top rpg studios. Larian
Are watching & will make changes to produce the best version of their vision of a d&d game.

No before I get hit with the fanboy tag I’ve never played dos1 or dos2 - but I’m loving the game already & are hoping with a lot of feedback things like surfaces etc will get modified ...( I have played rpgs for many years now & early tabletop d&d through till about 3rd edition)

We are the beginning of a long journey - leave bg 1&2 in their place in history and look forward to an updated & ohhh gosh yes different .....yes I know many struggle with change ...version.

Just enjoy the fact it’s d&d and if it goes well more will follow in it’s footsteps...either that or try solaster crown of the magister...oh no wait ....that has 4 party members too which as we know is illegal.

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You are correct, Balder's Gate 1 & 2 departed from turn-based D&D (although not the first). It was however still D&D.

As others have pointed out, having surfaces is not D&D at all...it is in fact a DOS mechanic. This and many more DOS mechanics changes combat radically.
Radically being defined as: Most of the rules are based of 5e, but these DOS contaminations make combat feel up to 85% DOS at times. In DOS you combated surfaces with other elements,ect. Do I need a cleric for the create water spell..erm..let's call it what it is...It's the rain spell.

Then there is the fact that the range on all spells and arrows is cut to a fraction of what they should be.

I wouldn't complain if this was just a new game, I would just appreciate it and learn the new mechanics. This however is not a DOS title this is a long awaited D&D title...that just isn't D&D.

I keep vocalizing, hoping that the Larian team will remember that in the past they have believed something to work, only to have to change it and listen to the fans.

Sooner is better than latter cost wise.

To be clear mixing DOS rules with D&D rules does not work for BG3.

The game has a great story and vision for story telling (even if it is biased to the dark side so far).

It has great graphics but a crap camera setup.

Loose the DOS mechanics and fix the camera and it will be awesome!


Now I see a sky once and a while...please let me pan up and zoom into first person. Getting rid the ability to meta game (by scrolling all over the place).

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