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Originally Posted by odesseiron81
In one of my threads, I think it was the suggestion thread, I said for people who don't play DnD (probably a large group of individuals) to make a small animated cutscene (a la DoS cutscenes, animated but not too extensive) explaining the Avernus campaign, briefly. I don't play DnD and watched an hour video on Youtube that explained the entire campaign. It was a bit of a slog, but at least I get where this is coming from.

To start the game 100 years after the last one is fine, but there needs to a be a bridge for the people that don't play the tabletop included at the start so you can connect a bit better.

If anything, this thread shows that many players who've been through the first act still don't know what's up with the Tieflings. Or Decent Into Avernus. A graphical style intro narrative (like what you might see in Dragon Age with moving pictures) could serve this well. No need for a full-on CG movie.

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As someone that's pretty much up to speed with current 5e lore, I'd honestly never considered that tieflings hanging out were going to be confusing thing for some people. Huh.
Talking to the leader, and some other NPCs I think, reveals why this specific group of tieflings got there and their history and such. No general "Okay so this is how tieflings are regarded in this games universe..." type of thing tho. Considering that you, the player, can be a tiefling it would be pretty weird if an NPC suddenly started to explain your own racial lore to you.
Not sure what the solution to this problem is, but tiefling lore could probably be implemented into the dialogue before you get to the camp. The siblings who capture Lae'Zel could be a perfect opportunity to do some loredumping.

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For the encounter at Lae'zel, you are perfectly capable of attacking the Tieflings right away, so I see no problem there.

Before entering the grove, you see that humans seek help of the so-called devils. I think that's enough to allow a character to think I may just as well talk to these people before I cut their throats.
(Actually, this makes me want to check out what happens if you try to side with the Goblins during the initial grove attack. Will the Golbins stay hostile? But this is degressing from the topic, sorry)

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Also, as a side note:
I have no experience with DnD so far. I knew Tieflings were a thing and not (necessarily) bad, but that's about it. Yet, I didn't question what was going on in he game at all. I also feel it's handed to you pretty straight forward... The leader talks to you right away about how they are refugees from a war in hell. Later on, I can find letters that talk about more hoards of refugees (in the toll building). ( I may mistake two different issues for one here, but I don't think it's relevant to the point.)

I don't understand why I need to know everything related to a plot before I play a game? If a completely new game (with no related franchise) threw information like this at me, I wouldn't be confused as to why I didn't get further information on a conflict beforehand. I would try to find out more about it by playing the game. Do you?
Therefore, I am against a prequel summary at the start of the game. The cutscenes at the start of the game are more than long enough as they are. After all, I want to PLAY a game, not watch a movie before I can get started.

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For anyone who's read the Drizzt novels, it's pretty well established that the people of the Forgotten Realms freak out when they see someone who looks like a monster (see the reactions to Drizzt). It's quite jarring that Tieflings are seen as anything but KOS monsters. Based on those books, you'd never even start a conversation with one. You'd just shoot the Tiefling on sight from long range (or flee).

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Originally Posted by Traycor
For anyone who's read the Drizzt novels, it's pretty well established that the people of the Forgotten Realms freak out when they see someone who looks like a monster (see the reactions to Drizzt). It's quite jarring that Tieflings are seen as anything but KOS monsters. Based on those books, you'd never even start a conversation with one. You'd just shoot the Tiefling on sight from long range (or flee).


The books are informed by the D&D lore, but they aren't canon. Parts of them became canon, but it isnt a reference set. I see a lot of people point to Salvatore when it comes to certain subjects and its just not a reliable source. Baldur's Gate wouldnt care about them. Like I said earlier, it makes no sense theyre involved with Elturel at all. BG, though, has drow, orcs, all sorts of crap. Depends on what city youre in for the reactions you'll get.

The other thing to take with a grain of salt is that they are going to normalize playable races. Minotaurs are horrific, cannibal, monsters from the abyss who worship baphomet. Yet, people can play them and in most home games wont get any crap for it because everyone is an individual and can choose their own path. So, the populace reacts the same way. Theyre not going to break your balls over the fact you chose an interesting race, so they wont break the NPCs either other than some #mildRacism

imo

Last edited by Orbax; 16/10/20 10:00 PM.

What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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Originally Posted by Traycor
For anyone who's read the Drizzt novels, it's pretty well established that the people of the Forgotten Realms freak out when they see someone who looks like a monster (see the reactions to Drizzt). It's quite jarring that Tieflings are seen as anything but KOS monsters. Based on those books, you'd never even start a conversation with one. You'd just shoot the Tiefling on sight from long range (or flee).


