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Originally Posted by Sozz
EA numbers aren't indicative of much, we're supposed to be stress testing everything given us. The real question is how many people did it on their first run, with the understanding that not many people replay games, even RPGs.

Oh, in that case, I'm sure that 80-90% of players will pass the route with Minthara in the first or second or third playthrough, and this will make the game replayable.

Example - Fable - the Lost Chapters
What's the difference who did what in 1 playthrough, absolutely EVERY player played both good and evil

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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Sozz
EA numbers aren't indicative of much, we're supposed to be stress testing everything given us. The real question is how many people did it on their first run, with the understanding that not many people replay games, even RPGs.

Oh, in that case, I'm sure that 80-90% of players will pass the route with Minthara in the first or second or third playthrough, and this will make the game replayable.

Example - Fable - the Lost Chapters
What's the difference who did what in 1 playthrough, absolutely EVERY player played both good and evil
To be clear the question isn't if there will be something, they've already shown us that there will be, it's how well it will be done and to what extent, considering how few people will ever see it in the end. If 80%-90% of people pass it by in their first, and only 20% of people play the game more than once...you see what I'm getting at.

As it stand, I wouldn't be surprised if Minthara being alive at the end of the grove conflict means little more than having an ally at Moonrise Towers who can easily exit the plot once our quest there is over.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
This is a large part of the reservations I have about whether or not Minthara will be a bigger player in the story, the hoops you have to jump through to even have her be alive at the end of Act 1 are significant.

You have to both choose the path of most resistance in siding with the goblins, you have to not rebuff her advances, then after that you have to succeed one or two persuasion rolls in order for her to not stab you in the back after.
In a list of characters that players a likely to never have more than one dialogue with, expecting Minthara to get a really fleshed out role in the story probably ranks as low as a Kisame Hoshigaki gaiden.

The thing is, that the persuasion roll decided to pass the whole sequence with non-lethal result for Minthara is laughably easy (DC of 1 IIRC) if you treat her well. In future, we will have also options to have basically guaranteed wins on DC rolls in dialogues (or less rng/static persuasion etc.), there was article about this on one of gaming news sites. Larian knows that it can randomly lock people out of playthrough option and they will provide an option for those who do not want to reload 20 times to get the desired dialogue line. I can post source here if you are interested.
Also;

In the end of act 1 Narrator says that "you've gained an ally and lover - cultist Minthara".
If you loot Minthara, she loses her equipment and you can see it. That means that she is coded like a companion.
Game files, IIRC reference a drow companion. I can find you the source on steam discussions if you want.

She plays pretty significtant role in the "evil side" already. There is huge possiblity of the whole evil route being altered as Larian has acknowledged that they need rework and more options.

I'm pretty sure that neither her nor Halsin will need to die, even if we choose the opposite sides (knockout comes to the mind, or a surrender cutscene). Reddit was literally full of complaints about this and for a good reason. Those are 2 fan favourites, when it comes to NPCs and "rocks fall, characters die" isn't the best choice. It's here for now, because there wasn't enough of time for Larian to flesh out the whole storyline.

For now, there aren't just enough of opportunities for those characters to stay alive, if we side with their opponents. I do not think that your average non-metagaming and "non-murderhobo" would kill a surrendering character. Harming those who surrender is seen as evil not only in real life but also in games as well.

Some time ago I have made a post about the fact that act 1 indeed needs more interactions and possible routes, including the mentioned surrendering and knockout being properly recognized by the game; it was well recieved and gathered plenty of views. This tells you; that it's not only my point of view.

I wouldn't be suprised, if we could side with Goblins but do not kill the Tieflings. That makes it much more netural; because as we can see the druids besides few of them, aren't exactly the nicest people on planet. This was pretty common complaint on all kinds of Baldurs Gate 3 forums too (steam/this forum/reddit).

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Sozz
EA numbers aren't indicative of much, we're supposed to be stress testing everything given us. The real question is how many people did it on their first run, with the understanding that not many people replay games, even RPGs.

Oh, in that case, I'm sure that 80-90% of players will pass the route with Minthara in the first or second or third playthrough, and this will make the game replayable.

Example - Fable - the Lost Chapters
What's the difference who did what in 1 playthrough, absolutely EVERY player played both good and evil
To be clear the question isn't if there will be something, they've already shown us that there will be, it's how well it will be done and to what extent, considering how few people will ever see it in the end. If 80%-90% of people pass it by in their first, and only 20% of people play the game more than once...you see what I'm getting at.

