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#701378 16/10/20 07:50 AM
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So several attempts at the Fight with Guts when she finds out about your worm.

1. To many enemies with the goblins coming to her aid, and the Zents body guards, then her. This causes you to be outnumbered not only by enemies, which leads to them being able to use far more actions then you can ever hope to counter. Without cheesing barrels, shove, and the like. I'd recommend dropping the number of enemies also limiting the number of spells. Perhaps the Zhents simply stand and watch. With the amount of spells being hurled many of them hitting your team. It takes only one round to get a tpk, maybe 2. Though it takes around 4 or 5 rounds for the ones below to get up to you. Thats still not enough to drop more then maybe 1 enemy do to limited amount of actions in a standard party.

Party consisted of level 3's Le'azul fighter, Shadowheart Cleric, and Ast rogue/thief. Then my wizard with magic missiles since Guts uses mirror image, and other spells to buff herself. As does the Zhent Trader. Without god rolls going on your unlikely to drop a Zhent, or Guts without the use of things that are sure hits, such as magic missile.

I also dropped several surface weapons to limit movement and give sure damage as people moved through. This gave a minor advantage resulting in the death of 2 of the low level goblins. At end of fight with surface bombs covering the stairs. I was still outnumbered, with very little damage done to the Zhents, and Guts nearly dead. Most of my equipment was standard except gloves of power (good item yet only really seems useful to main character do to fact the others don't get the mark. Unless I'm wrong will experiment more.) I was also using the True Strike spear on Ast, to further increase my hit chance.

Another fight I was able to drop Guts rapidly do to pulling my party into the room with her and my hero. Again I started off with surface coverage to get assured damage, true strike spear on Ast for the ability to land sneak attacks. This resulted in Guts dying and many of the other combatants wounded. Yet within one round I was tpk'd do to simply being outnumbered in actions, and amount of spells that was being hurled.

Thinking if your wishing the Zhents to join in the fight then the number of goblins allies need to be taken out completely. Then as you walk down the stairs they can attack you, maybe from ambush. The Zhents and Guts alone are a nasty fight, but with goblin backup it turns into a massacre which is never fun, just from the amount of actions they can take. Many of them harder hitting spells like witch bolt, a couple buffs, sleep, and a couple others.

I'll test more and see if I can't find a non cheese way to finish the fight.

editted: Also why do you have the enemy able to attack, while the rest of your party near the enemies simply standing there and not joining battle? A code thing?

Last edited by clavis; 16/10/20 07:51 AM.
clavis #701390 16/10/20 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by clavis

editted: Also why do you have the enemy able to attack, while the rest of your party near the enemies simply standing there and not joining battle? A code thing?


If your characters in your party is not in combat, you can select them and take an action on your turn.

clavis #701396 16/10/20 08:11 AM
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Yeah, was curious do to if your in combat, and an enemy call call for help from so far away. Should your companions who are even closer, just outside the door not go into combat. It seems wierd that everyone else some 100's of feet away heard her, yet my companions are derping it watching everyone run to the door.

Edit also her amulet is unequipable? though it wouldn't help in the fight, just to much damage, and aoe's flying about from over half the enemy combatants. Should limit them to single target spells instead of burning hands and such. Would make it slightly easier, combined with a few less goblins.

Last edited by clavis; 16/10/20 08:14 AM.
clavis #701398 16/10/20 08:16 AM
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I find that the simplest way of dealing with her is Hex with Wisdom Disadvantage followed by Hold Person. Then have Lazael (with a Greatsword and Great weapon fighting) hit her a couple of times while the rest of the party first destroys the wardrum and picks off the lowest health enemies.

clavis #701407 16/10/20 08:25 AM
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Yeah, I've not got a warlock for the hex in my party. It's a standard party, just a Battle master, thief, cleric and evocation wizard. I can if I focus easily bring her down. Though this gives the AI enough time to group up, and her call for help is her first round go to. So if I don't drop her immediatly she calls for help. I'm doing the path were she tries to heal you, gives you the mark, then takes you into her room. Without the ability to finish her off in the first round, before she acts, it turns into a cluster of epic proportions.

