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Maybe not fair to compare BG3 to BG2 since BG2 starts in the middle of the story. Maybe BG1 would be more appropriate.


And what do we have in Act 1 of BG1? Investigating an iron shortage. Kobold in a mine. Bandits. Some monsters. Some mysterious dreams. Fairly basic stuff and similar to what we have in BG3 Act 1.

Part of what made BG series great was building from that basic DnD starting adventure module in BG1 Act 1 to the super epic stuff in BG2/ToB.

Let's give it time. Right now we only have Act 1 to judge.

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I both agree and disagree. First off, Baldur's Gate started not in irenecus dungeon but in a kobold hunt in the neeshkal mines. It's important because this is a start of a new adventure and the stakes should reflect it, even if you have some more important things behind the scenes (same as in bg1! Replace mystery assassin with mystery tadpole and you can't ignore the parallels).

The issue is not with the story, world, or characters as far as I can tell. The issue is with how much Larian cares for it. I discussed it at length on this forum, and the more I discuss it the clearer it is to me, that Larian's problem with the story and lore is that they don't particularly care whether it all comes together. This is an issue above the pay grade of the writers. It seems like Larian's lead designers just don't care about how much of the story you get, and only care about allowing you to explore and experiment the game world. If you stumble upon the story it's fine, but if not it doesn't matter to them.

It's the way quests work, the way you can do whatever you want in whatever order you want. All of these things are not wrong per se, provided the developers cares enough about the story to fit it to these design philosophies


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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When I first played BG II a lot of the thematic story development went right over my head. The hints were indeed all there in the opening dungeon, but I was much more busy figuring out how to use my spells, scout areas ahead, and avoid goblin arrows. Only later did I piece it all together, and went "oh, now I get it ..." That is indeed how you use foreshadowing. Wonderful!

One theme that I did catch onto quickly, however, was the Tale of the Fateful Coin. Forgive me if I re-post some of this: It starts with Firebeard's book in Beregost, it underlies all the dream sequences in BG I, and it goes right up to the ending in Throne of Bhaal. That theme tied BG I & II together because it directly concerned the player character. I liked that quite a bit, and I hope I see something like it in BG III.

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Originally Posted by gish
Maybe not fair to compare BG3 to BG2 since BG2 starts in the middle of the story. Maybe BG1 would be more appropriate.


And what do we have in Act 1 of BG1? Investigating an iron shortage. Kobold in a mine. Bandits. Some monsters. Some mysterious dreams. Fairly basic stuff and similar to what we have in BG3 Act 1.

Part of what made BG series great was building from that basic DnD starting adventure module in BG1 Act 1 to the super epic stuff in BG2/ToB.

Let's give it time. Right now we only have Act 1 to judge.


Yet in this basic first act stuff we have a rich world history and atmosphere. Candlekeep (Candlekeep was a towered library-fortress that stood on a crag overlooking the Sea of Swords. ... Aside from the edicts dictated by the stronghold's Keepers throughout the years, Candlekeep had but one absolute rule: "Those who destroy knowledge, with ink, fire, or sword, are themselves destroyed...) , Beregost inn, the wild to get lost into, day/night cycles with weather added so much atmosphere...

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by robertthebard
So I'm going to play BG to Nashkell, and then write a review about how "incomplete" it feels. Maybe I should stop at the Friendly Arm Inn?

Please do. There are many, myself included, that would be more than happy to tear this apart at the seams and bury it permanently.

Originally Posted by robertthebard
What does "feel like FR" mean? Let's be clear here, I played all of BG, all of IWD, all of NWN, and all of NWN 2. I played the Neverwinter MMO. I also played DDO, but initially it had no FR content, that didn't come until much later. So when I sit down for a session here, what is it that I'm supposed to believe makes it FR?

I suggest you start here : https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Ca...mp;qid=1603203613&s=books&sr=1-2

Originally Posted by robertthebard
What we do have is an extraplanar creature using us as a means of reproduction. Hi tadpole. How similar is this to being the bhaalspawn? Ok, so the perceived end result is that we won't become a God. However, that doesn't remove the connotation that a creature from another plane of existence is using us to reproduce. The end result of Bhaal's plan was to be reborn, after all. I wonder how many table top sessions around the world have wound up with wilder story lines than even what we're going to get here? So what I see are a lot of subjective judgements based on one act of a game that's not even in true beta yet. This is about as close to alpha as you can get, and still release something. How much of what we're playing now is going to change once we get out of EA?

Become a God? How about not the spawn of a god, not involved in a 4d chess conspiracy by a God, not having people hunt you down to take your god powers for themselves, having your entire life and home destroyed by these said people. Why don't you talk about how the tadpoles are not working the way they are, the nautiloids are not working the way they are, the illithid are not working the way they are, the ullitharid are not working the way they are or the incredible suspension of disbelief you have to make for the excuse presented for this, or how the tadpoles are manifesting powers they shouldn't have, or how you should never have been able to survive this experience, or how the universe ignores the fact that you have a living tadpole in your brain that isn't killing you which would be the subject of instant desire for many major players including figures such as Vlaakith CLVII or the entirety of Thay?

