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#701520 16/10/20 04:02 PM
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Tieflings in 5e are common and normal, but that wasn't the case when BG1, BG2, and Neverwinter Nights were made. For people that are fans of Forgotten Realms through these games, it might come off as strange that horned devil-people are just walking around, and you interact with them as if they aren't a monster. BG3 itself makes this worse by introducing you to actual devils in hell, so we've established that red-horned devils are creatures from hell. (and they look almost indistinguishable from Tieflings)

Then we run into Tieflings at the druid grove, and we just talk to them as if they are people. Narratively it makes no sense. You would rightfully think they were invaders from hell that followed your ship.

Something simple could fix this, like a few lines of dialogue. But the game should teach you the difference between Tieflings and Devils. The current arrangement where you should just know a refugee camp full devils is okay seems off and confusing.

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Apparently there is dialogue somewhere explaining where they came from. I admit I didn't hit all the dialogue I could, but from the sounds of it, this is a direct off-shoot of the end results of the Avernus campaign book from the TTRPG. I think there was a tiefling community that was surviving in Avernus somehow and they managed to escape to Faerun during the events of the campaign. I think...I'm uncertain of the specifics.

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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Apparently there is dialogue somewhere explaining where they came from. I admit I didn't hit all the dialogue I could, but from the sounds of it, this is a direct off-shoot of the end results of the Avernus campaign book from the TTRPG. I think there was a tiefling community that was surviving in Avernus somehow and they managed to escape to Faerun during the events of the campaign. I think...I'm uncertain of the specifics.


I think the leader of the Tieflings mentions that at some point if you help them.

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They reference Elturel repeatedly, it's a city that was pulled from Faerun into Avernus by Zariel, also referenced. During the D&D adventure Decent into Avernus, it is possible for the player characters to have Zariel put the city back on Faerun. I expect the Tieflings escaped Avernus simply by fleeing to in while it was in Avernus and then tagging along for the ride to Faerun in the process.

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Agreed, if you played Decent into Avernus it's much more clear but relying on people playing BG3 to know this is not a good design decision, Baldur's Gate 1 was released in 1998, I don't have to know anything about what was going on in the Forgotten reals 22 years ago to be able to get into the game, let's make the same true for BG3

Koshea #701584 16/10/20 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Koshea
Agreed, if you played Decent into Avernus it's much more clear but relying on people playing BG3 to know this is not a good design decision, Baldur's Gate 1 was released in 1998, I don't have to know anything about what was going on in the Forgotten reals 22 years ago to be able to get into the game, let's make the same true for BG3



I'm not 100% up to speed on D&D lore(nowhere near hahaha). I have the Decent Into Avernus book, which I bought to run as a DM for my gaming buddy I plan to play BG3 with(as it's a prequel). I'm going to have to read through and learn about the whole Tiefling ting.


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They are still uncommon in 5e. Elturel was taken to hell and then returned to the Prime Material. There was a lot of hell interchange, apparently. The thing that stood out to me the most was on an evil playthrough when I was murdering them, one of them was listed as a Hellrider - the order of paladins and fights that have sworn to protect Elturel. He would have either been in Elturel when it disappeared or out in the hinterlands and turned into a refugee fleeing to BG. Neither of those make sense for a tiefling paladin of lathander, tyr, or torm even given the new alignment thing. And to have enough tieflings to warrant a "Rough Riders" style posse in a holy city? That existed well before no-alignment and therefore did not have tieflings spring into existence within its hallowed walls? So they either mislabeled something, or that doesn't make any sense to me that youd have tiefling hellriders.

IF theyre refugees...still theyre rare, the odds of a local communities of tieflings existing and hopping on the city before it came back or coming together individually within its wall. Just feels thin. Ive run DIA (DM), thats not how avernus really works. It is also not how tieflings work on the Prime.

Thats a long way of saying the tiefling refugees make no sense to me, I cannot justify them.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by Eugerome
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Apparently there is dialogue somewhere explaining where they came from. I admit I didn't hit all the dialogue I could, but from the sounds of it, this is a direct off-shoot of the end results of the Avernus campaign book from the TTRPG. I think there was a tiefling community that was surviving in Avernus somehow and they managed to escape to Faerun during the events of the campaign. I think...I'm uncertain of the specifics.


I think the leader of the Tieflings mentions that at some point if you help them.

The leader mentions something about it, but in the meantime you've already fought to save his community, and are having a polite conversation with him. That makes no sense. I'd be like, "DEVILS! KILL IT!"

BG3 should blatantly address this. Lae'zel is not from these parts, so she could be like, "Devils! They followed us from hell!" and you as the PC could then explain to her that these are Tieflings (not devils), and they are normal members of society.

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In one of my threads, I think it was the suggestion thread, I said for people who don't play DnD (probably a large group of individuals) to make a small animated cutscene (a la DoS cutscenes, animated but not too extensive) explaining the Avernus campaign, briefly. I don't play DnD and watched an hour video on Youtube that explained the entire campaign. It was a bit of a slog, but at least I get where this is coming from.

To start the game 100 years after the last one is fine, but there needs to a be a bridge for the people that don't play the tabletop included at the start so you can connect a bit better.

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Originally Posted by Mxiio
They reference Elturel repeatedly


Yes, but in the meantime you don't treat them as devils. There's no explanation as to why you're saving them, TALKING to them, not freaking out about them. Players need an immediate explanation when you encounter a Tiefling for the first time.