Taking her out with full group isn't that hard, it's the Zhents, and four of her minions that come up spam Aoe's and simply melt my party. You can't heal out of it, because with the action economy, you get 2 heals from your cleric (and SH at the moment isn't very good), then everyone bonus actions for a health potion. Attacks on their turn if their still up. Next turns of enemies are again Aoe's which deal more damage then everything but your Clerics 2nd level cure wounds. Alot of 16 damages popping up. which not even second wind can take multipule shots of that high of damage.

clavis #701411 16/10/20 08:30 AM
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Some damage can be mitagated vie using illithid powers but, still not enough. I could cheese the barrel to deal some damage to the Zhents but I'm totally against that. Surface from spells is meh, I can see a reason for them. Even with using the barrel theres just not enough RAW damage/actions your able to do to compensate for whats coming at you. It's over double your actions, and if all those are hitting you, then it gets even worse cause your healer is being a heal bot, and can't do damage. Bonus actions are being used to burn through your healing potions, instead of being used to provide buffs. Then there is fact that SH without proper build can't hold concentration up if she's hit. Which takes out bless, or bane to either buff you, or debuff your enemies.

clavis #701432 16/10/20 08:45 AM
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I did this fight twice. First I tried to do it on my own and got slaughtered. Other word doesent describe it as accuratly.

And the 2nd time I used the warhorn that I got from the Ogres. Which made the fight managable even when 2 of the ogres almost died still, my own party dident take that many of the hits though. How would I do this fight without them? I have absolutely no clue. 1st fight I went before Guts and cast Silence on her. Figuring she couldnt call for help nor cast spell. Joke was on me. She could do both....

Even if you kill her in 1 round, the amount of Goblins is just to much. They have to much hp and do to much damage. If they used the proper Goblin template from the monster manual then you know.... Sure. You can kill them in 1 blow if you are lucky and then their numbers qukly become managable. But thats not what Larian did. It looks like each humanoid enemy also has a class and theres a reason why the monster manual doesent do that -_- It grealty ramps up the capabilities of enemies and the big healthpool basicly completly counteracts Goblins' 1 major drawback.

So agree with OP. Either tune down their numbers or tune down their stats. Both solutions could work.

clavis #701442 16/10/20 08:51 AM
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Even with thinned numbers, the Zhents alone with 1 or 2 goblins can wipe you out. If I could see what each was, I'd be able to balance it far better. Thinking the level one goblins are okay, they don't have a class from what I've seen. The novices seem to actually by a mix of cleric, and wizard. Do to ones use of guiding bolt, and another enjoying burning hands. Not sure if same novice casted Shield of Faith or not. If they were just leveled up. Take a normal goblins hp, from monster manual, and double it. The fight would be manageable until the Zhents come marching on. I can see Zhents having a fighter, and a ranger/thief with the trader being maybe a warlock. Right now it seems they have access to both weapon skills, and wizard abilities. Though think some of it is a potion of invisibility. Not sure going to explore from a previous save point, and try again when higher level.

clavis #701466 16/10/20 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by clavis
Even with thinned numbers, the Zhents alone with 1 or 2 goblins can wipe you out. If I could see what each was, I'd be able to balance it far better. Thinking the level one goblins are okay, they don't have a class from what I've seen. The novices seem to actually by a mix of cleric, and wizard. Do to ones use of guiding bolt, and another enjoying burning hands. Not sure if same novice casted Shield of Faith or not. If they were just leveled up. Take a normal goblins hp, from monster manual, and double it. The fight would be manageable until the Zhents come marching on. I can see Zhents having a fighter, and a ranger/thief with the trader being maybe a warlock. Right now it seems they have access to both weapon skills, and wizard abilities. Though think some of it is a potion of invisibility. Not sure going to explore from a previous save point, and try again when higher level.

Pretty sure the novices are clerics. I honestly have only seen them cast cleric spells. Maybe they had a scroll on them? They dont seem to be class restricted and enemies do like to use their items. Ive seen npcs basicly use consumables in their 1st turn so you will. never have a chance to loot it unless you kill them before they get to use them. Which is kinda sad. In bg1 and 2 enemies often had consumables on them as well but rarely did they use all of them right away. You often could kill them and still loot some of them.

clavis #701475 16/10/20 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by clavis
Yeah, I've not got a warlock for the hex in my party. It's a standard party, just a Battle master, thief, cleric and evocation wizard. I can if I focus easily bring her down. Though this gives the AI enough time to group up, and her call for help is her first round go to. So if I don't drop her immediatly she calls for help. I'm doing the path were she tries to heal you, gives you the mark, then takes you into her room. Without the ability to finish her off in the first round, before she acts, it turns into a cluster of epic proportions.

Taking her out with full group isn't that hard, it's the Zhents, and four of her minions that come up spam Aoe's and simply melt my party. You can't heal out of it, because with the action economy, you get 2 heals from your cleric (and SH at the moment isn't very good), then everyone bonus actions for a health potion. Attacks on their turn if their still up. Next turns of enemies are again Aoe's which deal more damage then everything but your Clerics 2nd level cure wounds. Alot of 16 damages popping up. which not even second wind can take multipule shots of that high of damage.