Why don't we talk about Gale who is in love with Mystra or how any magician would be aware that in FR any mortal that Mystra considers worth trusting would be a Chosen of Mystra and that despite his obsession with her he is content to travel with an open Sharite(shadowheart) so shortly after the spellplague? I can go on if you want.
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Some obvious things that have already been pointed out:

How much reading are people doing? There's a lot of lore presented in books, and I have a backpack that is absolutely full of them. Some are just love letters, or other types of correspondence, but there are a lot of books that aren't story flagged, but do contain lore about both the current situation in the Realm, and FR in general. I'm starting to get a ME Andromeda pre-release vibe here, where "it's not Shepard, so it's not ME" was the prevalent argument. The old BSN had "Warden Wednesday" for both Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition, and those games were "not Dragon Age, because Warden". I have to wonder if "it's not FR, because no Bhaalspawn"?

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking here or how it's relevant so I'd like to ask you to rephrase it more eloquently.

So what you're saying is, for all the "it doesn't feel like the FR, there's an awful lot of FR here"? Because that's what I came away with. I guess I can take your route, and tear this whole notion of "Not feeling like the FR" apart at the seams? I mean, the first poster that quoted me left out the whole plotline of BG being all about how Sarevok was trying to "be the Highlander". That's what drives the entire story, he was wiping out Bhaalspawn everywhere he could find them, so that he could be the only one. I guess I have to take that into consideration, the lack of the ability to comprehend narrative, when I read a "review", something we all should do. My point about stopping at Nashkell, or the Friendly Arm is that I'd be taking the beginning of a game out of context from the rest, and making my conclusions based on that. I'm supposed to believe that someone has this magical, mystical comprehension of what it means to "feel like the FR" when they can't even pick up on simple subtext? I don't. What I read was a rage post about how "you're not allowed to call my views into question".

There are a lot of things "missing" from this game. Once again, some subtext(ish) type stuff: A lot of the game is missing. Hey, check it out, that clearly defines the subtext in what I said about a BG review, what a coincidence. Except it's really not. In fact, it was my whole point. How am I supposed to sit here and believe that it's my problem that I don't see your point, when something as simple as "We only have Act I, and it's in what amounts to an Alpha stage" flies right over your head? Sorry, that's not going to happen. Wait, no, I'm not sorry, that's just not going to happen. I'll do a "deep dive" into how much it's "The FR" when I've played the whole game, instead of Act I, with no context to what's driving the different factions, other than some surface level "we're here, and we're working against you/trying to capture you". You know, like writing a review about BG, but only playing to the Friendly Arm Inn?

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Originally Posted by Ral Karsus
First of all, I'm a fan of both Baldur's Gate and Divinity series and I was very excited about that Larian is the company that makes BG 3.

But, It's not BG 3. Not because of the mechanics, but soul. Let me explain this a bit.

This article consists of

intro: Forgotten Realms Mythos and Game Scenario
1. Story Telling/Scenario
2. Examples and Comparison between BG 2 and 3
3. Content

Before I start, I want to say BG 3 is really promising. And I wrote this because I got still hope that future content and Arcs, at least expansions might be more profound.

Intro: Forgotten Realms is a Mythos and that is the main thing

BG series are legend. Its because of story, profound psychoanalytical and ontological theme and most importantly, MYTHOS. Baldur's Gate series, and generally Forgotten realms lore is actually a myth and the primary function of a myth is to construct a reality scheme about the existence, universe, self, ego, reality, etc. For example, I remember myself thinking like "Ok, let me pass this umberhulks quickly with a cloudkill, then see what creature/phenomena will come afterwards!" So combat in BG series was even just an obstacle sometimes, not the main point of the game. As you know, old school RPG's was not about combat, but the profound fantastic experience, as we can experiencen a very "unreal" reality.

I manage a software company, so I am completely aware that on a project of this scale, It's too hard to see the big picture. I think you did a great job at game mechanics (It can be polish to be smoother, but still great!), story telling, cinematic experience but; what is the story behind the mechanics and story telling? It's a very regular scenario. Goblins threat druids, there are migrant problem, childs in danger and we got heroes. Oh, sure, we got strange things in brain so its complicated? I'm sorry but its not like that. I'm going to delve into this a bit with examples from BG 2.

BG 2 Exp 1: Rielev, Dryads, Bedroom of Ellesime, Dungeon: We start to know about Irenicus, our captor with Rielev. He "awarded" Rielev with an oath to make him immortal for his loyal service. And he "sustained" him. But in the end, he always experimented on different subjects, and he did not want to remember him. Why? Because he fears the truth, he cannot fulfill that wish in a meaningful way (Because he fears the possibility that he cant do it on himself too) so he forgot him. And a promise of immortality, sustained experience of self reduced Rielev in a shadow. Thats what İrenicus do to people. On the contrast, we learn that İrenicus lacks the "self" experience. He tries to creat it again and again (Dryads, aesthetic bedroom, memory of love). Thats how we start to know of our captor! And when we inspect our dungeon we got the impression that: "Oh ok, an advanced mage is trying to solve mysterios about Ego, Life, Death, Essense, and he experimented on things we cannot grasp of. We are very far of understanding our captor". İn dialogue of Imoen and Irenicus, its stressed again: "Torture? sily girl, you just dont understand what am i doing, do you?"