As it stand, I wouldn't be surprised if Minthara being alive at the end of the grove conflict means little more than having an ally at Moonrise Towers who can easily exit the plot once our quest there is over.

Or just become a companion; there is already a plenty of reasoning for this to happen. Even for non-evil playthrough.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
You have to both choose the path of most resistance in siding with the goblins, you have to not rebuff her advances, then after that you have to succeed one or two persuasion rolls in order for her to not stab you in the back after.

How is that a path of most resistence? Persuasion rolls are easy.

Originally Posted by Sozz
To be clear the question isn't if there will be something, they've already shown us that there will be, it's how well it will be done and to what extent, considering how few people will ever see it in the end. If 80%-90% of people pass it by in their first, and only 20% of people play the game more than once...you see what I'm getting at.

As it stand, I wouldn't be surprised if Minthara being alive at the end of the grove conflict means little more than having an ally at Moonrise Towers who can easily exit the plot once our quest there is over.

Remember this?:
''developer Larian lamented the fact the most popular choices in character creation resulted in just about the most generic man you could imagine. Or, as Larian put it: "the default Vault Dweller."

Why have customization options if majority of players play default human? Because the more little choices that only a small % of people will choose the better. This is an RPG every choice you don't make, makes the choice that you do make more meaningful.

Last edited by Kadajko; 24/01/21 06:56 PM.
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I haven't played the 'evil' route in a while and only once at that, but I remember failing that persuasion roll, did they change that in one of the patches? I like to think I treated her well too, though I was roleplaying a lolthsworn.
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Or just become a companion; there is already a plenty of reasoning for this to happen. Even for non-evil playthrough.
I'm not sure how non-evil runs don't end up with her and the rest of the goblin leaders being dead? And If you bypass the whole conflict you won't have spoken to her in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Kadajko
How is that a path of most resistence? Persuasion rolls are easy.
most resistance because the game gives you a lot of reasons to side with the grove before giving you the option to betray them and side with goblins, the persuasion rolls don't come into play until the questline is finished.

That Vault-Dweller stat sounds misleading, if most people in the EA are going to make more than one character, but most people in general play human-fighter, then statistically humans become more common than the myriad of races that can be chosen as an alt.

And before you ask: Halfling Mage, Elf Priestess, Half-Drow rogue, and Lolth-Sworn ranger.
I haven't played through the EA for a few patches *cough* *cough* Cyberpunk *cough*

Last edited by Sozz; 24/01/21 07:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sozz
I haven't played the 'evil' route in a while and only once at that, but I remember failing that persuasion roll, did they change that in one of the patches? I like to think I treated her well too, though I was roleplaying a lolthsworn.
Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
Or just become a companion; there is already a plenty of reasoning for this to happen. Even for non-evil playthrough.
I'm not sure how non-evil runs don't end up with her and the rest of the goblin leaders being dead? And If you bypass the whole conflict you won't have spoken to her in the first place.

If you check YT the DC is 1. On my gameplay, I had it at both 5 and 1, in different circumstances. The 5 was when I had +4 buff from cleric of Loviathar, so I guess it's bugged. Probably for that particular interactions DC is made higher, not lower, if you have some positive effects.

For now, "good" run is always lethal for Minthara. Even if you knock her out, either game thinks that she is dead or Tieflings finish her off. That's clearly a result of unimplemented options.
I have written in other posts, why there is a good chance for her to appear as a recruitable companion in future; even for PC who isn't exactly roleplaying "evil" side. If you are interested in that being explained once again, no problem.

It's completely against her character to fight until death too. Several times in game we are told how much she values her own life, that she is pretty cowardly and not really an honest believer in the cult of the Absolute. But like I said, it's 110% the result of EA.

Pretty big hint is both the existance of knockout and the fact, that prisoner cage exists in our camp. Potentially holding her as a prisoner and persuading her to join our case seems to be pretty real and logical. She also doesn't happen to know that a tadpole is inside of her head.

I will repeat what I have said before, just as a little clarification.

Originally Posted by TheOnlyRealTav
You remember though, that:
- "I do not intend to lead a suicide charge"
- "Goblins are expendable, I am not"
- She spent her whole life "anticipating knife in the back"
- Via mindreading, we get to know that she is pretty cowardly, we can even call her a coward afterwards.

