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#726819 03/11/20 10:53 AM
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Its simple guys, this is an EA they want us to ACCESS THE CAMP AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE so any bugs there can be found and reported, so yeah i'm pretty sure the rest spamming MUST BE CHANGED AT SOME POINT, but doing that right now, would be simply counter productive. so please stop spamming threads about the subjet XD

Last edited by brunotavm; 03/11/20 10:54 AM.
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That's great. Thank you to overflow the forum with this usefull kind of thread.

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you are welcome smile

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but seriously, since the camp will be a central part of the game, i think it seems better they test things there at the early early access, than release something broken at the end, so yeah spam rests, spam tests

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Sorry OP, but this could have just been in the main discussion regarding the rest system.
Do Mods have the power to merge threads?

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We already have enough topics about it, there is no need to break down discussions into a million smaller ones.

Too late...

Last edited by Rhobar121; 03/11/20 11:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by brunotavm
Its simple guys, this is an EA they want us to ACCESS THE CAMP AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE so any bugs there can be found and reported, so yeah i'm pretty sure the rest spamming MUST BE CHANGED AT SOME POINT, but doing that right now, would be simply counter productive. so please stop spamming threads about the subjet XD


Wrong.
Devs do not change a mechanic to push testers into a specific direction as that would mean they change the wrong thing.
What you see is what you get.

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I completely disagree.

Breaking a core part of the DnD game balance just to test something seems utterly stupid. I like the camp, but having so much of the story progress there is a problem in my eyes, since it's also not somwhere you are supposed to go all that often (once per day in DnD 5e).

It throws off game balance, and makes for odd story telling at times.

So if it's "working as intended" to test it, then it shows a huge weakness in the choice of story progression.

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Originally Posted by Aurgelmir
I completely disagree.

Breaking a core part of the DnD game balance just to test something seems utterly stupid. I like the camp, but having so much of the story progress there is a problem in my eyes, since it's also not somwhere you are supposed to go all that often (once per day in DnD 5e).

It throws off game balance, and makes for odd story telling at times.

So if it's "working as intended" to test it, then it shows a huge weakness in the choice of story progression.


Is their actually much story progression, aside from Raphael and the dreams, that takes place in the camp? I am under the impression that most of the camp stuff is related to the companions (which I don't really consider story progression since it's entirely optional).

I'm inclined to agree though, it seems weird to have story progression tied to using the camp.

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I do love "It's EA so just shut up, they don't want or need feedback" argument.

I guess Larian should just close these forums.

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Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
I do love "It's EA so just shut up, they don't want or need feedback" argument.

I guess Larian should just close these forums.


i don't mean that at all, and i've tried to make it clear in the title and the text XD , i just think that right now, the gains of enabling this spamming (more camp data for analysis) outweights the cost (broken experience in a EA), it's just the first month of EA release, a few months by now if that is not changed i will surely join the rant hehe

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That doesn't make sense and would just waste the feedback and telemetry they're getting. Encouraging rest spamming (if that is not the actual goal) ruins all their combat balance feedback, and all their story pacing feedback.

#730163 08/11/20 10:34 AM
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The issue of Long Rest being too available has come up in a few posts, and I mostly shrugged it off as putting timers and limits on players felt too obstructive to me.
But....As I was doing another playthrough I noticed the bird in the druid camp that Nettie is helping has a debuff called "Exhausted"

Tooltip is as follows:

"You are exhausted. The less you rest, the worse the exhaustion is going to get. Exhaustion is measured in six levels. Higher levels of exhaustion accumulate penalties from lower levels. Finishing a long rest reduces EXHAUSTION level by 1."

So it appears Larian has some sort of mechanic in mind for "not" resting frequently enough, maybe they had something in mind for resting too frequently to address some of the concerns brought up.

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Yeah I noticed that one, too. It was in BG as well. I think it makes sense. However resting before every fight I think is stupid, too, especially since it takes you out of the current situation on another screen and then back again. It is a time sink. Also there is no time passing in the world we play in.
Limiting the amount of rests is not a good idea in my book, because managing your resources in a fight is already hard, doing so over multiple encounters is cumbersome and inconsistent. I prefer either the PoE concept where most skills are per encounter and only a few require rests. I would also prefer to have all skills and abilities ready in every encounter, makes the game perfectly consistent, which I think is the core priniciple of having a good game flow. Right now Shadowheart ranges from an exceptional valuable companion to rather useless depending on the status of your resting.
In any case it seems they have something planned for it, and I guess exhaustion is one of those issues, you also have the short rest option, which is now obsolete, since you can rest with no penalty. Also Larian advances story elements mostly in the camp, so if you do not rest you might miss crucial stuff, which is another odd choice.

