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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
Originally Posted by Eugerome

Because there are classes that are built around hitting things - Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock. Hitting things and hitting them hard is what they are all about.

I am not saying you shouldn't use other things like surface effects/shoves, etc. I am all for using them. But if your core class abilities are about hitting things then they should be around hitting things.

And my arguments is that in 5e, the high miss chance is acceptable because it is an excellent chance for RP. Which is completely gone in BG3 because it is a video game. Instead you are stuck with messages saying: miss, miss, hit, miss, which is not fun.



No, you're wrong. It's pretty clear you don't have extensive experience with 5e if you think that the 'martial' classes should be able to hit everything to their own satisfaction.

D&D, 5e, and the Baldur's Gate series of games has always been about the party, not the person. In some fights, the big guy with the big stick will get to excel. In other fights, they have to take a backseat and have someone else excel. Or maybe the fight is such that one character has to *help* the other character, so their combined firepower is greater than each individually.

I totally agree, those classes shouldn't rely on shove or Surfaces because I absolutely despise the importing of DoS surfaces into a game system where they don't belong. The Rogue has the ability to BA hide, providing Advantage which is a huge boost in hit-chance. The Ranger has some spellcasting support like Entangle to try and Restrain the enemy, granting *all* of their allies Advantage. The Ranger also potentially has a pet or two, further adding utility to help the battle by increasing the number of attacks they get to make.

The Warlock is literally a spellcaster. Yes EB + Hex is their bread and butter, but it's not the only thing they have. Maybe you sacrifice that Hex and instead cast Hold Person, so your big fighter that was missing suddenly has Advantage *and* automatically crits, devastating the enemy.

And what about the Fighter? Well, ideally Larian will implement the rules of 5e correctly when they can. That means the Battle Master will get the Precision maneuver (add d8 to a hit to possibly turn a miss into a hit) and things like Grapple, to pin the enemy down so the ranged characters aren't getting attacked as often.

Ultimately, it's pretty clear that D&D just isn't for you. It's not an Action RPG, it's not meant to make every character feel supremely powerful in every encounter. Some enemies have Low AC, and your Fighter will wreck them. Some enemies have high AC, so your Fighter will either need help, or its your spellcasters time to shine.

Party synergy and teamwork beats everything else in D&D, and it should here too.


In most case warlock just uses EB in BG3 because dc spells sucks now compared with auto attack.

Fighter in BG3 has no grapple so sorry no such combo.

I recommend you to play the game before comment, your experience is on paper.

Last edited by dunehunter; 17/10/20 06:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
To fix up a DRASTIC misconception that have been spouted as truth in this thread:

Larian has stated that the difficulty for this EA is the intended "Hard" difficulty. Not story mode, not normal difficulty. Hard. They are intentionally doing this to gather data on which fights may be harder or easier than intended.

This feels like "easy" with a lot of cheese sprinkled on top.

If this is really the "hard" difficulty the following things need to happen:

- Barrels get realistic weight and placement
- Long rest has consequences (like random encounters)
- Visibility cones are extended so you can't hide in plain sight and cheese with Stealth
- Disengage is an action
- Shove uses an attack
- Jump in combat triggers an AoO
- Free backstabs every turn are removed
- Equipping a Shield is an action (switching equipped weapons can be instant or a bonus action, but the end of turn Shield cheese needs to go)
- Armor can not be removed much less equipped in combat
- Wizards can not learn literally all spells (ok maybe this is a bug?)
- Magic pockets are removed so you can't use items from whoever's inventory who isn't even in the same fight
- Torch is not the best weapon
- add more enemies rather than give everyone fire and acid bombs and paint every battlefield in surfaces
- Goblins get their stats back smile




Last edited by 1varangian; 17/10/20 06:56 PM.
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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
To fix up a DRASTIC misconception that have been spouted as truth in this thread:

Larian has stated that the difficulty for this EA is the intended "Hard" difficulty. Not story mode, not normal difficulty. Hard. They are intentionally doing this to gather data on which fights may be harder or easier than intended.
Can you please tell us where you saw this? If this information is correct I'm a bit worried.

