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Originally Posted by fylimar
I have to ask: How do you turn the tiefling kids against you? Never had that happen.
I'm curious to know myself.

I'll be honest, I've been speeding through the grove stuff the last few patches.

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Originally Posted by dwig
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Lol...and let's not forget the Lucifer TV series. Lucifer. You know SATAN!!! [said like Church Lady SNL]

Also, regardless of the source material, Lucifer (as in the biblical Lucifer) was created with free will. He CHOSE evil. He was not created to be evil.

So Lucifer is not exactly a good example of the inherent evil of D&D lower plane denizens.

Lol. I know. I was referring to Lucifer as an example of how our society is turning even the Prince of Evil into a not-so-bad guy.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Originally Posted by fylimar
I have to ask: How do you turn the tiefling kids against you? Never had that happen.
I'm curious to know myself.

I'll be honest, I've been speeding through the grove stuff the last few patches.

You steal from Mol and the gang. It actually happened to me because game glitch. I was trading with Mol when I got accused of stealing by some random kid. Then Mol got pissed and said they were going to tell the adults. Then they all ran out. I raided the place in anger. Left, and suddenly tieflings galore attacking in anger.

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Originally Posted by fylimar
I have to ask: How do you turn the tiefling kids against you? Never had that happen.

There is a sort of a "reputation" system with the tiefling kids, and you can do a few things to influence it. Letting one of the Aradin's gang hit the kid who stole his locket gives you negative "reputation", as is pocketing the "lucky" ring the scammer kid gives you for the coin trick. Shielding the thief and saving the kid from the harpies, on the other hand, gives you positive "reputation". When you get to Mol for the first time, she will list your good and bad deeds, and that will determine your relationship. More good than bad and she likes you, which will help you get your stolen stuff back without additional fuss; more bad than good and she dislikes you, which will result in her setting the guards on you.

Last edited by MrToucan; 25/01/22 06:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by dwig
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Lol...and let's not forget the Lucifer TV series. Lucifer. You know SATAN!!! [said like Church Lady SNL]

Also, regardless of the source material, Lucifer (as in the biblical Lucifer) was created with free will. He CHOSE evil. He was not created to be evil.

So Lucifer is not exactly a good example of the inherent evil of D&D lower plane denizens.

Lol. I know. I was referring to Lucifer as an example of how our society is turning even the Prince of Evil into a not-so-bad guy.

Thoughts on Bane: "Is naked tyranny really that bad?"

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Thanks for answering my question.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by dwig
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Lol...and let's not forget the Lucifer TV series. Lucifer. You know SATAN!!! [said like Church Lady SNL]

Also, regardless of the source material, Lucifer (as in the biblical Lucifer) was created with free will. He CHOSE evil. He was not created to be evil.

So Lucifer is not exactly a good example of the inherent evil of D&D lower plane denizens.

Lol. I know. I was referring to Lucifer as an example of how our society is turning even the Prince of Evil into a not-so-bad guy.

Thoughts on Bane: "Is naked tyranny really that bad?"

Not if used in the right way. 😂

For example: a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings who have lived privileged lives and who have abused others for countless years are taken over by a vicious tyrant who serves Bane. They put the good-for-nothings to work, treating them as they treated others. Frontier Justice, I call that. 😂

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Not if used in the right way. 😂

For example: a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings who have lived privileged lives and who have abused others for countless years are taken over by a vicious tyrant who serves Bane. They put the good-for-nothings to work, treating them as they treated others. Frontier Justice, I call that. 😂

You jest, but I imagine that is exactly the kind of sentiment Banites capitalize on when recruiting. Bane worship...the ultimate pyramid scheme; unfortunately, most aspirants end up ground down by the base of that pyramid.

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/comicb...linoid-lore-feywild-monsters-multiverse/

And there you go. No longer evil. No longer monstera. They're races, just like elves.

No more justifying killing goblin kids. They're only as evil as elves and therefore redeemable.

Last edited by GM4Him; 28/01/22 11:21 AM.
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
https://www.google.com/amp/s/comicb...linoid-lore-feywild-monsters-multiverse/

And there you go. No longer evil. No longer monstera. They're races, just like elves.

No more justifying killing goblin kids. They're only as evil as elves and therefore redeemable.


There's one silver lining ->

Quote
especially as Monsters of the Multiverse seems to set the stage for a move away from the Forgotten Realms as the chief campaign setting for the game

Good. I want post-3.5e WOTC to stop screwing with The Forgotten Realms. Leave the setting to us geeks.

Otherwise...

....................../´¯/)
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.................../..../
............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
.........\.................'...../
..........''...\.......... _.·´
............\..............(
..............\.............\...

