Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 14 of 28 1 2 12 13 14 15 16 27 28
Joined: Jul 2021
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
Remember that these folks grew up in a world where goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears and the like were constant scourges to civilization.

Joined: Aug 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2020
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I won't dig into the issues I personally have with the idea of escapism and fun mixed with guiltlessly killing thinking, sapient beings

Boiled down to its most essential elements, D&D is a game centered around combat (i.e., violence and death). Sooner or later, thinking beings are going to meet their end by steel or spell...well, unless you're only slaying skeletons and oozes, anyhow. Surprisingly, you can indulge in a session of tabletop roleplaying where unabashed bad guys are getting killed while your character neglects/forgets to display remorse and not be a homicidal maniac in your everyday life. If one is incapable of keeping a barrier between reality and fantasy (e.g., they find it impossible to not view monsters as humans), that is an issue they need to address; the alternative is to abandon roleplaying.

I have no issue with killing thinking beings in a tabletop game. Having villains The only time it rubs me the wrong way is the idea of just having a sapient race that can always be evil and exist to just be killed without any question of morality. Killing bandits? Sure. Killing evil wizards and their minions? Sure. (though I do find it kind of eye-rolling that such thugs would all choose to fight to the death, and when I GM a game, I usually have it that after a couple thugs have been taken down, the rest will either surrender or run away unless circumstances make sense for them not to). Also, I'm totally fine with things like devils and demons in games. Beings who are supernaturally evil because being evil is as much a part of what makes them what they are as being made of meat and bone is to making us what we are. And from what I understand about D&D lore, that goes for chromatic dragons as well. They're evil because that's supernaturally part of their nature.

You are right that making all the classic monsters misunderstood humans is dull and samey, but that's bad writing, not a product of nuance just in principle. They don't actually have to be misunderstood. Orcs and goblins can still be hostile to humans, elves, etc. And if in your setting orcs and goblins and other such monsters are all evil because of supernatural shenanigans, or because biologically they're such that they cannot coexist with elves, humans, halflings, gnomes, etc, then that's an interesting angle I'm happy to see explored. But personally, I find it hard to buy that a species that's perfectly sapient and has free will that allows them to make choices and think for themselves, would ALL be flat evil that can only be dealt with by killing them. I find that boring and unbelievable, since if they're sapient, then they can want things other than just to kill people, and if they can want things other than that, then it's possible to negotiate and come to agreements with them. It doesn't even have to be friendly. It can be a deal that comes down to "hey, this fighting is bad for both our forces. You stay away from us, we'll stay away from you." If they only exist to be hostile and kill and cannot be more than that within the setting, then they're just animals that walk on two legs.

And I also agree with you that since I'm the one that takes an issue with the idea of sapient beings being portrayed as unfailingly evil monsters, I'm the one that should be addressing it. I'm happy to see games moving away from the idea of other sapient species being just evil and I think that as a rule that's better and more interesting, but if a group wants to stick to that idea, then I just won't play with them. We just have different ideas of what we find fun, and if I tried to impose my ideas on a group that didn't share them, I would be a jerk. I have no problem finding other groups and other games that suit my playstyle better. Everything I laid out above, those are just my feelings. You feel different and that's fine. I hope you continue to find games that you can enjoy, just like I hope I continue to find games I enjoy. I don't think you're bad or wrong for your preference, I just disagree.

Joined: Jul 2021
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I'm happy to see games moving away from the idea of other sapient species being just evil and I think that as a rule that's better and more interesting

Whereas I see the abandonment/denial of another tool in the DM's toolbox as a tragedy. Certain games will go one way and others will head in the other direction, but there's room for both interpretations and everything in-between. Finally, I feel it necessary to point out that no one is lesser/dumber or morally suspect for featuring unambiguous (thinking) monsters in their campaign.

Joined: Jul 2021
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
[Linked Image from c.tenor.com]

Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Online Content
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
Honestly, was just thinking out loud, trying to look at it from various points of view.

I see both sides. On the one hand, I don't want to play a game that makes me feel like I am the monster.

On the other hand, having children in the game is realistic from a Faerun world-building perspective. I mean, they are vermin, essentially, who breed like rats and eat people. You would expect to find them in huge numbers in a goblin camp. Like Wyll, you should probably hate them, if you truly grew up in Faerun.

But I tend to steer in the direction of being sensitive to the feelings of others. At the same time, I get that people are sensitive... About EVERYTHING.

I'm glad I'm not a video game developer. Geez. I do not envy Larian at all. Every little element is debated and picked apart.

