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#699280 15/10/20 12:47 PM
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I know theres other threads ont he topic so I guess if you want to delete mine go ahead - but I really wanted toa dd an extra thread just to continue adding fuel to the fact.

It is literally the number 1 issue I have with the game right now. I am sure other bugs, glitches, model issues etc will be worked out in due course. But the hit mechanics are a fundamental design issue that need some tuning.

I'm currently playing a Warlock and I have to tell you - I never missed this much in a normal DnD game...not even by half. I think I hit, overall 25% on my warlock with spells. It's really that bad. I am very used to RTS games, tacticals, other tactical RPG's, RPG's...you name it. Ive played Divnity through a few times. Ive done pencil/paper DnD. I have never seen such poor hit chances in my life.

I always used advantage as much as I can, gaining elevated positions, clearing line of sight etc. I realise that Armor Class plays into it as well. But im standing next to an ogre trying to use Eldritch Blast or Necrotic touch from an elevated position and being given a 4% chance to hit? 10% with a bow from the same spot (restarted and repositioned Laezel t the same spot to test the differences)? I dont think so.

I just said in another thread - the problem i think is that the computer interprets the 5E ruleeset quite literally. Most HUman DM's would A) not punish players so deliberately and B) likely wouldnt factor up every single little consideration (lighting, elevation, distance, et al) as literally as the PC does. It's just brutal.

The only time I have seen 75% or better hit chance on ANY of my characters has been either melee vs prone target or from Magic Missle.


I pointed this out before too but will again: The most damage spells and effects I have noticed int he game so far are Shatter and thrown items like Alchemists fire. They seem to pretty much hit everything in the area, regardless of needing much hit chance at all, and do quite a lot of damage. For instance my best Eldritch blast so far has hit for 14 damage, at level 4. Against a single target. I cast shatter, and hit 3 targets for 17??? Before I got annoyed during one of the Gnoll fights and quit for the night, I threw an alchemists fire and damaged 3 of them for 10+ Damage. My spells arent doing that much and thats really making me go "why dont i just toss bombs around instead of even bothering with low hit% spells"


DUring one of the big goblin fights the boss threw (ima ssuming alchemist fire) or a bomb and hit 3 of my heroes for 14, 17 and 16 damage each. At level 3 that was most of the wizard and clerics health.

I just think overall tuning needs to be done to lighten up on the strict interpretation of the combat mechanics because its no fun when you're missing 66% of your attack...i say 66% because thats a near approximation of how much Ive noted I miss in a majority of at-level fights. This band of heroes have to be the absolute worst fighters I have ever seen.


Other than constantly miss im actually enjoying the game quite a lot.

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It does seem like there are a lot of modifiers to decrease chance to hit (elevation, darkness etc) that don't exist in the tabletop. I get that using elevation instead of quarter/half cover is more intuitive and possibly just easier for the game engine. But darkness shouldn't affect chance to hit unless it's total darkness, in which case the player has disadvantage. Without improvements to chance to hit these malus's make it harder to hit someone in the game than in the tabletop. It would be good if the chance to hit always showed a breakdown of why that is the percentage. If you're going to give a percentage it would be good to explain it so players can learn the systems.

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Originally Posted by Blakhart

I always used advantage as much as I can, gaining elevated positions, clearing line of sight etc. I realise that Armor Class plays into it as well. But im standing next to an ogre trying to use Eldritch Blast or Necrotic touch from an elevated position and being given a 4% chance to hit? 10% with a bow from the same spot (restarted and repositioned Laezel t the same spot to test the differences)? I dont think so.


Ranged attacks and spells that rely on rolls have disadvantage while you are in Melee.

Originally Posted by Blakhart

The only time I have seen 75% or better hit chance on ANY of my characters has been either melee vs prone target or from Magic Missle.


What is the mod on your attacks? +1, +2, +3 etc.?
I'm doing a Warlock playthrough right now and I have not had any such issue at all, most of the time I'm in the 80%-95% range.

Originally Posted by Blakhart

I pointed this out before too but will again: The most damage spells and effects I have noticed int he game so far are Shatter and thrown items like Alchemists fire. They seem to pretty much hit everything in the area, regardless of needing much hit chance at all, and do quite a lot of damage. For instance my best Eldritch blast so far has hit for 14 damage, at level 4. Against a single target. I cast shatter, and hit 3 targets for 17??? Before I got annoyed during one of the Gnoll fights and quit for the night, I threw an alchemists fire and damaged 3 of them for 10+ Damage. My spells arent doing that much and thats really making me go "why dont i just toss bombs around instead of even bothering with low hit% spells"


Eldritch Blast is a Cantrip, Shatter is a 2nd Level Spell. If Eldritch Blast did the same or more damage there would be no reason to use actual Spells.