She clearly values her life to a great degree and isn't the most brave person. Also, if defeaten, but not killed:
- She still needs protection from possible drow assasins, as she is an ex-Lolth believer
- Enemies are everywhere, she has no friends as well
- I do not think that Absolute tolerates failure, returning there isn't an option.

At first, she wouldn't join you out of sympathy, to quote Lae'zel - "Practical choice". That would be the reason. She is said to be very intelligent and her possible knowledge of Absolute could be put to a great use for PC. I'm pretty sure she could realise that.

We get to know too, that she isn't exactly the most honest follower of Absolute, probably she sides with them only for power.

Arguments like "only 20% of players would do this" do not make sense, because BG3 is a Larian game and those are always very well constructed and full of often hidden options. Examples include:
Divinity 2 Original sin: You can defeat Dallis in Act 1; Kniles has special voice line after being teleported into closed cage;
Baldurs Gate 3 - almost every corpse has something to say, if forced to do so via spell.

Take look at this if you wonder, how neutral/good run could still result in Minthara being alive and in possibly good relation with PC.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=748888#Post748888

The most important posts are the first one and the 3 rd last one, which is basically a summary of entire long discussion.

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What you're describing doesn't sound like very good writing to me, Killing Dallis in Act 1 only reveals that you can't kill Dallis, and you can't kill Dallis because she is important for the plot later on, defeating her is also not necessary for the plot to continue, whereas the plot in BG3 advances with the great expectation that Minthara will be dead at it's end, either by people siding with the grove, or because you've rejected her sexual advances, or because you can't talk your way out of backstabbing her (DC questions aside) If they bring her back from the dead here, it'd be through another loophole deus ex machina that they need in order for a plot important character to be around for some reason, which doesn't seem to be the case nor does it sound like making choices that matter.

I also am seriously skeptical that the knockout functionality will allow for the kind of bifurcation you're hoping for, but as a way of putting a hostile Minthara at Moonrise Towers that you could potentially suborn into your quest, I'm open to, I just don't think that without the "heart to heart" that you have with her during the camp celebration, there is going to be that option.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
I also am seriously skeptical that the knockout functionality will allow for the kind of bifurcation you're hoping for, but as a way of putting a hostile Minthara at Moonrise Towers that you could potentially suborn into your quest, I'm open to, I just don't think that without the "heart to heart" that you have with her during the camp celebration, there is going to be that option.
You should check out a game called Expeditions: Viking

Aside from the fact that it's just a really good game, it also has a knockout mechanic that is pretty meaningful.

There are plenty of situations in that game where you are in combat with a villain and your decision about whether or not kill them has a significant impact on events that follow. (In one instance, the villain escapes and gets in my way again in the future.)

It also has an interesting choices, as you have some wars in which there's no bad guy, just a "less good/more evil" guy, but you're gathering allies so you need to pick a side.

The "evil path" is also legitimised because it's about honouring your fighing culture, wrecking stuff and taking what you need by force.

I generally played EV as a "good Viking", but there were times when I came across a wealthy church, and I was like, "You know what? They're jerks and they don't need so much gold," and (nonlethally) raided the church, taking all their riches. The game didn't have a karma meter, so that didn't make me "evil", but it did mean the church hated me. lol

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Originally Posted by Sozz
What you're describing doesn't sound like very good writing to me, Killing Dallis in Act 1 only reveals that you can't kill Dallis, and you can't kill Dallis because she is important for the plot later on, defeating her is also not necessary for the plot to continue, whereas the plot in BG3 advances with the great expectation that Minthara will be dead at it's end, either by people siding with the grove, or because you've rejected her sexual advances, or because you can't talk your way out of backstabbing her (DC questions aside) If they bring her back from the dead here, it'd be through another loophole deus ex machina that they need in order for a plot important character to be around for some reason, which doesn't seem to be the case nor does it sound like making choices that matter.

I also am seriously skeptical that the knockout functionality will allow for the kind of bifurcation you're hoping for, but as a way of putting a hostile Minthara at Moonrise Towers that you could potentially suborn into your quest, I'm open to, I just don't think that without the "heart to heart" that you have with her during the camp celebration, there is going to be that option.

Defeating Dallis in Act 1 is not possible without some big metagaming knowledge that you can only possess by having decent amount of playtime. It's not a spoiler because new players will never succeed at it; even if you manage to do it; we still are given a little hint towards who she really is, not anything that could be said as a huge information or illogical part of the story.

