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I love how this thread has evolved from joke post to serious philosophical discussion about alignments back to jokes, good stuff.

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Originally Posted by Topper
Have none of you read Snuff by Terry Pratchett!!!! smile And yes, that image is cute. Gobbo's are not cute. Are they?? I dont know any more.


People likely have read it yet tend to be rather quiet about it. Too much poo, snot and toenails. But, yeah it catches the essence of what we are discussing here. laugh

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I have most of his books smile Apart from some of the later ones about football and trains etc. This has indeed become an interesting discussion. I have a problem with cutefying DnD creatures though.. Where does it end? Aww poor mindflayers, just doing what they do poor wee things.... :O No!!!!!!! They are monsters!!!! Kill them with fire!!!!! And so on.

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Originally Posted by VincentNZ
Originally Posted by Topper
Have none of you read Snuff by Terry Pratchett!!!! smile And yes, that image is cute. Gobbo's are not cute. Are they?? I dont know any more.


People likely have read it yet tend to be rather quiet about it. Too much poo, snot and toenails. But, yeah it catches the essence of what we are discussing here. laugh

If I find a piano in one of the Goblin camps, I shall be highly suspicious.

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And yet, they have ...poetry..... One step away from stringing words into song.

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Originally Posted by Topper
I have most of his books smile Apart from some of the later ones about football and trains etc. This has indeed become an interesting discussion. I have a problem with cutefying DnD creatures though.. Where does it end? Aww poor mindflayers, just doing what they do poor wee things.... :O No!!!!!!! They are monsters!!!! Kill them with fire!!!!! And so on.

Steam and Unseen Academicals were good, but a slight shift of gear. They were evidently books that Pterry felt the need to write due to his own interest in the subjects, but you could easily skip them and not miss out on the wider Discworld Lore.

As for rehabilitation of fantasy monsters; yes, I think it is a dangerous slope to start on. If you have 'humanised' your main evil race, then your next Evil needs to be demonstrably worse. I prefer to give my campaign monsters good old-fashioned human prejudices and flaws, without making them human. In my GURPS Fantasy campaign, you can try to negotiate with goblins but they will likely just laugh and eat you - they see all other living things as food. Orcs are more 'civilised' and will trade, but are highly clannish and xenophobic and will start a fight at a moment's notice with the slightest excuse.

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Originally Posted by Topper
I have most of his books smile Apart from some of the later ones about football and trains etc. This has indeed become an interesting discussion. I have a problem with cutefying DnD creatures though.. Where does it end? Aww poor mindflayers, just doing what they do poor wee things.... :O No!!!!!!! They are monsters!!!! Kill them with fire!!!!! And so on.



It doesn't have to be about cutifying them, just provide more context for why certain races are the way they are. Think about goblins specifically, their society is based entirely on survival. They have to be sneaky and cunning to not get eaten or smashed by everyone else. In comparison with the average humanoid nation goblins are at a massive disadvantage, hence why they'll group up with other monsters or evil leaning sorts for protection.

The goblins in BG3 aren't mindless killers, at several points in the game they have the opportunity to attack you but go for threats first instead, they will fight if they have to but generally seem to want to avoid it if they can.

They aren't good, but I would hesitate to call them totally evil either. I mean, Wyll for example tries to be pretty charming, but when the goblins come up he goes full on genocide mode. xD Truly man is the real monster. x)

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Originally Posted by Sadurian
Originally Posted by Topper
I have most of his books smile Apart from some of the later ones about football and trains etc. This has indeed become an interesting discussion. I have a problem with cutefying DnD creatures though.. Where does it end? Aww poor mindflayers, just doing what they do poor wee things.... :O No!!!!!!! They are monsters!!!! Kill them with fire!!!!! And so on.

Steam and Unseen Academicals were good, but a slight shift of gear. They were evidently books that Pterry felt the need to write due to his own interest in the subjects, but you could easily skip them and not miss out on the wider Discworld Lore.

As for rehabilitation of fantasy monsters; yes, I think it is a dangerous slope to start on. If you have 'humanised' your main evil race, then your next Evil needs to be demonstrably worse. I prefer to give my campaign monsters good old-fashioned human prejudices and flaws, without making them human. In my GURPS Fantasy campaign, you can try to negotiate with goblins but they will likely just laugh and eat you - they see all other living things as food. Orcs are more 'civilised' and will trade, but are highly clannish and xenophobic and will start a fight at a moment's notice with the slightest excuse.