Originally Posted by 1varangian
- Barrels get realistic weight and placement
- Long rest has consequences (like random encounters)
- Visibility cones are extended so you can't hide in plain sight and cheese with Stealth
- Disengage is an action
- Shove uses an attack
- Jump in combat triggers an AoO
- Free backstabs every turn are removed
- Equipping a Shield is an action (switching equipped weapons can be instant or a bonus action, but the end of turn Shield cheese needs to go)
- Armor can not be removed much less equipped in combat
- Wizards can not learn literally all spells (ok maybe this is a bug?)
- Magic pockets are removed so you can't use items from whoever's inventory who isn't even in the same fight
- Torch is not the best weapon
- add more enemies rather than give everyone fire and acid bombs and paint every battlefield in surfaces
- Goblins get their stats back smile
Seems like you are asking for the game to have the DnD rules, weird.



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Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
Originally Posted by Eugerome

Because there are classes that are built around hitting things - Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock. Hitting things and hitting them hard is what they are all about.

I am not saying you shouldn't use other things like surface effects/shoves, etc. I am all for using them. But if your core class abilities are about hitting things then they should be around hitting things.

And my arguments is that in 5e, the high miss chance is acceptable because it is an excellent chance for RP. Which is completely gone in BG3 because it is a video game. Instead you are stuck with messages saying: miss, miss, hit, miss, which is not fun.



No, you're wrong. It's pretty clear you don't have extensive experience with 5e if you think that the 'martial' classes should be able to hit everything to their own satisfaction.

D&D, 5e, and the Baldur's Gate series of games has always been about the party, not the person. In some fights, the big guy with the big stick will get to excel. In other fights, they have to take a backseat and have someone else excel. Or maybe the fight is such that one character has to *help* the other character, so their combined firepower is greater than each individually.

I totally agree, those classes shouldn't rely on shove or Surfaces because I absolutely despise the importing of DoS surfaces into a game system where they don't belong. The Rogue has the ability to BA hide, providing Advantage which is a huge boost in hit-chance. The Ranger has some spellcasting support like Entangle to try and Restrain the enemy, granting *all* of their allies Advantage. The Ranger also potentially has a pet or two, further adding utility to help the battle by increasing the number of attacks they get to make.

The Warlock is literally a spellcaster. Yes EB + Hex is their bread and butter, but it's not the only thing they have. Maybe you sacrifice that Hex and instead cast Hold Person, so your big fighter that was missing suddenly has Advantage *and* automatically crits, devastating the enemy.

And what about the Fighter? Well, ideally Larian will implement the rules of 5e correctly when they can. That means the Battle Master will get the Precision maneuver (add d8 to a hit to possibly turn a miss into a hit) and things like Grapple, to pin the enemy down so the ranged characters aren't getting attacked as often.

Ultimately, it's pretty clear that D&D just isn't for you. It's not an Action RPG, it's not meant to make every character feel supremely powerful in every encounter. Some enemies have Low AC, and your Fighter will wreck them. Some enemies have high AC, so your Fighter will either need help, or its your spellcasters time to shine.

Party synergy and teamwork beats everything else in D&D, and it should here too.


I don't know why you would assume 5e is not for me - I have been enjoying it as a player and a DM. But this is not about 5e, this is about BG3.

I think you are missing my point. In 5e most of the joy doesn't necessarily come from combat, but from the roleplay. The rogue will shine if your party is breaking into a dungeon, scouting ahead, stealing from npc's. But in combat you pretty much do one thing - you set up and execute Sneak Attacks.

BG3 exploration and social interactions are scaled down compared to 5e. I am sure you can't deny that. Most of the time you will be fighting.

And if during the first chapter of the game the rogue's key feature brings very little to the table, then why play it. That is the point I am trying to make.

I feel like tweaking the enemies is the simplest solution. If every goblin you faced in EA was a 7 HP 15 AC goblin then the game would quickly become incredibly boring and frustrating for classes that focus on hitting AC. Which at the moment comprise 4/6 classes in EA. I include Warlock in this because most of your time you will be using Eldrich Blast for damage output.

Which is why Larian scales goblin AC - they seem to have AC 9-14 from what I saw. Which I think is a perfectly fine approach.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
So goblins' AC has gone down from 15 to 7 and their HP has doubled. This simple redesign has long reaching consequences.

The immediate ones are the low level Wizards' forte, crowd control spells. Sleep and Color Spray have been nerfed to half efficiency. Sleep is amazing against multiple high AC, low HP targets. But it's next to worthless against the "Larian goblins". It often drops only 1 goblin instead of 4. Sacred Flame suddenly sucks horribly compared to Fire Bolt because it attacks Dex saves instead of AC. Getting or not getting a +40% hit probability is a huge deal. Magic Missile is also nerfed because always hitting isn't special anymore.