BG 2 Exp 2: Dreams, Psychoanalytic approach, emphasis on experience: I do now want to write an article so long, so i'll try to make it short. Remember the dream İrenicus started with "Life is strength". He tackled the subjects: Life, Pragmatism, Teleology, Power, existence, choice in mere 1.5 minutes. So if your divine self is your Id, murder (in a freudian sense) if you let it consume you to make you immortal (By making you effecting everything, thus make you infinite) is it worth losing your ego? Or what will you become then? The game asks you this questions. What are you? What make you, you? What are you working for, really? The great part is, the game uses and alternate reality, where people like İrenicus can make experiments on the fabric of reality and game tries to drag you into that, different multiverse, reality.

Divinity 2, BG 3: Oh man, I played many of the combats on divinity again and again. It was so fun, profound tactical experience and many things to do. But when we delve about philosophy, reality? It is just flavor. Good flavor i suppose, for it did not disturb me. But it was not Faerun. That world is CONSTRUCTED FOR THE GAME. BUT BG 2 IS CONSTRUCTED FOR US TO EXPERİENCE THE FORGOTTEN REALMS AND ITS MYTHOS. Because the reality in forgotten realms is different from our daily life. Where our daily life existantial problems and ontological things are just philosophy, in Faerun, its a reality in a mythological sense.

And that is the i think, most important part. If you inspect the phenomena in BG 2: its a burst of content THAT IS FOCUSED ON PROFOUND LORE EXPERIENCE. NOT FLAVOR. What i meant is: In BG 3 there is stereotypical hero advanture of any regular game. But, characters and monster are from DND universe. And thats it. I cannot experience what Silvanus is. What he represents (We did in BG, we UNDERSTOOD what Amaunator is, what is the importance of life, its contrast to "shadow begins, what is the function of Helm and it represents by keeping chaos, madness and evil at bay, we saw a cult of mass hysteria (Cult of the unseeing eye) started by a creature from a "crazed" reality (far realms). ) BG 2 was bursting with Forgotten realms lore and phenomena. Instead, we got a statue of an animal, and if we insert the correct rune, gate opens? Man, come on! Is this shooter FPS with "open the red gate with red card" concept? Think about the mad mage at watchers keep, liches that even forgotten theirselves, planar prison, PERSONALITY of demons, contrast of many different cultures. I EXPERİENCED A DIFFERENT REALITY, FAERUN PROFOUNDLY, in BG 2. But BG 3 is a 5e DND game with fine combat mechanics, also got forgotten realms flavor, its just flavor and monster types (Can you tell me what would be different if there were no elves, goblins, druids, in the game but just bad guys, good guys, mobs? Answer is: nothing)

I mean, BG 2 opens with prophecies, philosophy... Where are these things? I repeat, main thing in Forgotten realms is not the mechanics. We played different tabletop rules as community always, but main focus on the Fantasy roleplay, dont forget that please.


You might think that "Ok, we know these stuff but that would make the scenario really complex and we need to sell it to average players". But then why is this game BG 3? People that loved and played BG 2 is generally RPG players who adores profound RP experience. Your storytelling is the BEST! But story and itself is too weak.

Good thing is, mechanis is hard to change, content is not! So i still got hope!


Actually, it's the opposite. mechanics are easy to change, when your taking reference on an existing model. Its merely changing the code, content is long and hard to produce.

You could have summed up your post in '' I don't like the story of Baldurs gate3 , please make it more like baldurs gate 2'' . and ''Make the narration better''.


Not every stories are alike. You don't need a story similar to BG2 to make it work. But I do agree that I'd like a bit more meaning and symbolism in the whole product, and less ''everyday'' feeling.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard

So what you're saying is, for all the "it doesn't feel like the FR, there's an awful lot of FR here"?

I used examples from the Game about how things from FR that are implemented(Tadpoles, Nautiloids, Illithid, Ullitharid, Mystra etc) where not implemented correctly or how they are represented in FR. This means that they are FR intellectual property missing source material or lore and in most cases having their source material or lore altered without explanation to fit a plot point that also had to have the source material or lore altered in order for it to be even remotely believable or even possible in universe. I'm not sure how you misconstrued this but then again I have seen you endorsing save scumming in another thread so I'm not surprised.

Originally Posted by robertthebard

Because that's what I came away with.

That is a you problem and I am not here to teach people reading comprehension.