I've not been in that situation myself, I steer clear of marks as a principle. :P
But given the amount of tools you can find opposite the Torture chamber (one million barrels of boom) and the fact that you have an evocation wizard, you should be able to one-shot whatever is thrown at you. I suppose that might be the cheese you want to avoid, if so, I suggest unchaining your party entirely, buffing up Lazael to the point where she should have 20-21 AC is blessed and has a variety of potions (resist this, resist that and haste). Then sneak everyone, except Lazael into the area where the fight is going to happen, far enough away that they wont be part of the actual fight, once you initiate the fight their job will be to take a single action from stealth to nuke down whomever is the highest threat to you while Lazael tank.

On a side-note, if you want to "buff-up" SH a little, go pickpocket Volo for his Ring (1 round bless effect on heal targets) and grab the Amulet off Kagha for Lazael (when healed, poisons weapon), if you're a bit of a meany take the Hellrider's Gauntlets from Zelvor (heal targets get resistance to slashing, piercing and bludgeoning) - that should do the trick to make her feel useful by simply being a Healing Word or Cure Wounds + Shield of Faith or Bless bot.

Last edited by Mxiio; 16/10/20 09:35 AM.
clavis #701479 16/10/20 09:33 AM
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I went into the back room with her then refused help. She was not hostile at this point (was there a roll for this? I forgot) so I wandered around until I made it on top of the wall overlooking that room (she stayed in it.) Then I stealth cheesed the fight with only the ranger spider companion as distraction. She did call for help but since no one could figure out where I was, the only ones that came into the room were the ones that could heal her. Took them out first then finished her off, actually had to not hide for some turns to draw the rest into the room.

For this goblin camp you just have to find good vantage points. There are plenty of ladders, some of which you can destroy so no one can get to you. Everyone gets the Hide bonus action, this is very useful. For a full party you could maybe use a melee as the distraction but it can be done ranged only. There are also other environmental objects that can be used besides barrels and crates in certain areas.

Mxiio #701481 16/10/20 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Mxiio
Originally Posted by clavis
Yeah, I've not got a warlock for the hex in my party. It's a standard party, just a Battle master, thief, cleric and evocation wizard. I can if I focus easily bring her down. Though this gives the AI enough time to group up, and her call for help is her first round go to. So if I don't drop her immediatly she calls for help. I'm doing the path were she tries to heal you, gives you the mark, then takes you into her room. Without the ability to finish her off in the first round, before she acts, it turns into a cluster of epic proportions.

Taking her out with full group isn't that hard, it's the Zhents, and four of her minions that come up spam Aoe's and simply melt my party. You can't heal out of it, because with the action economy, you get 2 heals from your cleric (and SH at the moment isn't very good), then everyone bonus actions for a health potion. Attacks on their turn if their still up. Next turns of enemies are again Aoe's which deal more damage then everything but your Clerics 2nd level cure wounds. Alot of 16 damages popping up. which not even second wind can take multipule shots of that high of damage.


I've not been in that situation myself, I steer clear of marks as a principle. :P
But given the amount of tools you can find opposite the Torture chamber (one million barrels of boom) and the fact that you have an evocation wizard, you should be able to one-shot whatever is thrown at you. I suppose that might be the cheese you want to avoid, if so, I suggest unchaining your party entirely, buffing up Lazael to the point where she should have 20-21 AC is blessed and has a variety of potions (resist this, resist that and haste). Then sneak everyone, except Lazael into the area where the fight is going to happen, far enough away that they wont be part of the actual fight, once you initiate the fight their job will be to take a single action from stealth to nuke down whomever is the highest threat to you while Lazael tank.

Big problem with that. You are assuming that 1: the AI will infact target her, and target her with things that need to contest with her AC. 2: That they wont disable her in some other manner. 3: That the player can do enough damage that the buffs last you for the majority of the fight.

Ive seen the AI use the sleep spell. Which can instantly knock her prone and take her out of the fight. Spells like hold person ive also seen them use. Spells like burning hands or simular spells that auto hit only allows saves to halve damage. They completly bypass armour. Cantrips even if they miss cause an AOE on the floor which will cause damage. Buffing is a valid (partial) solution but given that each buff has either concentration that can be broken or a short limited time that its active I dont think it will be enough.

Also, given the large number of enemies they will eventually have attacks that hit home, even with an AC of 20-21. Or what more likely will happen is that they ignore her and go for the rest of the party first. Those are the ones holding concentration which will be lost and make her less buffed as well. Having 1 uber buffed character can work but not when you are faced with this many enemies....

clavis #701496 16/10/20 09:48 AM
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I've always found this fight easy. Have all four characters in position around the room sneaking, make sure doors are closed, and take her down in a surprise round (or if your initiative rolls good enough you may have 2 rounds before she calls for help).

