Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#701947 16/10/20 08:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
K
Kolvaer Offline OP
apprentice
OP Offline
apprentice
K
Joined: Oct 2020
According to Larian, this game is massive, and also according to Larian (if I'm remembering right) this game has a level cap at 10ish.

It's Early Access with just the first act and we're already getting to level 4? It seems like we'll max out and have at least half the game to go.

Leveling up in D&D IMO is a big deal - it's a celebratory event that should feel earned and highly anticipated.

So far in BG3, leveling happens so fast it that it doesn't feel special.

Hard to give a solid actionable suggestion here, since I'm not a developer not am I working on the game and know the intended scope of the final product.

Kolvaer #701955 16/10/20 08:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
The first few levels of DnD kinda need to go by fast. At level 1 and 2 you have so few HP that it's extremely easy just to die from being unlucky. A lot of DnD games start their players at level 3 for this reason.

But aside from that, yeah there is enough exp in act 1 to get us to level 6 apparently. That's a bit much.

Kolvaer #701966 16/10/20 08:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
+1 to that - it seems that it will be balanced a little bit. Definitely you could up to lvl 6 at the end of act 1.

Kolvaer #701973 16/10/20 08:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
I normally start my D&D parties at level 3. Its 900xp total to get from level 1-3 and 1&2 arent fun. If you do xp based leveling ...big difference the further you get. I ran a 2 year 1-2x a week campaign and they ended at level 11.

Character Advancement
Experience Points Level
0 1
300 2
900 3
2,700 4
6,500 5
14,000 6
23,000 7
34,000 8
48,000 9
64,000 10
85,000 11
100,000 12
120,000 13
140,000 14
165,000 15
195,000 16
225,000 17
265,000 18
305,000 19
355,000 20

You can see that you need 126,000 total XP for a 6 man party to move them from 10-11. A CR22, Ancient Red Dragon, is 62,000xp. Those are end of campaign level fights. A CR10 YOUNG red is 5,900xp. The party would need to find and slay 22 Young Dragons, 7 Adults, or 2.5 ancients to level. When you are typically fighting more "yard trash" creatures youre talking 30-40 challenging and 70 middling things that are part of a harder monsters coterie. Thats for 1 level.

So early levels are fasssst and 3 is a milestone because of schools, archetypes, styles, etc... for most classes. at level 5 you get 2 attacks and the game changes. Getting to 3 - fast. Gettin to 5 medium. from there out its a long journey to 8 and 9 and 10 just kind of stretch. That makes it hard for multiclass people because even 1 level of multiclass means you miss feat / ASI at level 8 because its CLASS level not CHARACTER level that gets you the every-4-level boons.

Having it only to level 10 means they need to make the stretch interesting, Im not sure how theyll do that. as a DM is means a lot of work on politics, social stuff, new environments, groups...its everything that ISNT combat that draws people in at that point.


What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
Muldeh #701980 16/10/20 08:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
Originally Posted by Muldeh
The first few levels of DnD kinda need to go by fast. At level 1 and 2 you have so few HP that it's extremely easy just to die from being unlucky.

It's not just sparing to the player a quick death, either. The early levels are notoriously... Lacking in tactical options, which makes them vaguely unexciting compared to what will follow.
It's almost universal opinion that D&D is at its best in the range between level 5 and 14, with the lower end being "where classes start to come online" and the upper one being just antecedent to the point power creep starts to break things a bit too much.

Incidentally that's more or less where we can expect this game to end, given that Larian already confirmed their intended cap is NOT level 10 anymore, since it turned out they had too much of an overabundance of content to stick there.



Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Kolvaer #702044 16/10/20 09:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
Bear in mind that a huge cRPG like BG3 needs faster levelling than PnP. Part of why D&D games contain an insane number of enemies compared to PnP is simply to do with pacing. A computer game has different pacing needs than a table top game, there has to be enough combat to keep people hooked and there has to be enough character progression to make players feel rewarded. This is why the idea of a level 10 cap for BG3 was highly debated when first announced. This combined with the expansion of the scope of the game in terms of story, sidequests and environments as well as the resultant expected increase to average play time and the play time of a completionist's run is why Larian went from a level 10 cap to a "somewhere between 10 and 15, we haven't decided yet" level cap. Given the time taken to hit level 4 I can foresee a fair amount of play to go from 9 to 10 and honestly 10 levels of progression in 100+ hours of play is really, really................ really slow for a computer game, in terms of a player reward loop. BG3 may even be slower progression than that, so it's definitely a bad idea to slow down character progression any further. The levelling pace in BG1 and the lack of character progress is one of the reasons why a lot of modern gamers never finished BG:EE along with dated visual aspects and the complexity/counter-intuitive nature of the ruleset the game used. BG2 had a considerably faster rate of progression and had fewer complaints in that regard, but I've known plenty of people (all rpg fans) who tried it for the first time in recent years and had that same complaint about SOA, it wouldn't surprise me at all if modern gamers are even more sensitive to slower progression rates than those of use that grew up with those older cRPGs or those of us that play a lot of table top 5E.

Besides, imo, the higher level I can reach by the end of my first playthrough the better. High level is where all the really cool stuff is anyway, more interesting plots, more interesting enemies, more interesting abilities and builds, more interesting locations. I'll stop at that though before I spark the never ending high lvl vs low lvl debate.

Kolvaer #702049 16/10/20 09:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
A
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
A
Joined: Oct 2020
Larian have stated that leveling in the first few levels should be fast and then slow down. They have confirmed that the level cap will likely be above 10


I sometimes use thought experiments. I don't necessarily believe in every idea I post for discussion on this forum
Kolvaer #702053 16/10/20 09:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
P
member
Offline
member
P
Joined: Oct 2020
Maybe I'm the odd one out here, but I don't mind a slower leveling progression in a D&D-based computer game. Give me time to enjoy the features and power of each level and make the increase feel like an accomplishment.

Kolvaer #702085 16/10/20 10:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jan 2009
Originally Posted by Kolvaer
According to Larian, this game is massive, and also according to Larian (if I'm remembering right) this game has a level cap at 10ish.

It's Early Access with just the first act and we're already getting to level 4? It seems like we'll max out and have at least half the game to go.

Leveling up in D&D IMO is a big deal - it's a celebratory event that should feel earned and highly anticipated.

So far in BG3, leveling happens so fast it that it doesn't feel special.

Hard to give a solid actionable suggestion here, since I'm not a developer not am I working on the game and know the intended scope of the final product.



I think Larian actually said somewhere, in one of the pre-release streams that they're increasing the level cap because the quick leveling is more interesting for players.

Kolvaer #773474 17/05/21 11:39 PM
Joined: May 2021
D
stranger
Offline
stranger
D
Joined: May 2021
I'm all for slow leveling. I'm the kind of masochist that slows leveling in TES games to 1/4 speed. I'm also for balancing the challenge around the actual CR follows the source material. I'm for withdrawal being a viable and necessary tactic when things get tough. I love challenge and crunch and I welcome a closer adherence to RAW.

Kolvaer #773476 17/05/21 11:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
Personally, the first few levels in 5e are meant to be fast, they are the levels where you start to get your class features and your class starts to properly deviate from the others. Leveling should however slow quite a bit after the fourth or fifth level as the exp required has increased a lot.

Kolvaer #773478 18/05/21 01:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2021
L
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
L
Joined: Jan 2021
I hope the leveling slows down. Already in EA we are reaching the point where many of the stronger enemies from BG I are getting out-leveled. before we even leave the starting area. Remember those Ankhegs that would absolutely wreck you at lower levels in BG I? Those are CR 2 in 5e. A lot of interesting enemies are concentrated at the lower levels of D&D play that we are zooming right past.


Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5