Originally Posted by Blakhart

DUring one of the big goblin fights the boss threw (ima ssuming alchemist fire) or a bomb and hit 3 of my heroes for 14, 17 and 16 damage each. At level 3 that was most of the wizard and clerics health.


Don't clump up your characters?

Originally Posted by Blakhart

I just think overall tuning needs to be done to lighten up on the strict interpretation of the combat mechanics because its no fun when you're missing 66% of your attack...i say 66% because thats a near approximation of how much Ive noted I miss in a majority of at-level fights. This band of heroes have to be the absolute worst fighters I have ever seen.


Utilize effects more when you pick a fight, acid will reduce the AC of affected characters by 2, hex will give them disadvantage vs. an ability of your choice. With the combat system as is, I have killed the Cambions (level 5) and Commander (level 8) with all classes, if anything the DOS elements of BG3 makes it too easy.
A simple combo would be use your Warlock to cast Hex with Dex Disadvantage and to have Gale spam Ray of Frost, then have Lazael and Astarion smack prone targets.





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Originally Posted by Mxiio
Originally Posted by Blakhart

I always used advantage as much as I can, gaining elevated positions, clearing line of sight etc. I realise that Armor Class plays into it as well. But im standing next to an ogre trying to use Eldritch Blast or Necrotic touch from an elevated position and being given a 4% chance to hit? 10% with a bow from the same spot (restarted and repositioned Laezel t the same spot to test the differences)? I dont think so.


Ranged attacks and spells that rely on rolls have disadvantage while you are in Melee.

Originally Posted by Blakhart

The only time I have seen 75% or better hit chance on ANY of my characters has been either melee vs prone target or from Magic Missle.


What is the mod on your attacks? +1, +2, +3 etc.?
I'm doing a Warlock playthrough right now and I have not had any such issue at all, most of the time I'm in the 80%-95% range.

Originally Posted by Blakhart

I pointed this out before too but will again: The most damage spells and effects I have noticed int he game so far are Shatter and thrown items like Alchemists fire. They seem to pretty much hit everything in the area, regardless of needing much hit chance at all, and do quite a lot of damage. For instance my best Eldritch blast so far has hit for 14 damage, at level 4. Against a single target. I cast shatter, and hit 3 targets for 17??? Before I got annoyed during one of the Gnoll fights and quit for the night, I threw an alchemists fire and damaged 3 of them for 10+ Damage. My spells arent doing that much and thats really making me go "why dont i just toss bombs around instead of even bothering with low hit% spells"


Eldritch Blast is a Cantrip, Shatter is a 2nd Level Spell. If Eldritch Blast did the same or more damage there would be no reason to use actual Spells.

Originally Posted by Blakhart

DUring one of the big goblin fights the boss threw (ima ssuming alchemist fire) or a bomb and hit 3 of my heroes for 14, 17 and 16 damage each. At level 3 that was most of the wizard and clerics health.


Don't clump up your characters?

Originally Posted by Blakhart

I just think overall tuning needs to be done to lighten up on the strict interpretation of the combat mechanics because its no fun when you're missing 66% of your attack...i say 66% because thats a near approximation of how much Ive noted I miss in a majority of at-level fights. This band of heroes have to be the absolute worst fighters I have ever seen.


Utilize effects more when you pick a fight, acid will reduce the AC of affected characters by 2, hex will give them disadvantage vs. an ability of your choice. With the combat system as is, I have killed the Cambions (level 5) and Commander (level 8) with all classes, if anything the DOS elements of BG3 makes it too easy.
A simple combo would be use your Warlock to cast Hex with Dex Disadvantage and to have Gale spam Ray of Frost, then have Lazael and Astarion smack prone targets.






So for example on the Ogre fight... I played this through about 12 times. I get what youre saying about being close proximity is disadvantgae for range but there should be other tools to use which arent necessarily there. And frankly, a cantrip like necrotic touch shouldnt see THAT much disadvantgae even at close range. I dont have an issue with some factoring going on - but when youre telling me i basically may as well not bother - thats just shooting yourself int he foot for the sake of literal interpretation which is just dumb game design. During the same fight Laezel never had above 55% chance to hit in melee range.