Well, people freak out when they see Drizzt because he is a drow, no because he looks like a monster (and I don't think drow look like monster to be honest). If anything, those tieflings and other NPCs should be more afraid of the drow PC.

Orbax #702082 16/10/20 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Traycor
For anyone who's read the Drizzt novels, it's pretty well established that the people of the Forgotten Realms freak out when they see someone who looks like a monster (see the reactions to Drizzt). It's quite jarring that Tieflings are seen as anything but KOS monsters. Based on those books, you'd never even start a conversation with one. You'd just shoot the Tiefling on sight from long range (or flee).


The books are informed by the D&D lore, but they aren't canon.

It just seems like a strange contradiction if you came to the FR via the novels.

Totally agree that any PC race will be normalized. But I do think it at least warrants an explanation when BG3 sets up red-horned devils as actual devils from hell. A few lines of dialogue from Lae'zel when you first encounter the Tieflings at her cage would work. (Or she could say something in the Prologue if the PC is a Tiefling) It's a fairly easy problem to address and it makes the story feel more realistic instead of hand-waving a glaring plot hole.

Saryle #702090 16/10/20 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Saryle
Originally Posted by Traycor
For anyone who's read the Drizzt novels, it's pretty well established that the people of the Forgotten Realms freak out when they see someone who looks like a monster (see the reactions to Drizzt). It's quite jarring that Tieflings are seen as anything but KOS monsters. Based on those books, you'd never even start a conversation with one. You'd just shoot the Tiefling on sight from long range (or flee).


Well, people freak out when they see Drizzt because he is a drow, no because he looks like a monster (and I don't think drow look like monster to be honest). If anything, those tieflings and other NPCs should be more afraid of the drow PC.

To clarify, it's not that he looks like a monster. It's that he looks like something they perceive to be a monster. In BG3 you start the game fighting devils in hell. These would absolutely be perceived as monsters. If the PC wants to be open-minded, that's totally fine. But the game should at least acknowledge this inconsistency. That's good writing.

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Originally Posted by Traycor
To clarify, it's not that he looks like a monster. It's that he looks like something they perceive to be a monster. In BG3 you start the game fighting devils in hell. These would absolutely be perceived as monsters. If the PC wants to be open-minded, that's totally fine. But the game should at least acknowledge this inconsistency. That's good writing.

I just think that majority of people in Forgotten realms know the difference between tieflings and devils and tieflings are not something strange and scary to them. They probably would treat them with disrespect and not fear. But I agree that more dialogue options would always be nice, you can roleplay your character however you want. I actually think NPCs don't freak out enough when they see a drow lol

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You have the option to attack them right away. Just hold control and aim your cursor over them, then left click.

Fisher #702123 16/10/20 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Fisher
You have the option to attack them right away. Just hold control and aim your cursor over them, then left click.

I'm talking about writing and story. They're just treated as everyday people, which makes no sense. Plus, I would assume that unlike Bugbears, if I go around slaughtering Tieflings, I'll be considered a psychopath murderer.

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Originally Posted by Traycor
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Traycor
For anyone who's read the Drizzt novels, it's pretty well established that the people of the Forgotten Realms freak out when they see someone who looks like a monster (see the reactions to Drizzt). It's quite jarring that Tieflings are seen as anything but KOS monsters. Based on those books, you'd never even start a conversation with one. You'd just shoot the Tiefling on sight from long range (or flee).


The books are informed by the D&D lore, but they aren't canon.

It just seems like a strange contradiction if you came to the FR via the novels.

Totally agree that any PC race will be normalized. But I do think it at least warrants an explanation when BG3 sets up red-horned devils as actual devils from hell. A few lines of dialogue from Lae'zel when you first encounter the Tieflings at her cage would work. (Or she could say something in the Prologue if the PC is a Tiefling) It's a fairly easy problem to address and it makes the story feel more realistic instead of hand-waving a glaring plot hole.


The Drizzt novels are set about 150, maybe 200 years prior to the current time line. In that time, the drow and tieflings have become much more well known as people. The Sundering that happened during 4e STILL happened and that increased the number of things like Dragonborn and Tieflings. Also there were a ton of drow that were re-welcomed by the elven gods, hence the existence of Seldarine drow and they are now a significant and open minority on the surface.

Also, tieflings never had the kill on sight reactions that drow did. They were a bit distrusted and in small communities may get run out of town, but there's not a history of tieflings coming in the night to kill and raid for slaves as happens with drow, so much less immediate fear to tieflings than with drow due to the fact that most people know of a place where Lloth-sworn drow performed some atrocity.

So many tieflings in one place would make people suspicious though....and that's probably why they have their own refugee caravan and aren't with all the other Eltrugard refugees.