Well, you coul argue the major plot point of the last books was the whole humanization of orcs and goblins thing. I was not a fan, but I got the gist of it, and I think it is worth noting. In the end, how do you find out about others if you do not ask nor try to understand?

There is this secluded tribe on the Andaman islands, just off the coast of India, that will attack anyone that comes close to them. They have been left alone for decades until two years ago an American got killed trying to talk to them about god. They are hostile on sight. Some tribes in South America are similar as well and might raid lumbercamps even. Japanese Holdouts after WWII also either lived isolatory and secluded or showed aggressive behaviour years after the war was over. Now obviously the right thing is not to annihilate these tribes and people, but to either leave them be or talk to them so one can come to some form of understanding. I do know that these comparisons are a bit shaky, but it begs the question if anyone ever saw it from the POV of the goblins or tried to understand what they are all about.

This rehabilitation happens all the time, though in many series and in real life. Former adversaries become neutral, become new allies, even if a mutual understanding was outrageous a couple of years ago. Again, 100 years in the past, the Bhaalspawn had a Goblin companion. Drow seem to have little issues walking above ground, except some small remarks and so forth. So it is nothing out of the ordinary to at least question their motives, yet there isn't really anyone asking these questions, beside Volo maybe.

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Very fine points all. Do we need bad guys? Do we need something to kill???? Thats what it comes down to yeah? If we look for and find good, reason, purpose in everything, dont we essentially find......God? I'm far from religious but is that not the benchmark for morality?

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Originally Posted by Finnius
1. Since when did pixels on a screen become "real"?

2. What is the definition of "role-playing"?

3. If I accidentally or purposely have my character walk into a bonfire...should that character be arrested for attempted suicide? Should I, as the directing party, immediately be arrested for attempted murder?

This thread is funny...and ridiculous. Nobody is "killing" anyone.

I understand about immersion into a fiction...sure...but when you start applying our Earth societal morals and systems of belief onto a fantasy setting that obviously does not behave or share the same ruleset (as the above poster said)...then YOU are breaking the role-playing.

Its a morale thing.. has nothing to do with pixels, humans are either good or evil, you wont change that.

Originally Posted by Verte
If not the 'true soul' business those gobbos would probably kill our little party of adventurers. And then kick Laezel's body making her nose even more flat. It is really simple choice for me.

Which is understandable really, if i met our companions in real life i'd kill them all on the spot as well.. and i'd be doing the world a justice, way more than killing some poor goblins.. Our companions are the most evil scum you'd ever meet, make a few goblins seem down right pleasant.

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Originally Posted by Topper
People take this game way to seriously smile I want my fantasy detached from reality. I want stuff that offends people and makes them realise this genre of entertainment is probably not for them. Its fantasy, its not real..... Not everything in life has to represent a view or attitude or position in real life.


Sigh. You're missing the point.

It's not about "realism". It's about "immersion". Two very different things. Just because it't not real doesn't mean you can just go "Add anything in". It has to make sense.

A unircorn shitting muffins in Borderlands makes sense because that's the game it is.

But do that here... Well, if it's very cleverly done, maybe. But you know what I mean.

Fantasy exists BECAUSE of reality. Because people suffered and got traumatised and managed to turn those bad situations around into fun and games. But it's not always fun and games. So why should fantasy be any different?

The reason you don't want real merged with fantasy is because of people in REAL life having weak stomachs. But maybe that's exactly why it should be mixed. It's called oppression. We want our fun stuff and that should be fun as far as "real" is concerned.

Here's the thing. Real life people with weak stomachs go out of their way to make sure it's NOT fine. This makes it impossible to separate the two at times. You have to take sales figures into account. What "most people tend to enjoy and get put off by". And then you got the law poking it's ugly nose into your business. "This is fine. That's fine. I decide for you what should be enjoyed."

Personally I say "I got an iron stomach." I make more fun out of dark events in online roleplay (and real life for that matter. Both). It's given me a very good imagination.

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Goblins? Kobolds? Gnomes? ; )


I don't speak english well, but I try my best. Ty
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Agreed, and what really annoyed me about this questline is how heavy handedly Larian's writers railroad the player into supporting the Tieflings and turning against ALL the druids except Rath (that most tiresome of politically correct entities, the "noble majestic Black") and Halsin.