Originally Posted by robertthebard

I guess I can take your route, and tear this whole notion of "Not feeling like the FR" apart at the seams? I mean, the first poster that quoted me left out the whole plotline of BG being all about how Sarevok was trying to "be the Highlander". That's what drives the entire story, he was wiping out Bhaalspawn everywhere he could find them, so that he could be the only one.

Confirmed for not playing the game.

Originally Posted by robertthebard

I guess I have to take that into consideration, the lack of the ability to comprehend narrative, when I read a "review", something we all should do. My point about stopping at Nashkell, or the Friendly Arm is that I'd be taking the beginning of a game out of context from the rest, and making my conclusions based on that. I'm supposed to believe that someone has this magical, mystical comprehension of what it means to "feel like the FR" when they can't even pick up on simple subtext? I don't. What I read was a rage post about how "you're not allowed to call my views into question".

I gave you several examples of things that cannot be changed by full release without Larian rewriting the main story arc from scratch that deviate from FRCS/D&D lore and detract from the feel/aesthetic. Your point has already been invalidated.

Originally Posted by robertthebard

There are a lot of things "missing" from this game. Once again, some subtext(ish) type stuff: A lot of the game is missing. Hey, check it out, that clearly defines the subtext in what I said about a BG review, what a coincidence. Except it's really not. In fact, it was my whole point. How am I supposed to sit here and believe that it's my problem that I don't see your point, when something as simple as "We only have Act I, and it's in what amounts to an Alpha stage" flies right over your head? Sorry, that's not going to happen. Wait, no, I'm not sorry, that's just not going to happen. I'll do a "deep dive" into how much it's "The FR" when I've played the whole game, instead of Act I, with no context to what's driving the different factions, other than some surface level "we're here, and we're working against you/trying to capture you". You know, like writing a review about BG, but only playing to the Friendly Arm Inn?

Again, you are quick to throw shade about comprehension but did you even read what I wrote? It's not just about stuff missing, it's about how lore and source material has actively been changed to facilitate their narrative and story. This only needs to happen because of the specific choice they made and there are many ways that they could have used source material and lore to explain this without having to alter it or ignore it not to mention that THEY CHOSE A VERY BAD STARTING POINTS FOR NO REASON THAT REQUIRES THEM TO ALTER THE SOURCE MATERIAL.

Please explain to me how full release will fix any of those issues I pointed out to you before. Please explain to me how Gale can be in love with mystra but not know who the chosen of mystra are or why he is okay travelling with a Sharite so close after the spell plague. Please explain to me how full release will change this? I am going to assume you have no idea what I mean by the spellplague of why someone that loves mystra would hate the sharites so please read this : https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Spellplague
I am also going to assume you don't know this so BG3 is set 1492DR.



Last edited by Argonaut; 20/10/20 03:42 PM.

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by robertthebard

So what you're saying is, for all the "it doesn't feel like the FR, there's an awful lot of FR here"?

I used examples from the Game about how things from FR that are implemented(Tadpoles, Nautiloids, Illithid, Ullitharid, Mystra etc) where not implemented correctly or how they are represented in FR. This means that they are FR intellectual property missing source material or lore and in most cases having their source material or lore altered without explanation to fit a plot point that also had to have the source material or lore altered in order for it to be even remotely believable or even possible in universe. I'm not sure how you misconstrued this but then again I have seen you endorsing save scumming in another thread so I'm not surprised.

Originally Posted by robertthebard

Because that's what I came away with.

That is a you problem and I am not here to teach people reading comprehension.

Originally Posted by robertthebard

I guess I can take your route, and tear this whole notion of "Not feeling like the FR" apart at the seams? I mean, the first poster that quoted me left out the whole plotline of BG being all about how Sarevok was trying to "be the Highlander". That's what drives the entire story, he was wiping out Bhaalspawn everywhere he could find them, so that he could be the only one.

Confirmed for not playing the game.

Originally Posted by robertthebard

I guess I have to take that into consideration, the lack of the ability to comprehend narrative, when I read a "review", something we all should do. My point about stopping at Nashkell, or the Friendly Arm is that I'd be taking the beginning of a game out of context from the rest, and making my conclusions based on that. I'm supposed to believe that someone has this magical, mystical comprehension of what it means to "feel like the FR" when they can't even pick up on simple subtext? I don't. What I read was a rage post about how "you're not allowed to call my views into question".

I gave you several examples of things that cannot be changed by full release without Larian rewriting the main story arc from scratch that deviate from FRCS/D&D lore and detract from the feel/aesthetic. Your point has already been invalidated.

Originally Posted by robertthebard

There are a lot of things "missing" from this game. Once again, some subtext(ish) type stuff: A lot of the game is missing. Hey, check it out, that clearly defines the subtext in what I said about a BG review, what a coincidence. Except it's really not. In fact, it was my whole point. How am I supposed to sit here and believe that it's my problem that I don't see your point, when something as simple as "We only have Act I, and it's in what amounts to an Alpha stage" flies right over your head? Sorry, that's not going to happen. Wait, no, I'm not sorry, that's just not going to happen. I'll do a "deep dive" into how much it's "The FR" when I've played the whole game, instead of Act I, with no context to what's driving the different factions, other than some surface level "we're here, and we're working against you/trying to capture you". You know, like writing a review about BG, but only playing to the Friendly Arm Inn?