Nobody ever heard her screams.... >:D

Also on the remark of the AI companions getting the mark. They can, you just need to select that character and initiate the conversation with them. I've generally got it on my whole party, as there's no negative to doing so in EA.


Anything you can do, a bard can do better.
clavis #701869 16/10/20 07:40 PM
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I'll do a quick repeat.

1. not trying to cheese but do it straight up. Yes I know cheddar is avialable, but I personally hate with a passion exploiting, and cheesy actions. If I didn't hate it so much I could easily win by methods described.

2. I've no reason to know what zevlor, Kadha or anyone has on them. If I was trying to steal everyone blind I'd do that, it's not my character or nature of my party to just steal everything, attack everything etc to figure out if they had good stuff on them. (if thats your play cool)

3. With any game I refuse to cheese/exploit/murderhobo instead use tactics to achieve endgame. It's my playstyle, and my code. Do I get frustrated, and angry at times because of it yes. Again thats on me, for not using exploits, and cheese, taking the easy route. (though at times it takes some brain power)

4. By using exploits, and cheese moves I feel your harming the game in EA were they want honest feedback, not well if you jump here to do X noone touches you. Yes that kind of feedback helps them to figure out whats being used to exploit/cheese. Yet if a vast majority of people are doing it, then your killing it for people that want to actually do things without making an exploit sandwich.

5. unless your invulnerable the number of actions that is leveled at you is crazy. Even with 20-21 AC aoe's have no problem hitting Lae'zel do to surface damage, and if she can't hit them then odds are stacked she's going to fall. If you have her help up her companions she doesn't get an attack. Enemy dings fresh raised companion, they fall again. If you don't help them up, and manage to survive your going to be out of revive scrolls. Then out of healing potions/items/spells unless you again cheese the camp option. yet you've still got the entire goblin camp to go through. Not good DM'ing

6. I didn't start the fight in this play through, to see how far it would go. If I could learn more from her, or if I should follow my characters notion, and kill her when she tries to give me the potion. Again testing out different things to give informed feedback, on different causes and effects etc.

Quent #701872 16/10/20 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Quent
I've always found this fight easy. Have all four characters in position around the room sneaking, make sure doors are closed, and take her down in a surprise round (or if your initiative rolls good enough you may have 2 rounds before she calls for help).

Nobody ever heard her screams.... >:D

Also on the remark of the AI companions getting the mark. They can, you just need to select that character and initiate the conversation with them. I've generally got it on my whole party, as there's no negative to doing so in EA.


I'll have to try this to test it. Normally wench calls for Help right off the bat, then bonus actions a defense buff. Though think it's giving her 2 actions?? So buff, and call are both actions? Unsure do to not being able to see character information. Which 2 actions is standard really for most 'boss creatures'

course can't see information without getting hired on by Larian, and that is impossible in the long term.

Last edited by clavis; 16/10/20 07:45 PM.
clavis #702248 17/10/20 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by clavis
I'll do a quick repeat.

1. not trying to cheese but do it straight up. Yes I know cheddar is avialable, but I personally hate with a passion exploiting, and cheesy actions. If I didn't hate it so much I could easily win by methods described.

2. I've no reason to know what zevlor, Kadha or anyone has on them. If I was trying to steal everyone blind I'd do that, it's not my character or nature of my party to just steal everything, attack everything etc to figure out if they had good stuff on them. (if thats your play cool)

3. With any game I refuse to cheese/exploit/murderhobo instead use tactics to achieve endgame. It's my playstyle, and my code. Do I get frustrated, and angry at times because of it yes. Again thats on me, for not using exploits, and cheese, taking the easy route. (though at times it takes some brain power)

4. By using exploits, and cheese moves I feel your harming the game in EA were they want honest feedback, not well if you jump here to do X noone touches you. Yes that kind of feedback helps them to figure out whats being used to exploit/cheese. Yet if a vast majority of people are doing it, then your killing it for people that want to actually do things without making an exploit sandwich.

5. unless your invulnerable the number of actions that is leveled at you is crazy. Even with 20-21 AC aoe's have no problem hitting Lae'zel do to surface damage, and if she can't hit them then odds are stacked she's going to fall. If you have her help up her companions she doesn't get an attack. Enemy dings fresh raised companion, they fall again. If you don't help them up, and manage to survive your going to be out of revive scrolls. Then out of healing potions/items/spells unless you again cheese the camp option. yet you've still got the entire goblin camp to go through. Not good DM'ing

6. I didn't start the fight in this play through, to see how far it would go. If I could learn more from her, or if I should follow my characters notion, and kill her when she tries to give me the potion. Again testing out different things to give informed feedback, on different causes and effects etc.