This IS a real life situation; because it's an example of how people are manipulated by media. Also if you've lived in Larian's Germany, you would realize that the Tieflngs here in this game (as opposed to Tieflings in D&D in general!) are stand ins for a real world Europe's despised and self excluded real world groups, particularly Europe's Roma (Gypsies).

Has anyone noticed that "the Druids" have and are providing the Tieflings with already scarce food as well as shelter from the Tiefs numerous enemies, only to be rewarded with theft of multiple items, including the "Idol" of Silvanus. It's an "idol", they're idol worshipping Pagans, they don't value an "effigy" or another more neutrally named entity.

Those Tieflings would have been slaughtered by goblinoids or hostile Humanoids were it not for the Druids' succor, and what do the Druids get in return for their charity and protection for criminal ingrates? We are repeatedly reminded that the Tieflings "would be slaughtered outside the Grove, because they are not fighters". To conceal the glaringly obvious fact that the Tieflings owe their lives to Druid compassion, the writers have Zelvor lead the defenses when Aradin flees to the Grove for shelter, even though many Druids are not engaged in "the ritual" (including Kagha, Loie, Marcoryl, Rath, Apikusis, Arron), and realistically would immediately come to the defense of the Grove in response to the goblinoid attack! Duuuuhhhh...


We are repeatedly presented with uber "humanized" Tieflings who love their families, squabble over familiar matters, and are friendly and welcoming fashionable "victims". A tiefling bard on the periphery of the grove delights us with an autobiographical account of her relationship with her teacher, and charms us with her as yet unpolished musical skills. Zevlor, their leader, is calm, noble, and the perfect "noble victim".

I completely missed the Mol and Thefling Hideout subplot when playing with patch 3, and only found it after reading a walkthrough. Nor did patch 3 Mattis and her accomplices steal anything from my Wizard, they only tried to sell useless items with non existent magical properties. I rescued Mino from his attempted robbery of the Harpy nest (but those Harpies stole first!) only to uncover the hideout, and the classic "child thief ring" was lacking only an apparent adult leader. When I tried to kill the child thieves, they proved unkillable, but very eventually reacted by threatening my PC with retaliation from their leader (broken/unfinished quest?). Just outside the hideout entrance, Arabella's loving, concerned parents were chastising their regrettably rescued daughter by louding berating her thieving over and over again non stop; are we to believe that in an entrenched subculture of childhood criminality, they were so naive and pure that they were utterly clueless that their daughter was already a long term career criminal?

The druids are pompous, self righteous, and speak in annoying nasal, geeky voices (Marcoryl, Loie), keep servants, are cold, hostile, and standoffish (a successful persuasion check with Apikusis, who most players only remember only as "the girl with the bird", reveals her hinted misgivings over the absence of Halsin, but most players are intentionally put off by her initial standoffishness and seeming coldness, and don't pursue the inquiry further). None of the Druids have children, and none appear to be married or in relationships, while thieving Tiefling children are present everywhere outside the sacred grove. Thus we don't need to worry about killing or orphaning non existent druidic children (unkillable or otherwise) or breaking druidic hearts if we have fun slaughtering Druids! Even the goblins have very cute but unredeemably malicious children who players can kill (encouraged by Wyll's thirst for "frontier justice" against other races). Moreover, given D&D's persistent trope about rapidly breeding Goblins that quickly overrun places they inhabit, it's odd that Goblin children are so rare in this game! But who cares, those Druids must be dull, sexless celibates (not part of D&D lore!) unlike that oh so hot Minthara who spreads her legs for us if we kill off Druids! It's so much fun to wipe out groups with differing religious beliefs from our own; let's make it even more enticing and rewarding!

Nettie, who under the surface is arguably the most honorable, dignified and level headed character in the game, is set up so that unless the player makes the correct and polite dialogue choices, she will attempt to poison him/her, thus triggering the writers' desired murderous or hostile response from the player. Should you speak politely and respectfully with her after you have railroaded into being dissed by the loudmouth dwarven druid guards and their bear so that you are thus more likely to choose the hostile dialog options with Nettie, you will find that she not only does not try to poison your Tav, but is willing to believe your word of honor that you will commit suicide if CONVENTIONAL ceremorphosis insues, both to spare yourself the agonies of transformation, and to prevent turning OTHERS into mindflayers or eating their brains as well.