Again, you are quick to throw shade about comprehension but did you even read what I wrote? It's not just about stuff missing, it's about how lore and source material has actively been changed to facilitate their narrative and story. This only needs to happen because of the specific choice they made and there are many ways that they could have used source material and lore to explain this without having to alter it or ignore it not to mention that THEY CHOSE A VERY BAD STARTING POINTS FOR NO REASON THAT REQUIRES THEM TO ALTER THE SOURCE MATERIAL.

Please explain to me how full release will fix any of those issues I pointed out to you before. Please explain to me how Gale can be in love with mystra but not know who the chosen of mystra are or why he is okay travelling with a Sharite so close after the spell plague. Please explain to me how full release will change this? I am going to assume you have no idea what I mean by the spellplague of why someone that loves mystra would hate the sharites so please read this : https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Spellplague
I am also going to assume you don't know this so BG3 is set 1492DR.



I really stopped reading at "Confirmed for not playing the game".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYoRmGHIxA4&ab_channel=Joseph965

That's the opening cinematic for Baldur's Gate. What is depicted there? Sarevok, killing a Bhaalspawn. What is it that forces you to leave Candlekeep? Gorion gets word of what's happening, and knows it's time to get out, a bit late, however, yes?

"Hand over your ward". Why? Because you're a Bhaalspawn, and he's going to end you. So unless you meant that you didn't play the game, maybe learn a bit more about being able to follow a narrative, and pick up on subtext before you try to educate someone else?

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Originally Posted by Argonaut

Become a God? How about not the spawn of a god, not involved in a 4d chess conspiracy by a God, not having people hunt you down to take your god powers for themselves, having your entire life and home destroyed by these said people. Why don't you talk about how the tadpoles are not working the way they are, the nautiloids are not working the way they are, the illithid are not working the way they are, the ullitharid are not working the way they are or the incredible suspension of disbelief you have to make for the excuse presented for this, or how the tadpoles are manifesting powers they shouldn't have, or how you should never have been able to survive this experience, or how the universe ignores the fact that you have a living tadpole in your brain that isn't killing you which would be the subject of instant desire for many major players including figures such as Vlaakith CLVII or the entirety of Thay?


1) People are hunting you down. You meet some of them.
2) The universe doesn’t ignore any of this. Characters explicitly remark how your tadpoles aren’t working as they should and have been tampered with. The mystery of who did this and why is the game’s story.
3) The tadpole in your head would be an intense desire to many powerful factions in Faerun, but it literally just happened.

I’m sorry, but your post is largely gibberish.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by robertthebard

So what you're saying is, for all the "it doesn't feel like the FR, there's an awful lot of FR here"?

I used examples from the Game about how things from FR that are implemented(Tadpoles, Nautiloids, Illithid, Ullitharid, Mystra etc) where not implemented correctly or how they are represented in FR. This means that they are FR intellectual property missing source material or lore and in most cases having their source material or lore altered without explanation to fit a plot point that also had to have the source material or lore altered in order for it to be even remotely believable or even possible in universe. I'm not sure how you misconstrued this but then again I have seen you endorsing save scumming in another thread so I'm not surprised.

Originally Posted by robertthebard

Because that's what I came away with.

That is a you problem and I am not here to teach people reading comprehension.

Originally Posted by robertthebard

I guess I can take your route, and tear this whole notion of "Not feeling like the FR" apart at the seams? I mean, the first poster that quoted me left out the whole plotline of BG being all about how Sarevok was trying to "be the Highlander". That's what drives the entire story, he was wiping out Bhaalspawn everywhere he could find them, so that he could be the only one.

Confirmed for not playing the game.

Originally Posted by robertthebard

I guess I have to take that into consideration, the lack of the ability to comprehend narrative, when I read a "review", something we all should do. My point about stopping at Nashkell, or the Friendly Arm is that I'd be taking the beginning of a game out of context from the rest, and making my conclusions based on that. I'm supposed to believe that someone has this magical, mystical comprehension of what it means to "feel like the FR" when they can't even pick up on simple subtext? I don't. What I read was a rage post about how "you're not allowed to call my views into question".

I gave you several examples of things that cannot be changed by full release without Larian rewriting the main story arc from scratch that deviate from FRCS/D&D lore and detract from the feel/aesthetic. Your point has already been invalidated.

Originally Posted by robertthebard

There are a lot of things "missing" from this game. Once again, some subtext(ish) type stuff: A lot of the game is missing. Hey, check it out, that clearly defines the subtext in what I said about a BG review, what a coincidence. Except it's really not. In fact, it was my whole point. How am I supposed to sit here and believe that it's my problem that I don't see your point, when something as simple as "We only have Act I, and it's in what amounts to an Alpha stage" flies right over your head? Sorry, that's not going to happen. Wait, no, I'm not sorry, that's just not going to happen. I'll do a "deep dive" into how much it's "The FR" when I've played the whole game, instead of Act I, with no context to what's driving the different factions, other than some surface level "we're here, and we're working against you/trying to capture you". You know, like writing a review about BG, but only playing to the Friendly Arm Inn?