Last edited by Ragitsu; 28/01/22 11:18 PM.
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The only way for WoTC to stop screwing with the Realms at this point would be to just write-off the current timeline and revert to pre-4th edition. No more of this non-committal PR spin of 'look we fixed things with the Sundering It's just how you remember it! Pay no attention to half the world still being in ruins, now lets get started with sweeping lore changes and more apocalypses every week!'

At the very least support earlier editions like letting people publish new stuff in pre-5th edition settings.

But that is not happening. 'Looks like 3rd/2nd edition if you squint real hard' is probably about the closest things have a chance of getting. It is what it is.

As for the Tieflings vs goblin kids stuff....

When you side with the goblins against the druids and tieflings, a lot of the narrative Larian builds around the aftermath of the battle seems focused around trying to make the player feel absolutely miserable (honestly to the point I felt like I was being pressured to reload and play the other side) Really going out of their way to tug your heartstrings IMO with stuff like the goblin giving you alfira's lute and telling you how he sawed off her fingers to get it, or your dog telling you he hopes the goblins aren't your friends if you have speak with animals, etc. What happens to the kids really exemplifies this approach-you can find a letter on the body of the kid you save from the harpies to their 'hero', one of the goblins will basically tell you he feels sorry for them. You are obviously supposed to feel responsible and guilty for getting all those kids killed.

By contrast, the goblin kids are less important plotwise -no quests to help/rescue goblin kids, no building favor with them like they are a faction....and they are simultaneously both easier to kill (can be targeted and killed directly) while also being optional-you don't *have* to kill the goblin kids, but the game doesn't guilt trip you if you choose to either.

Narratively it feels very lopsided. I don't appreciate how Larian goes out of their way to show that while bad, the goblins are still *people* with more nuance to them then they are generally given in similar media, but then practically bludgeon the player with how much of an 'absolute' bastard they are if they side against the tieflings. The game already punishes you pretty heavily if you do so, I could deal without the massive guilt trip that you get handed as well.

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Why can Kagha kill a tiefling child, but the protagonist cannot?


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Okay, I get this, but I really don't. Do people really even understand what a goblin is in the Forgotten Realms?

Goblins are a shining example what you don't want your race to degenerate into. They mostly live in caves, eat anything they can get their filthy mitts on, including carrion or each other. They live in open communal spaces without latrines or other means of sanitation. Their leadership is completely based on domination. Consent is a foreign concept for their women. They are extremely greedy as a rule. They are quick to anger and violence comes easily to them.

Goblins as a rule don't farm unless they are made into farmers by an overlord. They are often too lazy and unskilled to be successful hunters. This leaves them with raids on other communities, be they goblin or otherwise, and banditry.

There are no FR stories that I'm aware of that portray a goblin lair as anything other then a cesspit. The sewers of human cities are cleaner and healthier to live in than a goblin lair.

Now, that being said, how does anyone RP tolerating the stink? These creatures literally crap in their beds, then go say hello to the dirty adventurers that the boss invited into the filth of their home.

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Originally Posted by Dustmen
Okay, I get this, but I really don't. Do people really even understand what a goblin is in the Forgotten Realms?

Goblins are a shining example what you don't want your race to degenerate into. They mostly live in caves, eat anything they can get their filthy mitts on, including carrion or each other. They live in open communal spaces without latrines or other means of sanitation. Their leadership is completely based on domination. Consent is a foreign concept for their women. They are extremely greedy as a rule. They are quick to anger and violence comes easily to them.

Goblins as a rule don't farm unless they are made into farmers by an overlord. They are often too lazy and unskilled to be successful hunters. This leaves them with raids on other communities, be they goblin or otherwise, and banditry.

There are no FR stories that I'm aware of that portray a goblin lair as anything other then a cesspit. The sewers of human cities are cleaner and healthier to live in than a goblin lair.

Now, that being said, how does anyone RP tolerating the stink? These creatures literally crap in their beds, then go say hello to the dirty adventurers that the boss invited into the filth of their home.

"They're just misunderstood."

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Originally Posted by Dustmen
Okay, I get this, but I really don't. Do people really even understand what a goblin is in the Forgotten Realms?

Goblins are a shining example what you don't want your race to degenerate into. They mostly live in caves, eat anything they can get their filthy mitts on, including carrion or each other. They live in open communal spaces without latrines or other means of sanitation. Their leadership is completely based on domination. Consent is a foreign concept for their women. They are extremely greedy as a rule. They are quick to anger and violence comes easily to them.