The game reminds us, repeatedly and luridly, what conventional ceremorphosis involves: "excruciating agony"(Gale), "sundering skin and liquifying guts" (that charming devil), "worms eating us from within" (ad nauseam, from Shadowheart), "worms eating our brains out" (Astarion). Nettie, from her research with Halsin (she's a level headed proto scientist, not a frenzied unstable self obsessed emotion driven narcissist like Astarion) is the first character to point out to our PC that this does not appear to be conventional ceremorphosis, because "something" is altering or stopping the process, and because suddenly dozens of Mindflayer victims are turning up. She offers her knowledge to our Tav with the very responsible request that they spare themselves the risk of harming others if worse comes to worst and they start showing symptoms of conventional ceremorphosis.

Then there is Kagha, who is little more than a one dimensional plot device to further incite players against "the druids". She is a self righteous harsh featured (too bad, I found her far more attractive than blandly featured Shadowheart, or wicked witch Minthara, and so did my High Elf Druid Tav) stereotypical bitch as well as a misanthropic tree hugger (a stereotype that is too often painfully common in the REAL WORLD), representing every cliche available to set up the player to kill her, even more than obsessive player railroader Gaider's Keeper Zathrian. The cutesy sugar coated anthropomorphism of the Grove's non Humanoid inhabitants contrasts jarringly with Kagha's fierce stewardship of her Grove; the latter is a very realistic depiction of the harsh and usually merciless realities of "nature", those cute fluffy Wolves, bears, etc (the alpha females of which are in reality as obsessed with their social staus and power as Kagha) are not.

Players won't even discover that Kagha is a secret Shadow Druid unless they read a walkthrough, or open her conveniently non red chest and read its' contents. Somehow, other items that reveal historical and mundane Grove lore are red, and a stuffy snotty Druid will warn you against stealing them to read!

Kagha of course uses a viper to terrorize and potentially kill a thieving Tiefling child (Arabella), thus capitalizing on the Human player's REAL WORLD partially innate aversion to all snakes, to make her even more hateful. Not for us is the gristly mauling of children by a large predatory mammal such as a Tiger, or their trampling by an elephant, even though this happens to hundreds of children annually in nations outside of Europe that have not decimated their large, dangerous, and agriculture incompatible megafauna like Europe. Isolated from the often horrific real world consequences of living alongside Tigers (they're viewed in the developed West as great big beautiful moggies) and elephants (viewed as majestic gentle giant herbivores, bulls in the testosterone fueled hyperaggression of musth are misrepresented as having toothaches or seeking vengeance on Humans for poaching), these animals are not viewed as evil like serpents by players who overwhelmingly have a developed Western world perspective. No, we need a VIPER, a primally and innately terrifying animal, that unrealistically assumes the warning posture of an unrelated cobra displaying its' hood, and which engages in the mouth contortions of a snake with advanced mouth rot, while perceiving airborne speech that real vipers are incapable of hearing, much less understanding, because their "language" is chemical, thermal, and visual!


The cinematic that plays if you confront Kagha about her Shadow Druid affiliation is unintentionally hilarious; but underlines the fact that these 'racist' Druids include Gnomes, Halflings, Elves, Half Elves, and Humans of diverse subraces and ethnicities, while those "racism victimized" Tieflings include only Asmodeus and Mephistopheles Tieflings! It's also nearly meaningless, since after relentlessly steering the player into hating ir despising and attacking the Druids, the writers have also dangled the baits of idol theft, mass killing of a different religious group, riches from pillaging, and best of all, brief sex with a Drow hottie, to even more effectively encourage criminal and antisocial behavior!

Are so many people this clueless as to how they are manipulated and railroaded, in BOTH real and fantasy worlds? Or that the best fantasy bears enough resemblance to reality to be relatable?