Again, you are quick to throw shade about comprehension but did you even read what I wrote? It's not just about stuff missing, it's about how lore and source material has actively been changed to facilitate their narrative and story. This only needs to happen because of the specific choice they made and there are many ways that they could have used source material and lore to explain this without having to alter it or ignore it not to mention that THEY CHOSE A VERY BAD STARTING POINTS FOR NO REASON THAT REQUIRES THEM TO ALTER THE SOURCE MATERIAL.

Please explain to me how full release will fix any of those issues I pointed out to you before. Please explain to me how Gale can be in love with mystra but not know who the chosen of mystra are or why he is okay travelling with a Sharite so close after the spell plague. Please explain to me how full release will change this? I am going to assume you have no idea what I mean by the spellplague of why someone that loves mystra would hate the sharites so please read this : https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Spellplague
I am also going to assume you don't know this so BG3 is set 1492DR.



I really stopped reading at "Confirmed for not playing the game".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYoRmGHIxA4&ab_channel=Joseph965

That's the opening cinematic for Baldur's Gate. What is depicted there? Sarevok, killing a Bhaalspawn. What is it that forces you to leave Candlekeep? Gorion gets word of what's happening, and knows it's time to get out, a bit late, however, yes?

"Hand over your ward". Why? Because you're a Bhaalspawn, and he's going to end you. So unless you meant that you didn't play the game, maybe learn a bit more about being able to follow a narrative, and pick up on subtext before you try to educate someone else?

I know you think you are clever, but you're going to have to actually put something behind your argument and debate like an adult if you want to be taken seriously. Address at least one of the criticisms or points I've brought up and I'll explain to you in great detail why you are wrong.


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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Argonaut

Become a God? How about not the spawn of a god, not involved in a 4d chess conspiracy by a God, not having people hunt you down to take your god powers for themselves, having your entire life and home destroyed by these said people. Why don't you talk about how the tadpoles are not working the way they are, the nautiloids are not working the way they are, the illithid are not working the way they are, the ullitharid are not working the way they are or the incredible suspension of disbelief you have to make for the excuse presented for this, or how the tadpoles are manifesting powers they shouldn't have, or how you should never have been able to survive this experience, or how the universe ignores the fact that you have a living tadpole in your brain that isn't killing you which would be the subject of instant desire for many major players including figures such as Vlaakith CLVII or the entirety of Thay?


1) People are hunting you down. You meet some of them.
2) The universe doesn’t infinite of this. Characters explicitly remark how your tadpoles aren’t working as they should and have been tampered with. The mystery of who did this and why is the game’s story.
3) The tadpole in your head would be an intense desire to many powerful factions in Faerun, but it literally just happened.

I’m sorry, but your post is largely gibberish.

1) Vlaakith CLVIII and the red wizards of thay are not people. If you know nothing about the setting don't pretend otherwise.
2) And the nautiloid, illithid and ullitharid? Or in your infinite wisdom did you miss how I also said that the reason the game is giving you also detracts from the source material thereby detracting from the feel of FR?
3) Again, if you know so little about the source material don't pretend to otherwise.

I'm sorry, but your posts is largely ignorance.


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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Argonaut

Become a God? How about not the spawn of a god, not involved in a 4d chess conspiracy by a God, not having people hunt you down to take your god powers for themselves, having your entire life and home destroyed by these said people. Why don't you talk about how the tadpoles are not working the way they are, the nautiloids are not working the way they are, the illithid are not working the way they are, the ullitharid are not working the way they are or the incredible suspension of disbelief you have to make for the excuse presented for this, or how the tadpoles are manifesting powers they shouldn't have, or how you should never have been able to survive this experience, or how the universe ignores the fact that you have a living tadpole in your brain that isn't killing you which would be the subject of instant desire for many major players including figures such as Vlaakith CLVII or the entirety of Thay?


1) People are hunting you down. You meet some of them.
2) The universe doesn’t infinite of this. Characters explicitly remark how your tadpoles aren’t working as they should and have been tampered with. The mystery of who did this and why is the game’s story.
3) The tadpole in your head would be an intense desire to many powerful factions in Faerun, but it literally just happened.

I’m sorry, but your post is largely gibberish.

1) Vlaakith CLVIII and the red wizards of thay are not people. If you know nothing about the setting don't pretend otherwise.
2) And the nautiloid, illithid and ullitharid? Or in your infinite wisdom did you miss how I also said that the reason the game is giving you also detracts from the source material thereby detracting from the feel of FR?
3) Again, if you know so little about the source material don't pretend to otherwise.

I'm sorry, but your posts is largely ignorance.


😂😂😂😂

1. I never said that Vlaakith and the Red Wizards of Thay are people.

You said: “not having people hunt you down to take your god powers for themselves.”