So what if this starts a trend where everyone must hit reliably, and everyone's HP pools get inflated to compensate? Effectively everything that does damage that doesn't attack AC gets nerfed. That's basically 90% of spells. Do we really want to rebalance all the spells? How lame will a Fireball feel against HP buffed enemies? Then there will be a healing economy problem when everyone must heal more. Mundane food already heals so maybe easy healing everywhere is where we are headed? We are not there yet in EA, and I really hope this won't become a thing. But the change with goblins implies this is the desired direction.

All of this just because "missing is not fun"? Is it really somehow more fun to kill a goblin in two hits rather than a miss and a hit? The goblins are supposed to be quick and annoying but squishy, and most of them also look pretty heavily armored. If anything, it's weird that you can damage them so easily.

Let's not forget a "miss" in D&D does not mean a clean miss where the attacker just completely fails. Anything that would hit 10AC+Dex is actually a hit. The rest are armor absorbing the damage, and shield and weapon blocks. But the way BG3 shows a miss to you is that you failed. They even added a little laughter from the opponent when you "fail". That's why it doesn't feel good. Of course it doesn't when your Fighter hits nothing but air even though the target is an ogre the size of a barn. It doesn't make any sense. If we saw the weapon being parried or skin/armor deflecting the damage we wouldn't feel like we failed. The opponent succeeded instead.

This is my request to Larian: Make the misses look exciting. Deflections, parries, heavy armor soaking damage. Opponents reeling under impact even if they don't take damage. Don't fundamentally try to change the 5e system. And offer a hardcore D&D setting without any changes. I haven't even played 5e but I looked it up and the tabletop rules on jumping, shoving, disengage and basically everything that's different seem better than BG3 changes.


This need to be seen by Larian guys.

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Originally Posted by Gaidax
Originally Posted by Zorax
I would like it as well if they stick to the DnD 5e rules, giving Goblins high AC and low HP. High AC low HP enemies are simply not meant to be attacked by weapons. Use Spells or skills that target attribute saves. Or inflict status effects on them (e.g. prone, sleep). Or use AoE spells and skils to increase your chance of hitting. But giving them low AC and high HP just to make the standard 2H melee Fighter more viable in every situation sounds kind of dull to me.


You don't fight 5 goblins in this game, you fight 20 at times and at level 3-4 your casters have what 6-7 spell slots? Let's be real here for a moment.

People just don't understand it - it's not a TT game here, it's a video game. In TT you don't have your level 4 party of 4 squaring off against 20 1/4CR+ enemies - in BG3 though? You have quite a few of these encounters. In TT something like Temple courtyard would be considered a DEADLY encounter and it's a normal difficulty here, to remind you.

The big benefit of a video game is that such encounters are actually manageable, but adjustments need to be made to accommodate, nothing is wrong with that - it's the point of homebrew.


I must say, even if I agree with the OP, these are valid argomentations.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
To fix up a DRASTIC misconception that have been spouted as truth in this thread:

Larian has stated that the difficulty for this EA is the intended "Hard" difficulty. Not story mode, not normal difficulty. Hard. They are intentionally doing this to gather data on which fights may be harder or easier than intended.

This feels like "easy" with a lot of cheese sprinkled on top.

If this is really the "hard" difficulty the following things need to happen:

- Barrels get realistic weight and placement
- Long rest has consequences (like random encounters)
- Visibility cones are extended so you can't hide in plain sight and cheese with Stealth
- Disengage is an action
- Shove uses an attack
- Jump in combat triggers an AoO
- Free backstabs every turn are removed
- Equipping a Shield is an action (switching equipped weapons can be instant or a bonus action, but the end of turn Shield cheese needs to go)
- Armor can not be removed much less equipped in combat
- Wizards can not learn literally all spells (ok maybe this is a bug?)
- Magic pockets are removed so you can't use items from whoever's inventory who isn't even in the same fight
- Torch is not the best weapon
- add more enemies rather than give everyone fire and acid bombs and paint every battlefield in surfaces
- Goblins get their stats back smile





This :))

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After dealing with the goblins and spider hp/ac balance, I am looking forward to reaching Baldur's Gate and receiving the seemingly mandatory "clear the rats from the tavern cellar" quest. Imagining a 250 hp Momma rat summoning swarms of 25 hp baby rats with diseased bites, while protected by cr lvl 6, 100 hp/15ac guardian rats with multiple bite/claw attacks each turn.