The problem is compounded because this first group of Tieflings DID come from hell. They know about it, they've been there... but they AREN'T devils? What's going on? I'm so confused... (you get the idea)

The first Tieflings I encountered was when freeing Lae'zel to add her to the party. It totally looks like she was captured by devils from hell. Have her misunderstand what they are, then the PC or Shadowheart could explain that they aren't what they seem, you simpleton! Give that encounter some depth and use it to teach the player what's going on.

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It's not like Tieflings are exclusively from the Hells, they simply have someone in their family who was. They've been around pretty much always, just not commonly in such a large group. If I recall, a bunch of arrogant High Elves were the first to summon devils to make stronger offspring i.e. Tieflings. - got a little out of hand and their entire civilization was burned to the ground eventually though.

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Yes, the racial identity and nuance seems to be a little lacking in the game. Every race is very human-washed, in the sense that you could replace their models for humans and nothing would change in the narrative. This also includes all of the elves in the druid grove.

Githyankis are well done, and goblins... Well, I have to say I find them weirdly endearing. They're cool too.

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Originally Posted by Goldberry
Yes, the racial identity and nuance seems to be a little lacking in the game. Every race is very human-washed, in the sense that you could replace their models for humans and nothing would change in the narrative. This also includes all of the elves in the druid grove.

Githyankis are well done, and goblins... Well, I have to say I find them weirdly endearing. They're cool too.


This. Most everyone acts like a human.
Also, playable goblins should be a thing.

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It wouldn't hurt to have a little more explanation of who and what Tieflings are, but you run into them right away and I don't see where it could fit in before that first encounter at the gate. I did think it was a little odd how normal the dialogs were with them, like the blacksmith guy. I haven't followed D&D very closely since the BG and IWD series and didn't know what they are. Still don't, actually.

I think what Larian is doing here is assuming that the niche group of hardcore D&D players will know what they are, and the much larger group of players who have never played or read up on D&D and buy the game anyway won't care. They'll just accept it as part of the Forgotten Realms location.

Those of us with a passing familiarity with D&D but not deep into it will scratch our heads and wonder what's going on, but we're not the prime audience I guess.

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My assumption was that when they were in Avernus that over time they were morphed from the energies of hell into Tieflings because all information I've seen on Elturel was that it was a largely human city, though I haven't finished reading the Descent into Avernus book

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Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Those of us with a passing familiarity with D&D but not deep into it will scratch our heads and wonder what's going on, but we're not the prime audience I guess.

Tieflings are the result of an individual of any humanoid race getting freaky with a devil or demon, the Tieflings in BG3 are all, so far, of the devil variety.

If you took a Lothsworn Drow and an Asmodeus Tiefling and asked a human which was scarier it's more than likely that they'd point to the Drow.

Following is an exert from the Players Handbook on Tieflings:
People tend to be suspicious of tieflings, assuming that their infernal heritage has left its mark on their personality and morality, not just their appearance. Shopkeepers keep a close eye on their goods when tieflings enter their stores, the town watch might follow a tiefling around for a while, and demagogues blame tieflings for strange happenings. The reality, though, is that a tiefling’s bloodline doesn’t affect his or her personality to any great degree. Years of dealing with mistrust does leave its mark on most tieflings, and they respond to it in different ways. Some choose to live up to the wicked stereotype, but others are virtuous. Most are simply very aware of how people respond to them. After dealing with this mistrust throughout youth, a tiefling often develops the ability to overcome prejudice through charm or intimidation.


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This is also about 200 years later. They have probably become more common since then.

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Originally Posted by Frumpkis
Those of us with a passing familiarity with D&D but not deep into it will scratch our heads and wonder what's going on, but we're not the prime audience I guess.

But fans of BG1 & BG2 are the prime audience, hence the name BG3. This would be very confusing to them.

But more importantly, even if you know nothing, BG3 itself sets up red-horned devils as monsters and enemies right at the beginning. It makes no sense to then treat them moments later like regular people. It's narrative schizophrenia.

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Originally Posted by Najrath
My assumption was that when they were in Avernus that over time they were morphed from the energies of hell into Tieflings because all information I've seen on Elturel was that it was a largely human city, though I haven't finished reading the Descent into Avernus book


Fiends are spawned in the hells, the abyss, or outer planes like gehenna. Devils are spawned from souls in the river styx and get promoted upwards and morph into other various types. Demons are created out of evil souls, chaotic energies, and the general malevolence of the infinite layers of the abyss. Tieflings are the offspring of one of the creatures breeding with (usually) a human. They have a fiendish heritage. There are no unwilling devils in hell, you cannot be unwillingly taken. Asmodeus, ruler of the hells and one of the ancients before the gods whos awakening will break the hells and take out one of the anchor points of all creation and create Armageddon and revert the universe back to its primal energies so he can do his thing again - yes that asmodeus, agreed to that with the angels of the upper realms in Mechanus that any souls given to devils were to be willing. Excep for atheists smile they go straight to Nessus for him to devour.

Anyway, tieflings are offspring.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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I agree that more explanation about the current state of the world might be helpful, but right now this seems like initial release of EA issues more than things that current incarnation of the game needs. I would say wait for now to see if it becomes more addressed in the future. Right now it's in no way important for you to know about Teiflings, Elturel, or any of this in order to play through what amount of the game we have.

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