1. and 3. Not sure what you are specifically considering cheesing here so please disregard if this does not apply. Stealth is always a valid tactic in most games. Tactical positioning (in this case being on the rafters) can often keep you alive. Even if they fix the enemy AI so it acts more realistically when being attacked, positioning is still going to be a big part. I realise not everyone enjoys playing like a sniper or assassin, but especially with these lower levels it is sometimes necessary until you get the better powers later on.

4. I purposely do this kind of stuff in EA so it can be fixed. If no one reports this kind of stuff then many people will do it after release then complain about the game.

Zarna #702415 17/10/20 04:30 AM
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@Zarna

1 and 3. good point about rafters, I didn't realize I could get up there. As for stealth I've yet to try it, so I'll do that when I load up my evil dude next time. It's true about the sniper assassin, I tend to try and get Ast to play along that way. Though in this fight, been sorta rushing it like a moron, have no idea why either. Bloody rafters why didn't I think of that.... no j/k it completely eluded me, and it's viable as a non mac and cheese. On my last run through I did better in the fight, with a pair of warlocks in the party. along with thief, great weapon battle master, and cleric. Killed a good amount, but still that 13 to 4 is killer. even with haste on every one till I run out of potions/action surge. As for my cheese it's revolved around being where your not spose to be an can't be hit/found by Ai, and barrels.. barrels.. barrels. A few barrels like one or two. The whole stacking barrels, upon barrels is just to much. I know some like it, I just can't.

4. That is true, but I honestly am so antiexpliot that I feel like slapping myself, or flogging myself when I catch myself doing it. Can't teach an old dog new tricks and all that.

Back to the pit I go. thanks for the ideas

clavis #704153 18/10/20 02:38 AM
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So as I played through my good side of things, I came upon the normal Guts and minions. Though decicedly a tough fight, with 3 of my party falling into unconsciousness on and off throughout. Without the Zhent traders this fight went in my favor. I'll stick by my earlier posts and say for balance. The Zhents need to be out of the fight, you could possibly add one or two low level goblin archers without special effects such as fire arrows and the like. It may increase the difficulty to much, but it may not.

This playthrough I went through killing spike and those on the left side of the temple. Followed up with the Drow and her gobo bosses, then got oopsed into a fight with the gobo guards between main room, and throne room. Were Guts and her ilk came to try and slay me. Sadly for them I was up to the task. Ended with 3 companions need immediate attention, and the last needing healing. From there I goofed again and triggered the throne room fight. after this 3 of my party save Lae was kia. Though I did manage to beat it with no cheddar for my burger, the final health on Lae was 14.

Party consisted of Lae great weapon fighter, with longbow and her normal armor. Axe was the one that allows you to do 1d6 damage if your below 50% health. Shadowheart cleric normal weapons and gear save for the amulet she plucked from the corpse in the drow room. Wyll standard geared warlock. And my character another warlock Great Old one. (which really needs something to pick. atm they are to bareboned to stand up against Fiend warlocks and their dark ones blessing.) Spear from first ruins, that gives you true strike on misses. (unsure if it is working properly all misses grant truestrike.) and nothing other then normal gear.

A wizard/Gale instead of one of the warlocks might lower the difficulty, or a rogue like whats his name Ass, Astsomething might as well. May update in future.

clavis #704169 18/10/20 02:56 AM
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I've done this fight twice. Once I stayed on the right hand side and used the pillars to block line of sight, I would pop out, shoot at a goblin and then retreat (not using hide cheese, just line of sight to prevent missiles). The goblins had to come up the stairs to get a proper attack on me where I picked them off as they trickled in. After a couple of rounds there were a few too many goblins still, so I focused all my guys on the north side and used darkness to prevent them from shooting me from the south. Cleaned up the north goblins and the nwent down to deal wit hthe onesi nthe south as they emerged fro mthe darkness.

Second time I fought this battle, I followed guts into her room first. I was intending to side with her but when I wouldnt let her attempt to remove the tadpole she attacked. I brought all my guys into the room with her and killed her right away, and then just defended the doorway where they were forced to trickle through one at a time and get slaughtered. Fod cloud or darkness would have made this even more efficient b ut I found it wasn't really needed..

Last edited by Muldeh; 18/10/20 02:57 AM.
clavis #704217 18/10/20 03:36 AM
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what party comp gear were you using?? if you don't remember it's cool.

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