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Originally Posted by Anfindel
After dealing with the goblins and spider hp/ac balance, I am looking forward to reaching Baldur's Gate and receiving the seemingly mandatory "clear the rats from the tavern cellar" quest. Imagining a 250 hp Momma rat summoning swarms of 25 hp baby rats with diseased bites, while protected by cr lvl 6, 100 hp/15ac guardian rats with multiple bite/claw attacks each turn.


Please don't give them any ideas!

I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it - I do crave low level rat quests. Its always nice afterwards to look back and be like "remember when times were simple and an innkeeper had rats eating his grain? Look at us now." Right now its the rick and morty "quick adventure, in and out" freak out feeling haha.




What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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So, I don't get all the frustration over "AC is too high! I'm always missing my attacks!"

If you're melee, the game, and AI, makes it pretty clear going behind your target gives you bonuses to hit, with enemies doing it constantly. A 15AC has about a 55% chance to be hit by the average PC, but if they have advantage, it goes to an 80% chance, I think. If you're ranged, either casting something like Eldritch Blast, Firebolt, or just shooting a bow/crossbow, it's even easier to get advantage, so long as you're not trying to snipe enemies across the map. Chance to hit goes up even further the moment you use Acid Splash or the plethora of acid arrows/bombs the game tosses around that reduce AC by 2, and even further if you get #Blessed.

I mean, really, it's not like you're running around with a 20% chance to hit enemies at all times or anything like that. Though to be fair, they've already *MASSIVELY* buffed all Drow, with them not having disadvantage on all attack rolls in sunlight. Should be considering yourselves lucky you're not sitting at a baseline 30% chance to hit an AC15 enemy if you play a drow because of that, goes for Minthara too.

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Thing is they are not being consistence with it on top of everything else. Worg in BG3 AC 13, HP 26 just as written in 5e


Last edited by Merry Mayhem; 18/10/20 04:14 AM.
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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by Isaac Springsong
To fix up a DRASTIC misconception that have been spouted as truth in this thread:

Larian has stated that the difficulty for this EA is the intended "Hard" difficulty. Not story mode, not normal difficulty. Hard. They are intentionally doing this to gather data on which fights may be harder or easier than intended.

This feels like "easy" with a lot of cheese sprinkled on top.

If this is really the "hard" difficulty the following things need to happen:

- Barrels get realistic weight and placement
- Long rest has consequences (like random encounters)
- Visibility cones are extended so you can't hide in plain sight and cheese with Stealth
- Disengage is an action
- Shove uses an attack
- Jump in combat triggers an AoO
- Free backstabs every turn are removed
- Equipping a Shield is an action (switching equipped weapons can be instant or a bonus action, but the end of turn Shield cheese needs to go)
- Armor can not be removed much less equipped in combat
- Wizards can not learn literally all spells (ok maybe this is a bug?)
- Magic pockets are removed so you can't use items from whoever's inventory who isn't even in the same fight
- Torch is not the best weapon
- add more enemies rather than give everyone fire and acid bombs and paint every battlefield in surfaces
- Goblins get their stats back smile



+1

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Originally Posted by Merry Mayhem
Think is they are not being consistence with it on top of everything else. Worg in BG3 AC 13, HP 26 just as written in 5e


Yeah, they're sometimes calculating HP/AC based on the standard rules, without compensating for the changed mechanics and changed systems. That's not going to work well.

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Missing in BG3 is fine compared to D&D, at least in smaller encounters. Why? Because, typically, 1 player is controlling 4 units. It's just a miss on one unit.

If I were to go in and do a redesign because 'missing isn't fun', I'd put in a 'graze' mechanic, so missing by some small amount would do some damage. That way, you'd feel like something was happening. Would be easy to crunch the numbers on rebalancing.

I'm also curious to see where Larian said EA was Hard difficulty.

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Them doing animations for "missing" but not actually missing would be really good. Enemies/Allies parrying the attack, deflecting arrows, etc. Could make "misses" more fun/less annoying.

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Originally Posted by UnderworldHades
Them doing animations for "missing" but not actually missing would be really good. Enemies/Allies parrying the attack, deflecting arrows, etc. Could make "misses" more fun/less annoying.