I get what youre saying about Eldritch Blast vs Shatter. I guess more to the point though is the fact that the AoE spells and Effects (from simple thrown items) are outdamaging base spells. Seems silly. Seems silly to me that an NPC can toss a bottle and do more damage to my whole party than some of my most reliable spells and cantrips do. You also have to bear in mind that due to the quite literal flowing of the game design, that you have to CAMP in order to regen your spell slots - which is typical DnD.

Unfortunately this is not a tabletop DnD. People do not want to have to go through a couple of fights then camp all the time just so they have their spells back. THe cantrips SHOULD be a little bit stronger int he PC model BECAUSE you dont want to camp constantly just to be fight-worthy again. THe fights are currently challenging enough that you need to have a very prepared party to take them on.

DOnt be a smartass about the clumping of characters. This isnt my first rodeo. Unfortunately because of the way party movement works sometimes, you know, when you first enter a scene your characters arent always lined up exactly how you'd like them. The goblin boss got the first move on that one and tossed a bomb - what am I to do? I ended up restarting from an earlier save and approached it differently - but AGAIN its just pointing out the absurd level of preparation and detail youre forcing players to have to account for EVERY encounter.


The encounters are setup in such a way that you have to be really spot on to win at every step of the way. The game is way too challenging right now for I think a majority of people whoa re going to play this game. I'm ok with it as I dont mind being challenged - but if you want the game to be this hardcore it's not going to get the same following that Divinity had.

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I think the hit chances are fine. In our d&d group, vision is a factor. If you have no darkvision and there isn't a reasonable light source nearby, attacks are made at disadvantage. This is to help with immersion. I actually love how darkvision plays a role, and I hope they add a day/night cycle so that it plays more of a role. Statistically, humans are the best in game for EA, because they are the only race to start with 3 ability scores with a +3 modifier. But if darkvision became more impactful, that may not be the case since they would be at a disadvantage more often without aid.

Why would they make a cantrip, a level 0 spell that can be spammed all day, do comparable damage to a 2nd level spell? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I think the combat encounters are actually very well balanced, but slightly on the "to easy side" (assuming you are in a level appreciate area). If you use some buffing spells/abilities or conditions you will have an easier time. If every party member does nothing but attack, you are at a disadvantage. Shadow heart can bless your party to hit easier, warlock can hex enemies to make them more vulnerable to condition effects, etc. Utility spells and abilities are there for a reason.

Unfortunately, the 5e edition makes the early game much more difficult than later game for hitting. Starting out you won't have very good proficiency bonus or weapons and any armor will give you a 50-65% chance to hit before other modifiers. Later in the game, since AC has a soft cap of 20, as you get better gear and more xp, hitting becomes much easier.

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Originally Posted by Blakhart


*snip*

And frankly, a cantrip like necrotic touch shouldnt see THAT much disadvantgae even at close range. *snip* During the same fight Laezel never had above 55% chance to hit in melee range.

*snip*
DOnt be a smartass about the clumping of characters. This isnt my first rodeo. *snip*

The encounters are setup in such a way that you have to be really spot on to win at every step of the way. The game is way too challenging right now for I think a majority of people whoa re going to play this game. I'm ok with it as I dont mind being challenged - but if you want the game to be this hardcore it's not going to get the same following that Divinity had.


Read the description of Chill Touch (you got the name wrong). It's a Ranged Spell Attack. It has the same amount of Disadvantage as every other Ranged attack. And there isn't stacking of advantage or disadvantage. You either have it, or you don't. If Laz never got above 55% chance to hit, you're not even remotely trying to take advantage of various game mechanics. Which is fine and should absolutely exist as a viable strategy at lower difficulty levels, but EA is roughly "Hard" difficulty according to Larian.

This pretty clearly is your first rodeo at a Hard level of difficulty, or, alternatively, you have no experience with 5e/DoS mechanics. I actually agree with almost all of your criticisms (goblins shouldn't have a fucking bag of holding worth of bombs to throw), but not your solution. Low level 5e D&D involves missing your swings, it makes it that much more satisfying when you get to level up and increase your hit chance.

And to your last point, I totally agree. I don't want the same following that DoS had. I want the following BG 1 and BG 2 still have to this day. You know, the universally well reviewed, constantly topping ratings charts even 2 decades after release, and such a loyal, sustained, and dedicated fan base that it gets a sequel made 20 years later?

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Originally Posted by Carnage11334
I think the hit chances are fine.
+1

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I think most of you, especially in early access, are hardocre fanboys with a narrow scope and vision. I mean this with no actual offense meant; I just think your vision is limited and too narrow. TO the Devs at Larian - you have to ask yourself a question: Do you want to make a literal love letter to just hardcore DnD and Baldurs Gate fans or do you actually want to make a fun and exhilerating game that everyone who loves RPG's will enjoy?