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Okay, I don't know if this was put in the game recently or not, but right after the fight with the adventurers, if you follow the dialogue tree with Zevlor he'll tell you about The Descent and Elturel basically casting out the tieflings of the city.

So the info about the reason for all the tieflings being here is available and it's in one of the most immediately obvious conversations. It's just a bit buried which is common for lore/backstory bits that are common-knowledge for existing fans of the setting.

Last edited by Thrythlind; 18/10/20 03:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by Traycor
Originally Posted by Fisher
You have the option to attack them right away. Just hold control and aim your cursor over them, then left click.

I'm talking about writing and story. They're just treated as everyday people, which makes no sense. Plus, I would assume that unlike Bugbears, if I go around slaughtering Tieflings, I'll be considered a psychopath murderer.

By who? I was walking around the druid grove and saw half of the druids calling them devilspawn, cursed, devils, etc. Kagha called Arabella a pestilence. Halsin and Rath are the only ones who are friendly to them, the rest either want them to leave or don't comment on them.

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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Originally Posted by Traycor
Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Traycor
For anyone who's read the Drizzt novels, it's pretty well established that the people of the Forgotten Realms freak out when they see someone who looks like a monster (see the reactions to Drizzt). It's quite jarring that Tieflings are seen as anything but KOS monsters. Based on those books, you'd never even start a conversation with one. You'd just shoot the Tiefling on sight from long range (or flee).


The books are informed by the D&D lore, but they aren't canon.

It just seems like a strange contradiction if you came to the FR via the novels.

Totally agree that any PC race will be normalized. But I do think it at least warrants an explanation when BG3 sets up red-horned devils as actual devils from hell. A few lines of dialogue from Lae'zel when you first encounter the Tieflings at her cage would work. (Or she could say something in the Prologue if the PC is a Tiefling) It's a fairly easy problem to address and it makes the story feel more realistic instead of hand-waving a glaring plot hole.


The Drizzt novels are set about 150, maybe 200 years prior to the current time line. In that time, the drow and tieflings have become much more well known as people. The Sundering that happened during 4e STILL happened and that increased the number of things like Dragonborn and Tieflings. Also there were a ton of drow that were re-welcomed by the elven gods, hence the existence of Seldarine drow and they are now a significant and open minority on the surface.

Also, tieflings never had the kill on sight reactions that drow did. They were a bit distrusted and in small communities may get run out of town, but there's not a history of tieflings coming in the night to kill and raid for slaves as happens with drow, so much less immediate fear to tieflings than with drow due to the fact that most people know of a place where Lloth-sworn drow performed some atrocity.

So many tieflings in one place would make people suspicious though....and that's probably why they have their own refugee caravan and aren't with all the other Eltrugard refugees.


The latest Drizzt Novel (Relentless) take place during 1488.
Descent to Avernus campaign takes place in 1494. (Which means BG3 takes place just after the events of Descent to Avernus)
Neverwinter Nights 2, takes place around 1374. One of your companions was Neeshka, a Tiefling from Neverwinter.
In Thay, many thousands of Tieflings were slaves, and then around 1377 Szass Tam took over, driving many Tieflings into becoming refugees.
Netheril Empire returned from the Shadowfel in 1372.
Spell Plague happened in 1385, Neverwinter got blown up in 1451 after adventurers woke the Primordial in Gauntlgrym.

Basically, there's an untold number of Tieflings spread across the region from a number of different cultures. There would be traveling caravans of Tieflings just roaming Faerun looking for trade, adventurers, small villages that may have formed because other cities/villages didn't want them. (In the Drizzt novels, we start seeing "Halfling" villages pop up because of alit the height-ists in Faerun.)

The Tieflings we meet, coming from Avernus is very suspicious, and given the context of Baldur's Gate, it doesn't surprise me that we'd have to choose between "Lawful Evil" and "Chaotic Evil".

If anything I'm surprised they're allowing other Tiefling bloodlines when the Lore specifically states that Asmodeus literally screwed all Tieflings over by changing their bloodlines... Also speaks volumes that the ending to "Avernus" they went with, may not be the "Best" outcome, as there is still a Zariel bloodline.

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The tieflings in the refugee camp seem to be mostly of the "Unaligned" or "Neutral" variety, as in they mostly seem to be average people without any real intense moral compasses...and the dialogue from Zevlor may imply that they were citizens of Elturel before the Descent and exiled afterwards.

I'd say that's not great for a country famed for paladins, but then neither is other spoilery stuff I could say that happened regarding Descent.

Last edited by Thrythlind; 18/10/20 05:06 PM.
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