Joined: Sep 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by MrToucan
People get upset for the most insignificant, nonsense reasons, and if we take out anything and everything that may make someone feel bad, we'll not have any game left by the end.
This. Some really great things have been ruined in other games I have played because offended people complained too much.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Zarna
or someone who hates thieves and wants to see them all executed or is following orders in a combat situation
Oh yes, orders ... the oldest excuse in the world. laugh
I mentioned the following orders part for the people who feel bad to be able to use it as an excuse. smile
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
That was the original point ...
Either allow us to attack both, or none ... but dont make system differences just bcs you want us to hate one side and simpatize with the other ... its cheap, its lame, and we dislike it. :P
I agree both groups should be equally killable
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Zarna
Maybe they could change it so they run out a side tunnel instead of getting reinforcements? Just throwing out ideas that should give options for both the kill and no kill types. I do not care one way or the other personally.
I dislike this option honestly ...
Would rather see something like this than to have the option to kill them completely removed because some people have a problem with it.

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I'd argue that the idea that "they're monsters because they're monsters" is even more likely to make things boring and homogenous.
Have to agree with this. It is boring to know that you will kill something because it is a monster. If I wanted that I would be playing pve in an MMO. For any rpg type games I want to have to think about my actions and have "nice monsters" sometimes to break up the tedium of always killing them.

Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
I'd be willing to bet that, when we do finally get our "zombie apocalypse", some of the posters here will be out protesting for zombie rights. rpg003

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
if they're sapient, then they can want things other than just to kill people, and if they can want things other than that, then it's possible to negotiate and come to agreements with them.
So many examples from our own history come to my mind right now. laugh

You know you would potentialy be right, IF and only if both sides would be even willing to negotiate ...
Take Drow for example, or Githyanki ... no matter the situation, they both see themselves as superior to anyone and anything ... why would they even bother with negotiating? laugh

Originally Posted by Zarna
Would rather see something like this than to have the option to kill them completely removed because some people have a problem with it.
Well i would rather see this as it is ...
After all, as mentioned abowe (and i also compeltely agree) once we start removing things bcs someone could get offended, or feel uncomfortable around that ... we can aswell cancel whole game. :-/

But yes, as a matter of some middle ground it is acceptable ...
Even tho i still believe that fact that they are calling for reinforcements give your benevolence to keep them alive the right value ... you know what it will cost, but you spare them anyway. :P smile

Originally Posted by robertthebard
I'd be willing to bet that, when we do finally get our "zombie apocalypse", some of the posters here will be out protesting for zombie rights. rpg003
Do you know World of Darkness setting?
Especialy Vampire: The Masquerade?

Basic rule of game says that Vampires are suppose to hide their supernatural powers from humans.
But there are groups (usualy descendant of old inquisitors) that know about their existence and fight against them ... in older rulesets people often asted why Society of Leopold (Vampire hunters group, one of those more sucessfull) never revealed existence of supernatural to the world ...

Just recently (2 or 3 years back i believe?) they released 5v of rules, where this question is finaly answered. laugh
They are equaly affraid of mass panic and people who would be fighting for their rights, and willingly offer themselves as a meal ... wich would both make their job much harder. laugh


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Joined: Aug 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2020
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
if they're sapient, then they can want things other than just to kill people, and if they can want things other than that, then it's possible to negotiate and come to agreements with them.
So many examples from our own history come to my mind right now. laugh

You know you would potentialy be right, IF and only if both sides would be even willing to negotiate ...
Take Drow for example, or Githyanki ... no matter the situation, they both see themselves as superior to anyone and anything ... why would they even bother with negotiating? laugh

Oh, I know exactly what you're thinking. And you are quite right. Note that I only said that it's possible to negotiate, not that it's easy or even likely. But Gith and Drow aren't monsters, they're simply part of a culture that won't allow peaceful co-existence with any other group. But that's because of culture, not because of anything truly inherent to them as a species (I might be wrong about the Gith though, I'd never heard of them before BG3). If you raised a baby in some other society, they'd grow up and not just be evil as a function of their existence. A society that's culturally incompatible with others is a different dynamic to an entire species being such.

Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Online Content
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
I think this thread could only be improved by a derailment.
Killing children isn't my hang up per se, it's that even in D&D I think most people would consider it a particularly heinous act. Like the child 'predator' you meet in prison in one of the previous games.
I've killed the goblin children while rescuing Halsin before because they're running away to warn the entire camp, I've seen a spit with human and dwarf bits on it, I've spoken to others before who said they'd kill me in my sleep and they take pleasure in being cruel to animals. Couple that with my preexisting knowledge of goblins as cruel venal creatures at the bottom of the goblinoid totem pole, and I can cobble together a good enough reason for most of my characters to kill them.