Because currently - this game is only going to appease people who are already in love with Baldurs Gate or DnD (and probably players who have leaned towards playing pen and paper DnD themselves...which is not the majority of gamers)


I get it's DnD. I understand the sentiments behind that. This ISNT my first Rodeo - ive been playing games for over 35 years and video games for 30 and have done all kinds of gaming, including boardgames, tabletop, pen and paper, and even MUDs. Apart from DnD ive partaken in Rebellion, Conan - Adventures in a world unheard of, Pulp fiction RPG's and others. I'm probably not AS familiar with 5E ruleset as previous versions of the game.- BUT that really shouldnt matter.

The entire point can be surmised in a single statement:

The point of a game is to have fun. The current design and flow of combat with all its complexities and computational attitude is decidedly NOT fun to play.



Pretty. SImple. Concept.

If the game is frustrating and not fun - people aren't going to love it. You arent going to get this "cult following" where people relish a sequel because theyre going to throw their mice before getting to level 5 and not want to ever play again.



I dont really care what you do: If you dont want to mess with the hit mechanics because youre too precious about the literal interpretation of the ruleset - then tone down the HP of level 1-5 MOBs by 15-20%.

Otherwise - increase the hit percentages and tone the HP of MOBs UP a little bit to compensate. Allow players to FEEL like they arent just wasting their turns over and over with repeated missing.

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In my experience, as long as I'm playing to a character's strengths and doing what I'm "supposed" to be doing (i.e. not using Gale to make a melee attack with his staff), hit chances are almost always at least 70%, which is already higher than it is in tabletop a lot of the time.

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You need to polish your Cratemancy.

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Originally Posted by Blakhart
The entire point can be surmised in a single statement:

The point of a game is to have fun. The current design and flow of combat with all its complexities and computational attitude is decidedly NOT fun to play.

I hear you, but I really don't believe we need to deviate from the 5e ruleset at all. Just adding a difficulty setting in which the rollls slightly favoured the player would be enough to make it more accessible to more casual and new players.


Necromancy is just recycling...
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Based on how easy u can get advantage from backstabbing and high ground, I'd say your hit chance is much higher than it was in PnP.

Maybe OP doesn't take full advantage of these feature,

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I agree that people that are new to DnD but want to experience Baldur's Gate, the combat system is going to be difficult for them. To me personally, I find it difficult to understand when a bad guy is in front of you and you use your best move and miss let alone a critical miss. To me that's seems crazy, no way should you miss unless the bad guy has some crazy ass armor or is a higher level than you. I know Baldur's Gate is DnD, but like you said, it's not going to attract new players that don't understand the system or if they feel like the game is too hard. Like Druid_NPC said, if they were to add difficulty setting like DOS has, it might be better for new players and for those that are having a hard time.

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Originally Posted by Blakhart
*snip*

The point of a game is to have fun. The current design and flow of combat with all its complexities and computational attitude is decidedly NOT fun to play.

If the game is frustrating and not fun - people aren't going to love it. You arent going to get this "cult following" where people relish a sequel because theyre going to throw their mice before getting to level 5 and not want to ever play again.



Did....did you actually *play* Baldur's Gate 1 and Baldur's Gate 2?

The only reason this game is being made *at all* is because those games were complex and computational enough to support a thriving and dedicated community for over 20 years with nothing more to sustain it than Enhanced Editions that added even more complexity via even more class options and spells.

I do agree with you that the game is not fun. It also isn't made in the spirit of the original Baldur's Gate games, again, the only reason this game is being made at all. While a looser and less strict/complex game is what *you* would favor, you also clearly aren't part of the community that sustain the BG series long enough to see it turned into a trilogy. So yeah, I'd rather Larian realize just why BG 1 and BG 2 were, and have remained so popular and so fun far longer than any other games in the genre. You can decry them all you want, those hardcore DnD and Baldur's Gate fans are why this game is being made at all.

Last edited by Isaac Springsong; 16/10/20 07:17 AM.
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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
*snip*

if they were to add difficulty setting like DOS has, it might be better for new players and for those that are having a hard time.


Larian has already stated multiple times that they are using the equivalent of a 'Hard' difficulty for EA to test which content may be easier or harder than intended. Full release will have difficulty settings, though they haven't said what that means (BG style where it changes certain rules, or DoS style).