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I hate how camping is tied so heavily to the narrative and dialogue scenes, and how you can miss a lot of stuff if you don't rest ENOUGH. It seems that Larian really WANTS us to rest after every 1 (or 2 at the most, hence only one short rest) encounter. Which I guess would be fine, if they didn't have a story that suggests that we shouldn't be wasting time.

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I hate how camping is tied so heavily to the narrative and dialogue scenes, and how you can miss a lot of stuff if you don't rest ENOUGH. It seems that Larian really WANTS us to rest after every 1 (or 2 at the most, hence only one short rest) encounter. Which I guess would be fine, if they didn't have a story that suggests that we shouldn't be wasting time.


Exactly. "You can lie to the character as much as you need to for a good story, but do not lie to a player - do you want us to immerse or metagame".

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It's a normal D&D mechanic:

Quote
Exhaustion

Some Special Abilities and environmental Hazards, such as starvation and the long-­term Effects of freezing or scorching temperatures, can lead to a Special condition called exhaustion. Exhaustion is measured in six levels. An Effect can give a creature one or more levels of exhaustion, as specified in the effect’s description.
Exhaustion Effects Level Effect
1 Disadvantage on Ability Checks
2 Speed halved
3 Disadvantage on Attack rolls and Saving Throws
4 Hit point maximum halved
5 Speed reduced to 0
6 Death

If an already exhausted creature suffers another Effect that causes exhaustion, its current level of exhaustion increases by the amount specified in the effect’s description.

A creature suffers the Effect of its current level of exhaustion as well as all lower levels. For example, a creature suffering level 2 exhaustion has its speed halved and has disadvantage on Ability Checks.

An Effect that removes exhaustion reduces its level as specified in the effect’s description, with all exhaustion Effects ending if a creature’s exhaustion level is reduced below 1.

Finishing a Long Rest reduces a creature’s exhaustion level by 1, provided that the creature has also ingested some food and drink.


Normally in table top games DM's will apply this to players who spend too much time without taking a long rest, though considering that players can take any number of rests in this game, it's a very easy penalty to avoid unless they put restrictions on resting.

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Point being, they have it in the game but it isn't used. Not that it is an ingenious mechanic that was special to this game. The feedback about the use of camping/long rest/short rest prompted ideas for gameplay mechanics to encourage usage. At the moment it is all arbitrary and might as well long rest every encounter.

Upon seeing this debuff it reveals the developers have/had ideas for long rest/short rest mechanics but we have not seen much. So by bringing up the existence of the debuff I wanted to provide those that have concerns something to discuss.

So being a normal D&D mechanic is fine and good for you to know about, but how is Larian making distinctions here.

Relationship/Story/Quest/Character Development(tadpole special abilities) being tied to long resting is frustrating, as mentioned by Firesnakearies, because there is no obvious feedback mechanism to prompt the players to long rest. My first play through I didn't rest until the end in the Underdark, because I was worried about running out of time, causing me to miss out on a lot of plot development.

Long rest being readily available cheapens short rest, which is a valid complaint. Also in turn devalues mechanics that return on short rest like warlock spell slots and the like, again a valid complaint on mechanics.

Suggestions on long rest being limited to checkpoint locations or in town have come up.
or
Debuff for resting recently to prevent long resting too rapidly (personally not a fan of).
or
Requiring short rests prior to long rests.
or
Time progression on long rest with day/night cycles and duration based events (take too long and the grove gets attacked, or tadpole pops out of your head, or something of the like).

So back to the original post....."oh that is interesting, they have a debuff for not resting, makes you wonder how Larian will manage the resting cycle or did they scrap that idea".

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Originally Posted by Firesnakearies
I hate how camping is tied so heavily to the narrative and dialogue scenes, and how you can miss a lot of stuff if you don't rest ENOUGH. It seems that Larian really WANTS us to rest after every 1 (or 2 at the most, hence only one short rest) encounter. Which I guess would be fine, if they didn't have a story that suggests that we shouldn't be wasting time.


I don't like this either.
It's fine the first time I guess but later it just becomes a matter of resting to trigger the story.

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I know Larian has already stated there would not be a day night cycle but it really creates a terrible disconnect for exhaustion. Other games you atleast see the passage of time, but here it just feels like you are required to rest after every fight -only- for narrative reasons and nothing else. If we’d atleast see that we’ve been adventuring for a light cycle, some believability would exist, instead of the entire mechanic being forced.

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