If you have played Witcher 3, Hearts of Stone, there is a good example of a flavor for second playthrough - we aren't told who Gaunter O'diim is until the very end. During the story, we can see him appear as a various characters in the background (soldier/guard etc.) and that is once again something that a new player wouldn't even notice. Because like I said, it's in the background, it's not easily visible and new player could just assume that it's just someone simliar to him. The truth is, that he is almost all-powerful being who basically wants to keep a track on our progress without being spotted by random people (and us).

Where is it expected that Minthara will die in BG3? That she is defeated though, that is indeed what you could expect when siding with Druids. It doesn't indicate her having to die. Wyll and Halsin do tell you that you should probably kill Goblin leaders; but thing is it might happen. Do you remember that Wyll interaction, where he wants to kill the Goblin captain at the Mill and that doesn't have to actually take place.
Her advances at first aren't because of the fact that she genuinely likes you.

The entire story is told as if she was ordered to kill you during the night, when you are the least able to defend yourself. Homever, she cannot bring herself to harm you, if you proceed to treat her well.

Not being able to talk away your way out isn't a problem at this moment and will be non-existant in the future. Unless you mean the bug mentioned above. Or the intimidation check, which isn't so easy, but at same time it's understandable because she feels betrayed; if you succeeds she calms down and talks to you in very polite and caring manner. Like I said, with option for much less random DC, which will be probably favoured by players, this won't be an issue either.

There is very little reason for her to stay at side of the Absolute once she loses that battle and if we are given a possiblity of not killing her. In 99% of cases evil aligned organisations do not tolerate failure in Forgotten Realms and her being there, if she survives and we fight her, but do not kill; is not very logical.

What you forget is that she seems to have a tadpole inside her head, that is very simliar to our own. The reason for her to appear later is as good as for the rest of Origin characters. On top of this she isn't aware of this thing being inside her, so you have a good reason for companion questline simliar to others.

And if really devs expected what you have written to be the case, why would they even bother to add that cutscene in the end of the act where we are told that she is "our lover and ally" ? If she is just going to die in 99,99999999999999999% playthroughs which is not the case, why do all of this (except just for having another choice). We are also promised to meet her once again.

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Sozz
I also am seriously skeptical that the knockout functionality will allow for the kind of bifurcation you're hoping for, but as a way of putting a hostile Minthara at Moonrise Towers that you could potentially suborn into your quest, I'm open to, I just don't think that without the "heart to heart" that you have with her during the camp celebration, there is going to be that option.
You should check out a game called Expeditions: Viking

Aside from the fact that it's just a really good game, it also has a knockout mechanic that is pretty meaningful.

There are plenty of situations in that game where you are in combat with a villain and your decision about whether or not kill them has a significant impact on events that follow. (In one instance, the villain escapes and gets in my way again in the future.)

It also has an interesting choices, as you have some wars in which there's no bad guy, just a "less good/more evil" guy, but you're gathering allies so you need to pick a side.

The "evil path" is also legitimised because it's about honouring your fighing culture, wrecking stuff and taking what you need by force.

I generally played EV as a "good Viking", but there were times when I came across a wealthy church, and I was like, "You know what? They're jerks and they don't need so much gold," and (nonlethally) raided the church, taking all their riches. The game didn't have a karma meter, so that didn't make me "evil", but it did mean the church hated me. lol

From what you describe it's well done indeed. Even from most of villains, you could expect that if you do show them mercy, they definitely are going to approve this, even if you are on completely opposite sides. Owning your life to someone is probably the biggest debt that one can have. And by approve this, I mean that we might recieve help from them even in the most unexpected moment, for example.

Yes, some of them won't care and will fight/betray you again. But those won't be in majority.

Coming back to BG3 and Minthara, about who is this entire thread; she does seem to have a certain code of honour; even if towards certain people. From interactions that we have seen so far, she isn't one of those, who will be angry just because you do not want to finish them off.

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Minthara fan art by Victarii from Reddit
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Originally Posted by Kadajko
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Some new Minthara screen
[Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com][Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com][Linked Image from 64.media.tumblr.com][Linked Image from cdn.staticneo.com]

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Nice art and screenshots.

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This thread makes me want to kill Mintara on every one of my runs.

Last edited by Umsche; 25/01/21 11:41 AM.
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Originally Posted by Umsche
This thread makes me want to kill Mintara on every one of my runs.

You can just not go to this thread, and he will not bother you

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Originally Posted by Umsche
This thread makes me want to kill Mintara on every one of my runs.

I do it anyway with or without this thread. smile

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