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Originally Posted by Blakhart


The entire point can be surmised in a single statement:

The point of a game is to have fun. The current design and flow of combat with all its complexities and computational attitude is decidedly NOT fun to play.



Pretty. SImple. Concept.



Haha you should have fought Lord Firkraag!
Seriously though - no the fights are not too difficult at all and finally present some intellectual challenge, which I find sorely missing from a lot of modern day RPGs (starting with DAO - which is one of my favourite games of all times but a huge backstep from BG2 in terms od combat complexity).

And I'm sure there's gonna be an easy mode later on - they've always said
EA is meant for hardcore fans and those expecting a smooth ride should wait for the full release, so what's the problem?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dth-BWAKJz8

This is how "hard" the game is currently. 2 Minotaurs killed with 1 action.

Last edited by Mxiio; 16/10/20 07:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
To me personally, I find it difficult to understand when a bad guy is in front of you and you use your best move and miss let alone a critical miss. To me that's seems crazy, no way should you miss unless the bad guy has some crazy ass armor or is a higher level than you.
If you're talking about realism, this is why:











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I think the OP is correct, and I usually have no trouble at all with combat.

I'm currently doing a replay, trying out different things. I was doing my most favorite Gnoll fight yesterday, and I needed two tries to win the fight. the first time, I was slightly sloppy in my approach. So in the first three rounds, with hit chances between 50 and 70, I missed 11 times with my team and hit exactly once. Meanwhile the Gnolls, especially the archers, seem to hit at will. At the end of round three, I had two characters down and the MC was on life support (1 hp left).

I know that I was hit with really bad RNG, or in other words: shit happened, but at this point in the game, stuff like this happening is ridiculous. This is basically a low level, introduction encounter, and it shouldn't kill me off because my approach wasn't optimal.
The second approach worked a lot better, simply be being just a tad more careful. Two critical hits by Lae'zel and my MC in the first round certainly helped. But again, the fight had its ridiculous moment. I tuned the mini-boss, so it attacked her fellow gnolls. Well, she got off exactly one attack, before being killed by the gnasher (three attacks per round, three hits), and the three archers (three attack per rounds each, three hits each, with the third killing the boss with the first shot). This is out of whack.

My point is that for a more casual gamer, this will be extremely frustrating. I'm a lot more hardcore than is good for me, and I actually find this fun, but it doesn't mean that I'm blind to the current shortcomings. And I was sitting in front of my monitor after the end of round three on the first approach loudly shouting "You cannot be serious."

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I can't recall the stat block for the Gnolls but say you were to equip Lazael with the following:
+1 Scale Mail (Found at Tiefling Blacksmith in the Grove)
A Shield
A Helmet (Crit Immune)
Broodmother's Revenge (from Kagha)

Her base AC is 10 + 1 from Dex
Scale Mail +1 would bring her AC to 16
Shield brings it to 18
Then hit her with Shield of Faith from either Shadowheart, Gale (can learn from scroll) or your Player Character, she now has an AC of 20.
Then hit her with Bless (if you didn't use Shadowheart to cast Shield of Faith, or your PC is a cleric too, or if you have a scroll) .
Then hit her with with a Healing Word (if Shadowheart or your Cleric PC has the Hellrider's Gloves) she now has Resistance to Slashing, Piercing and Bludgeoning damage and her weapon is poisoned.
If Lazael is level 4 at this point you may have put 1 in Strenght for 18 and 1 in Dex for 14, putting her total AC to 21.

She can now kill all the Gnolls without any further help needed from the rest of the party and the prerequisites are you only that you have visited the Grove and have spent about 3000g unless you decided to pickpocket the gear.

Alternatively, your PC is a Wood Elf with high Dexterity (any class) wielding a Longbow or Shortbow. You can be level 1 and have 8 in all other stats. No problem.
Press C.
Hold TAB to see enemies vision areas.
Move up to the edge if required, but aim to stay at maximum range for your Longbow.
Press Space to enter Turn Mode.
Shoot somebody.
If you are detected and enter combat, move full movement away from the enemies.
If you are not detected wait for next turn, then shoot somebody again.
If you are detected and enter combat, move full movement away from the enemies...
Guess what, they can never get in range, because your movement is further than theirs.
You win, for free.
Fun fact, if you have Crusher's Ring, you're movement is 13.3m, if you are a Thief you have 2 bonus actions and can dash as a bonus action - you're movement is now 26.6m. If you have the Amulet of Misty Step, you can use your second bonus action to move another 18m in a tight spot instead of hiding.





Last edited by Mxiio; 16/10/20 09:04 AM.
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