I just pointed out that there are people hunting you down.

2. Auto-correct botched a sentence which I corrected after you quoted me. I said none of this is being ignored. These discrepancies are mysteries. We don’t know the reasons yet, so we don’t know if they detract from the source material. The story was written in collaboration with WotC. They have approved everything to make sure it fits the lore.

3. Why are you like this? Who hurt you? 😂

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by robertthebard

I really stopped reading at "Confirmed for not playing the game".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYoRmGHIxA4&ab_channel=Joseph965

That's the opening cinematic for Baldur's Gate. What is depicted there? Sarevok, killing a Bhaalspawn. What is it that forces you to leave Candlekeep? Gorion gets word of what's happening, and knows it's time to get out, a bit late, however, yes?

"Hand over your ward". Why? Because you're a Bhaalspawn, and he's going to end you. So unless you meant that you didn't play the game, maybe learn a bit more about being able to follow a narrative, and pick up on subtext before you try to educate someone else?

I know you think you are clever, but you're going to have to actually put something behind your argument and debate like an adult if you want to be taken seriously. Address at least one of the criticisms or points I've brought up and I'll explain to you in great detail why you are wrong.

Why would I waste my time doing that, it's not like there's another adult involved in this conversation. I'm going to continue to address you the same way I would my 10 year old granddaughter, because that's who you most remind me of.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke

1. I never said that Vlaakith and the Red Wizards of Thay are people.

And clearly missed the point that the significance of characters like this is how incredibly powerful they are or for example how Vlaakith is the queen of the gith and has a psionic link to all of them and would immediately know about the existence of Lae.

Originally Posted by Warlocke
You said: “not having people hunt you down to take your god powers for themselves.
I just pointed out that there are people hunting you down.”

Oh dear you should really read more often. This was in response to someone comparing the bhaalspawn powers to the tadpole. You may notice how when I addressed this point in the context of BG3 I said, and I quote myself here, "major players including figures such as Vlaakith CLVIII or the entirety of thay". Are you aware of what Thay is?



Originally Posted by Warlocke
2. Auto-correct botched a sentence which I corrected after you quoted me. I said none of this is being ignored. These discrepancies are mysteries. We don’t know the reasons yet, so we don’t know if they detract from the source material. The story was written in collaboration with WotC. They have approved everything to make sure it fits the lore.

Again, you should read more often. Not only does your correction not account for any of this but it does not account for the multiple alterations or ommissions to the source material which was the crux of my point. I would suggest reading more slowly.

Originally Posted by Warlocke
3. Why are you like this? Who hurt you? 😂

Don't start nothing won't be nothing. Don't play innocent after looking for trouble, otherwise I'll have to start asking questions about your age and if your parents would approve of the content of this board.

Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by robertthebard

I really stopped reading at "Confirmed for not playing the game".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYoRmGHIxA4&ab_channel=Joseph965

That's the opening cinematic for Baldur's Gate. What is depicted there? Sarevok, killing a Bhaalspawn. What is it that forces you to leave Candlekeep? Gorion gets word of what's happening, and knows it's time to get out, a bit late, however, yes?

"Hand over your ward". Why? Because you're a Bhaalspawn, and he's going to end you. So unless you meant that you didn't play the game, maybe learn a bit more about being able to follow a narrative, and pick up on subtext before you try to educate someone else?

I know you think you are clever, but you're going to have to actually put something behind your argument and debate like an adult if you want to be taken seriously. Address at least one of the criticisms or points I've brought up and I'll explain to you in great detail why you are wrong.

Why would I waste my time doing that, it's not like there's another adult involved in this conversation. I'm going to continue to address you the same way I would my 10 year old granddaughter, because that's who you most remind me of.

No worries kid, you keep savescumming an RPG and running away form having to put your money where your mouth is at and I'll just go back to having discourse with adults.

Last edited by Argonaut; 20/10/20 04:43 PM.

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I feel bad for you. Good luck to you.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
I feel bad for you. Good luck to you.

Bye bye, next time don't come with an attitude if your skin is paper thin.


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Originally Posted by Argonaut
Originally Posted by robertthebard


Why would I waste my time doing that, it's not like there's another adult involved in this conversation. I'm going to continue to address you the same way I would my 10 year old granddaughter, because that's who you most remind me of.

No worries kid, you keep savescumming an RPG and running away form having to put your money where your mouth is at and I'll just go back to having discourse with adults.

I'm just going to run with the context provided here. You didn't know what Baldur's Gate was about, didn't understand the overarching story line, and yet, claimed that I hadn't played the game. When I demonstrated your lack of knowledge, suddenly I'm the one that has issues? I do have an issue. it's an issue I take. I take issue with someone that is totally uninformed trying to educate me on storylines. You see, the problem with your previous post here is that I provided video evidence of what I was claiming. Video that's been available for a very long time. So far, all you've provided is a rant that reminds me of my granddaughter when she doesn't get a toy she wants. I take issue with someone that can't understand a straightforward narrative, with a whole game to base it on, trying to make claims about something else that requires more nuance than they're capable of understanding. You think you're counting coup, with all the insults and slights. I find it hilarious, in context with the dialog. You see yourself as some kind of hero, and I see someone that's struggling to keep up with the actual conversation.