+1, just having every miss be the same exact sidestep animation and a big text telling me I fucked up isn't fun, and doesn't really make sense either. I just watched that dude sidestep that attack, I didn't miss, they dodged. My character didn't just fire an arrow and it hit at the guys feet, he actively moved out of the way of it. Giving a text of "dodged" and some animation/sound effect and texts for things like "blocked" or "deflected" would make it feel less like my character is a complete imbecile who can't even hit a dragon bigger than a barn and more like the dragon actually has tough scales.

Also really looking forward to watching a dragon sidestep attacks, should be...interesting.

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Originally Posted by vometia
I think part of the reason missing isn't fun is because that 75% chance can mean missing three or four times in a row, and then when you do finally hit, it rolls 1-2HP damage. Er... yay.

But to your original point, that does sound like a much more interesting way of playing against goblins. It's similar to games I've modded previously where I've substantially decreased enemy HP to stop them being bullet-sponges and significantly increased weapon damage and chance-to-hit, making fights much more dynamic (and also way more dangerous for me as well as whoever I'm fighting). My main not-fun things are the combination of a complete miss, even with a high chance to hit, frequently low damage and long, drawn-out fights. But some of that irritation may be due generally not being a fan of chance-based games which is what D&D is about AFAIK, so I feel my objections may be a little... well, off-target, which seems to be very much my current thing. D:


That doesn't make any sense, half the fights in Baldur's gate 3 involve elevated enemies in entrenched positions, which mechanically just does the same thing as *blinding* your party, so you have a 36% chance to hit, while they have 75%+

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Originally Posted by override367
Originally Posted by vometia
I think part of the reason missing isn't fun is because that 75% chance can mean missing three or four times in a row, and then when you do finally hit, it rolls 1-2HP damage. Er... yay.

But to your original point, that does sound like a much more interesting way of playing against goblins. It's similar to games I've modded previously where I've substantially decreased enemy HP to stop them being bullet-sponges and significantly increased weapon damage and chance-to-hit, making fights much more dynamic (and also way more dangerous for me as well as whoever I'm fighting). My main not-fun things are the combination of a complete miss, even with a high chance to hit, frequently low damage and long, drawn-out fights. But some of that irritation may be due generally not being a fan of chance-based games which is what D&D is about AFAIK, so I feel my objections may be a little... well, off-target, which seems to be very much my current thing. D:


That doesn't make any sense, half the fights in Baldur's gate 3 involve elevated enemies in entrenched positions, which mechanically just does the same thing as *blinding* your party, so you have a 36% chance to hit, while they have 75%+


Giving everyone in elevated positions advantage is a problem. I think it would be enough to increase or decrease the range of your archer when being on a higher or lower position. There are other rules for hitting something outside of range so that would work quite nice in my opinion. Same with throwing stuff. There is no need for an additional advantage/disadvantage on top of that.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
- Barrels get realistic weight and placement
- Long rest has consequences (like random encounters)
- Visibility cones are extended so you can't hide in plain sight and cheese with Stealth
- Disengage is an action
- Shove uses an attack
- Jump in combat triggers an AoO
- Free backstabs every turn are removed
- Equipping a Shield is an action (switching equipped weapons can be instant or a bonus action, but the end of turn Shield cheese needs to go)
- Armor can not be removed much less equipped in combat
- Wizards can not learn literally all spells (ok maybe this is a bug?)
- Magic pockets are removed so you can't use items from whoever's inventory who isn't even in the same fight
- Torch is not the best weapon
- add more enemies rather than give everyone fire and acid bombs and paint every battlefield in surfaces
- Goblins get their stats back smile


I really like that list but I would like to add a few more points that were mentionend it this thread:

- Elevated positions change range of archer units when targeting someone lower or higher but do not give advantage/disadvantage
- Use consistent stats among enemies (either use all the DnD values for enemies or none, adapting just some enemies and taking some as they are will lead to huge balance problems)
- Please no HP bloat (DnD rules are a little bit more complex than just 3 bloated HP stacks like in DOS2) => makes balancing much harder
- If you really want to use surfaces adapt them to DnD systems, you can e.g. make a constituion check every turn to determine whether you take damage and after success you are not burning/poisend etc. anymore. If there is only a 30% chance of a high constitution character to take damage you needn't to bloat anything

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