As opposed to what I know about the Tiefling children. They're scared. Some are being trained to fight, which made me dislike the adults a little, but which I interpreted as an act of desperation. There's also a group of moppets who steal trinkets from everyone to survive, and want to steal an idol to stop a ritual that will force them into the wilderness, where they will most likely die. So another act of desperation. Me, the player, doesn't have a preconceived notion about a Tiefling's infernal heritage, and seemingly neither does my character, at least I can't recall it coming up. So that angle doesn't work. So in order for my character to kill these children without compunction, he'll need either a compelling reason from the goblin camp, or he needs to be a character who is just that evil. Being a character who is that evil is fine to me but I would appreciate some kind of build-up to it, a conversation here or there about what kind of person I am to do such a thing.

I think this is a little pertinent SNL skit

Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Online Content
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
Has anyone knocked out the tiefling children, taken a long rest, and returned to see if they're still alive. Almost everyone I knocked out in this game bleeds out after one long rest anyway.

At least that was the case when I last tested.

Joined: May 2021
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: May 2021
Just throwing this out there…I personally do *not* think the option to go Anakin Skywalker on kids should be removed from the game at all. By all means, more options are always better imho. I also have no judgment on how anyone plays their games.

Just for me, personally, I try not to kill kids.

Perhaps it is the way they are presented in the game, and the fact that I am new to Forgotten Realms…but the goblins have their own language, religion, culture, magic, and individual personalities. You can even work with them if you choose to. As presented in this game, I find it hard to buy into “goblins are pure evil and a scourge and should always be destroyed”. They just seem like a warrior society with questionable morals (canabilism? Yech) to me (as a newb). Perhaps that is why it feels icky to kill goblin children.

But overall, I would rather these types of morally dark things be in the game than have it turn into My Little Pony. It is an adult game after all.

Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Online Content
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
I think the reason for it was already broached before the thread was necro'd. Killing children is censored in many countries, like when Fallout had to remove all of them in Europe.

I don't think we should be debating what to remove from a game either, especially one that is supposedly about giving you the freedom to play how thou wilt.

Last edited by Sozz; 11/01/22 11:22 PM.
Joined: Jul 2021
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
So many examples from our own history come to my mind right now. laugh

So many examples of (literal) monsters in our own history? Fascinating. I'll continue to harp on the inability to differentiate between reality and fantasy.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
So many examples of (literal) monsters in our own history? Fascinating. I'll continue to harp on the inability to differentiate between reality and fantasy.
You should start reading whole post ... you know, including that quoted part. wink

---

Originally Posted by timebean
I find it hard to buy into “goblins are pure evil and a scourge and should always be destroyed”. They just seem like a warrior society with questionable morals (canabilism? Yech)
Im not aware that goblins are camnibals ... O_o
They were only eating other speacies after all.

Or at least i dont recall even single example of Goblin eating another Goblin, or at least Goblinoid ... they were supposedly roasting Dwarf (i mean you can still take it as if they are roasting Pork, and just messing with you), and were talking about eating PC (Human/Elf/...), and Halsin (whom they considered a bear). smile

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 12/01/22 07:02 AM.

Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Joined: Nov 2020
P
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
P
Joined: Nov 2020
Goblins are survivalists (generally, though there are exceptions). Things like morality, pride, honour, all these take a back seat to the survival of the tribe, it's why Goblins are far more likely to take an opportunity to flee and save themselves, than they are to make a stand against overwhelming odds. It's also why they might eat what meat is available, even if that meat was their friend two minutes ago. The ends justify the means when it comes to living another day.

Joined: Oct 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Sozz
I think the reason for it was already broached before the thread was necro'd. Killing children is censored in many countries, like when Fallout had to remove all of them in Europe.

In Germany, iirc. Not the rest of Europe.


Optimistically Apocalyptic
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
Originally Posted by Sozz
I think the reason for it was already broached before the thread was necro'd. Killing children is censored in many countries, like when Fallout had to remove all of them in Europe.
Man, I remember they made a goddawful abrupt job about it, too.
Children were just made invisible while their ghost-chatting was still visible in several areas and few quests that involved finding a child or similar stuff got broken.
Of course an unofficial patch could be applied to solve the issue, but still.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Joined: Jul 2021
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
Never get involved in a land war in Asia.

Never get involved in a thread on D&D morality.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
I would say this is more matter of missing option ...
Its every player business if they will care about moral questions or not ... not Larians.


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Page 14 of 28 1 2 12 13 14 15 16 27 28

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5