Last edited by robertthebard; 20/10/20 05:02 PM.
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[/quote]
Why would I waste my time doing that, it's not like there's another adult involved in this conversation. I'm going to continue to address you the same way I would my 10 year old granddaughter, because that's who you most remind me of.[/quote]
No worries kid, you keep savescumming an RPG and running away form having to put your money where your mouth is at and I'll just go back to having discourse with adults.
[/quote]

First off, anyone that choses to save scum or play any way other than you deem appropriate does not invalidate arguments. Saying so absolutely really invalidates YOUR arguments. IE you should avoid doing that, it makes you look bad.

Second, this is an incomplete product with many aspects missing in it's current state. There is a chance much of it will remain as it currently is, but that is not certain.

And lastly, Wizard of the Coast is working closely with Larian to make this game. Setting, story and continuity it is ALL ran by checked and approved by Mike Mearls current Creative Director of Dungeons & Dragons at Wizards of the Coast. This would make any story elements canon, and if it's canon then you would be amiss stating source material changes Larian is making is wrong because WoTC are the ones approving it.

Please see link for source of collaboration claims: https://fextralife.com/baldurs-gate-3-interview-with-larian-and-wizards-of-the-coast/
There are other sources for this collaboration claim, but this is easier to get context from actual verbal communication.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard

I'm just going to run with the context provided here. You didn't know what Baldur's Gate was about, didn't understand the overarching story line, and yet, claimed that I hadn't played the game. When I demonstrated your lack of knowledge, suddenly I'm the one that has issues?

No I told you you didn't play the game because you made the claim that the plot line of BG1 was all about sarevok trying to be the highlander which is reductive reasoning at best and also incorrect. One of the plot points of the game and perhaps the most important pivotal moment would be Sarevok's attack on candlekeep. The plotline follows the events of the time of troubles and the prophecy of Alaundo.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baldur%27s_Gate_(game)#:~:text=Baldur's%20Gate%20is%20a%20computer,in%201998%20by%20Interplay%20Entertainment.&text=The%20plot%20of%20Baldur's%20Gate,of%20the%20Time%20of%20Troubles.
"The plot of Baldur's Gate revolves around the main character, Gorion's Ward, and deals with the politics of the city of Baldur's Gate, as well as the aftermath of the Time of Troubles."


Originally Posted by robertthebard
I do have an issue. it's an issue I take. I take issue with someone that is totally uninformed trying to educate me on storylines.

Really? Because you don't know the difference between a plot line and a plot point and are presenting the inciting incident of the story as the main plot line.

Originally Posted by robertthebard
You see, the problem with your previous post here is that I provided video evidence of what I was claiming.

You provided video evidence around the inciting incident that kickstarts the main characters adventure. This is not the plot line but a plot point.

Originally Posted by robertthebard
Video that's been available for a very long time. So far, all you've provided is a rant that reminds me of my granddaughter when she doesn't get a toy she wants. I take issue with someone that can't understand a straightforward narrative, with a whole game to base it on, trying to make claims about something else that requires more nuance than they're capable of understanding. You think you're counting coup, with all the insults and slights. I find it hilarious, in context with the dialog. You see yourself as some kind of hero, and I see someone that's struggling to keep up with the actual conversation.

You were the one that began being derogatory so I think that accusation suits you better. Furthermore, you are guilty of cherrypicking your arguments up to this point as you have yet to address ANY of the other points I have brought up or the omission and alterations of source material in the examples I provided which where the crux of my original argument and fall in line with the OP's argument.
You are guilty of reduction ad absurdum, arguing from ignorance, cherry-picking, conflation, misrepresentation and argument from ignorance as well as a few more.

I am also still waiting for the video you said you would make.

Originally Posted by phoots
First off, anyone that choses to save scum or play any way other than you deem appropriate does not invalidate arguments. Saying so absolutely really invalidates YOUR arguments. IE you should avoid doing that, it makes you look bad.

Oh I'm just having some fun but if you would like I could return the attacks against my character with similar sentiments.

Originally Posted by phoots
Second, this is an incomplete product with many aspects missing in it's current state. There is a chance much of it will remain as it currently is, but that is not certain.

I listed multiple examples of things that cannot be changes in EA without rewriting the starting points, meaning that if they are not changed now they will not be magically changed by a full release. You are welcome to go back into the thread and challenge these arguments but so far everyone glosses over them and pretends not to see them because the simple truth is that the EA argument falls flat in light of them and no one wants to walk face first into a wall like that after making the claim.

Last edited by Argonaut; 20/10/20 05:33 PM.

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Actually Savarok trying to be the Highlander sounds about right. It's actually a very cool way to think about it.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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