Goblins as a rule don't farm unless they are made into farmers by an overlord. They are often too lazy and unskilled to be successful hunters. This leaves them with raids on other communities, be they goblin or otherwise, and banditry.

There are no FR stories that I'm aware of that portray a goblin lair as anything other then a cesspit. The sewers of human cities are cleaner and healthier to live in than a goblin lair.

Now, that being said, how does anyone RP tolerating the stink? These creatures literally crap in their beds, then go say hello to the dirty adventurers that the boss invited into the filth of their home.

In fact, these are obvious things, but this does not cancel the double standards - the children of some rational beings can be killed because they are evil, while the children of others hypocritically cannot, because they are "good". Why can't I kill those nasty tieflings who robbed me? Stealing from the main character is as much a motive to attack as goblin children throwing stones at a bear.

Or maybe I'm playing as a complete scumbag and want to personally execute Arabella to show the shadow druids what a bastard I am. Why not? Why can't you kill good children, but you can kill bad children in this game?

Although a gang of teenage tiefling thieves can't be called "good", they can't be dealt with just because of their race...

Either make everyone immortal, or give the ability to kill everyone. Both options are good, I don't mind if the goblin kids just run away with 1 hp


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There is, of course, the possibility that the game designers might just feel guilty about killing tiefling kids, but goblins, who are traditionally evil, they have no problems with.

Maybe, for the sake of the consciences of those making the game, we can even just accept it for what it is.

I'm putting myself in the shoes of Larian employees. I, as a DM, would have a REAL hard time letting my players be butchers of kids who are not evil. However, man-eating kids who are evil, yeah, I'd have a bit of a problem with, but I'd allow it. There's a big difference between killing the mischievous thieving tiefling kids and the man-eating goblin kids. A BIG difference. Larian is DM. If they don't feel right about it, then they don't feel right about it.

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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
In fact, these are obvious things, but this does not cancel the double standards - the children of some rational beings can be killed because they are evil, while the children of others hypocritically cannot, because they are "good". Why can't I kill those nasty tieflings who robbed me? Stealing from the main character is as much a motive to attack as goblin children throwing stones at a bear.

Or maybe I'm playing as a complete scumbag and want to personally execute Arabella to show the shadow druids what a bastard I am. Why not? Why can't you kill good children, but you can kill bad children in this game?

Although a gang of teenage tiefling thieves can't be called "good", they can't be dealt with just because of their race...

Either make everyone immortal, or give the ability to kill everyone. Both options are good, I don't mind if the goblin kids just run away with 1 hp

I completely agree with you on this. I never liked unkillable NPCs. If you want to have children running around to make your world more believable, then you need to take the risk that someone might kill them all. My answer would be not to give them immunity, but to make it pointless. 0 Exp and no loot on any bodies of a character under age. Repercussions would be against your reputation. Maybe a forced expulsion from the Grove, but at least one merchant tells you what a great job you did and that they will be happy to work with you out of the cave that you find that druid in. Making people unkillable is lazy. Making consequences for killing people you don't want killed is harder.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
There is, of course, the possibility that the game designers might just feel guilty about killing tiefling kids, but goblins, who are traditionally evil, they have no problems with.

Maybe, for the sake of the consciences of those making the game, we can even just accept it for what it is.

I'm putting myself in the shoes of Larian employees. I, as a DM, would have a REAL hard time letting my players be butchers of kids who are not evil. However, man-eating kids who are evil, yeah, I'd have a bit of a problem with, but I'd allow it. There's a big difference between killing the mischievous thieving tiefling kids and the man-eating goblin kids. A BIG difference. Larian is DM. If they don't feel right about it, then they don't feel right about it.
Okay okay let it be

Let's not be too hard on Larian, it's not the most important thing in the game


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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I don't mind if the goblin kids just run away with 1 hp
Quite honestly i would ...
1hp imortality is just as lame as regular imortality, if not even more, since the only difference is that it only allows you to also waste some resources. -_-

I think we SHOULD be able to kill them ... it doesnt really matter what are their aligment, or what are our reasons ... those are things for us to concider, not Larian. :-/

The best middle ground i can think about it, would be make them KO instead of dead ...
Then let them dissapear without a trace after long rest, just as most (not every tho!) npc does right now.

Originally Posted by Dustmen
My answer would be not to give them immunity, but to make it pointless. 0 Exp and no loot on any bodies of a character under age. Repercussions would be against your reputation. Maybe a forced expulsion from the Grove, but at least one merchant tells you what a great job you did and that they will be happy to work with you out of the cave that you find that druid in. Making people unkillable is lazy. Making consequences for killing people you don't want killed is harder.
Agreed 100%


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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