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Goblins have been anonymous, filthy, rapidly breeding menaces in all versions of D&D, albeit to varying degrees. Before Deekin and Shadows of Undrentide Kobolds were just killable creatures for low level adventurers. Read the often painfully unimaginative and repetitive Monster Manuals from earlier D&D; Kobolds are cowardly but very industrious creatures who worship Kurtelmak, who hates all non Kobolds, etc, etc, etc. Shadows finally gave Kobolds some depth, and around that time their draconic nature was stressed (BG1 made them into rat kangaroos for mass killing, the player's journal even refers to "the fine sport.of Kobold hunting" [killing for fun]). Don't even get me started about Gaider's Xvarts; all adult males, no children to present troubling issues, and their camps are strategically positioned to railroad the player into Xvart genocide.

Gnomes were and are a whole different story. Originally depicted as obscure and vaguely described Dwarven kin, they were subsequently expanded into eccentric but extremely intelligent, geeky, and super analytical but often pompous and arrogant small humanoid beings.

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Originally Posted by Twinkle Toes
So Larian decided it is ok to perpetuate negative sterotypes with their depiction of Goblins. But what is even more insidious is they allow you to kill children in BG3 but only the nasty green skinned ones.

Try killing a Tiefling child and you arent able to.

so what is the message here Larian?
The only good goblin is a dead goblin. You're making them good!

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Goblin kids are men eating monsters who grow up to be men eating adult monsters. If they didn't roast people on spits... Like poor Brian...

The worst thing anyone can do is humanize monsters in D&D. Part of the fun is killing bad things and not feeling guilty about it. Start making every dang race potentially good, and the fun is gone. Now I have to worry about what I kill, that they might have just been misunderstood.

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There is a special circle of hell reserved for people who bump old and contentious threads.

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Originally Posted by Natureboy
bizarre wall of text

Wow. Now THAT is how you necro a post.

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SO what ... should he start the same topic over again?
Be glad that finaly someone who can use "search" appeared on this forum. -_-

ON topic ...
I dont care if goblins are or are not evil ... i just want to smack Mol over that damned smug face. :-/
That NPC seems to me like it knows its completely immortal and it honestly bothers me a lot. :-/


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Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Tieflings in earlier versions of D&D were depicted as trending towards evil and reveling in destruction (like a certain bard in BG2). This was attributed to their fiendish ancestry, and their inability to resist (or willingness to follow) their innate evil predispositions. Their more recent depiction as occupational thieves and organized criminals is a "politically correct" revision of them as victims of non Tiefling prejudice, which forces them to live in the high crime areas of Humanoid cities, corrupted by non Tiefling criminal influence. Larian's writers have promoted them to "noble outcasts" and oh so fashionable victims. As part of this overhaul, they relentlessly smear Druids of all "races" and ethnicities except Arron and Halsin, because the Druids, too, are supposedly victimizing the noble and suffering Tieflings.

THAT IS why Tiefling children are unkillable. Larian's writers want you to like and support Tieflings, and hate and kill their enemies. They likely have an extended storyline coming up involving Tieflings that continues after the player reaches Baldur's Gate. The discussions I've seen on the internet don't even mention that the Tiefs have made enemies of the Druids who saved them from slaughter by goblinoids and humanoids by stealing compulsively and repeatedly from their saviors.

Goblins, though given more dept and complexity in BG3 than in earlier D&D based CRPGs, are still ugly, filthy, irredeemably evil subjects for mass killing to keep their rapidly multiplying hordes from increasing out of control. This is the first CRPG I've player that actually includes (very cute but still maliciously evil) Goblin children, who are nevertheless remarkably scarce in the camp and the Shattered Sanctum relative to the supposedly rodentlike fecundity of their elders.

I'm a professional biologist, a volunteer wildlife rehabber (like Nettie, with whom I had an instant bond, particularly since Blue Jays are my great favorites among North American birds). I'm also a hobbyist non venomous snake keeper who coexists with wild American Black Bears, Canadian Lynx, Bobcats, and Coywolves, and other potentially dangerous wildlife, none of which have any remaining equivalents in the wild in Larian's Germany because rhey were systematically exterminated centuries ago. This means that their writers' perspective on 'real world' Wolves, bears, etc is based on what they see safely confined in zoos or in entertainment mefia, NOT on their wild counterparts! Vipers do exist in Germany, in the fotm of the fairly rare Adder (Viper berus). However, Germany, despite the genocides of the Third Reich, still has many Roma, while they are very scarce to nonexistent in the neighborhoods of most of this thread's readers and commenters.

"Reality" is a product of surroundings based experience, and subjective perception!

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